Actual purpose of the dantian?

[ChiDragon]

18 hours ago, ChimpSage said:

It is the field in which the elixir is created.

 

”Elixir Field.”

In Taoist term, yes it is. Normally, it was addressed as dantian, 丹田. It was referred and understood as the lower dantian(LDT).

[Taoist Texts]

6 hours ago, Cobie said:

@Taoist Texts aren’t they?

they are;)

[Trunk]

On 12/25/2023 at 11:06 AM, ChimpSage said:

In my opinion, the only true Dantian is the one used to create the elixir.

 

.. not really the true Dantian if it’s not being used for alchemy. It’s a false Dantian...

 

Better terminology ..

 

I think there's a wide range of what each of us understand as 'elixir' and 'dantian'.  Both varying from each other and also varying degrees of/from accuracy... accuracy of actual structure and from various teachings.

 

It's a worthy struggle to:

- understand what the teachings mean

- connect to our own experience in a grounded way, and not letting the terminology disconnect us from the curiosity and engagement  of "what is there?".

Every teacher I've heard speak has struggled to put their practices, and traditional teachings, into common english language that connects.  It's not easy.

 

... more later ...

[ChimpSage]

12 hours ago, Trunk said:

 

I think there's a wide range of what each of us understand as 'elixir' and 'dantian'.  Both varying from each other and also varying degrees of/from accuracy... accuracy of actual structure and from various teachings.

 

It's a worthy struggle to:

- understand what the teachings mean

- connect to our own experience in a grounded way, and not letting the terminology disconnect us from the curiosity and engagement  of "what is there?".

Every teacher I've heard speak has struggled to put their practices, and traditional teachings, into common english language that connects.  It's not easy.

 

... more later ...

I suppose, but at the end of the day, there is always a clear and concise definition for every term if you truly understand it.

 

Dantian is the elixir field. If the field is not used to build the elixir, it’s not a dantian.

 

Now, you can keep calling it that if you wish, but it is incorrect to do so. Doesn’t matter to me what other teachers or students do. Accuracy is what is important.

 

Are you using the field to generate the elixir? No? Then why call it Dantian? It is just a field. 
 

Being okay with inaccuracies without ever correcting them is how we lose the art

[Trunk]

2 hours ago, ChimpSage said:

I suppose, but at the end of the day, there is always a clear and concise definition for every term if you truly understand it.

 

Dantian is the elixir field. If the field is not used to build the elixir, it’s not a dantian.

 

...

 

Being okay with inaccuracies without ever correcting them is how we lose the art

 

All good points.

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~

There's 3 definitions of dantian that "I've heard".

- Ren-6 (or somewhat inward from that).

- The relationship between the navel and the life-gate (between the kidneys) - and other pts and tissues engaged in body - to shift into "embryonic breathing".  It's a deep-deep nourishing physical practice.

 

Both of the above are oriented around health and physicality (even if very deep and esoteric) harmonization, integration, nourishment.

 

- integrating with (what I call) the "deep-center", the small quiet still place, the mysterious pass (where the lower center intersects with the central channel ~ sushumna), to integrate with the One Medicine, Spacious Luminous Awareness, transpersonal awareness, etc.  This is what I think of as the most deeply authentic.

 

(And when I hear people say 'dantian', I am often uncertain about their intended meaning, and I have doubts that they understand what they intend to mean .. and I am curious as to what their actual experience is ..)

~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

That's just "what I've heard".  I do not claim to be deeply stable and fluently accomplished in this area.  I have enough experience to see that all 3 of the above are true, but still working on putting it all together with deeper stability and integration.  Can I connect to the One Medicine in my LDT fluently, reliably, (nearly) every time?  Nope.  Same re: embryonic breathing?  Nope.  And so I'm cautious about throwing around simple terms in navigating my own internal practice, that those simple terms mask the complexity of what I'm actually experiencing.

 

There are lots of layers of structure; there's a lot going on.  There's opening the various layers of tissue, there's sinew-changing through the abdominal area, (both of which are long term projects, perpetual even) ... and how that all connects to organs, channels, tissues, the rest of my body.  There's the processing of vitality and digestion.  There's a lot going on.

 

And, so, I am cautious in my own speaking (just for my own level, for myself, and not chastising anyone else for their expression - just slowly working out my own stuff) ... when I talk to myself about my practice ... while I know some taught maps and headed in those directions, and I do have some experience ... my own experience is not "fully baked" and I shy away from classic words that cover a complex territory with a single simple term that maybe I don't fully understand in the first place.  To stay engaged and connected to my actual process, of patiently placing attention (yi) in an area and simply being open, curious, patient, calm, tenacious, smooth integrative.

 

" all writing is a campaign against cliché. Not just clichés of the pen but clichés of the mind and clichés of the heart."

- Martin Amis

 

- Keith

 

p.s.

Often there are several (many, sometimes) interpretations for a Daoist term.  Different legit layers or methods, also misinterpretations.  it's often a mess.  I'd agree that connecting the LDT to the One Medicine is what makes it a *really* authentic dantian, but I'd also say that a lot of the work is to integrate the pieces, the layers - of very physical to very subtle - to integrate, work together harmoniously.

 

*ugh*, yet more ...

imho, any major dantian (or chakra) connects to the One Medicine at it's intersection with the central channel.  And, as that resonance develops, the whole central channel resonates with the Big Light like the filament of a light bulb.

 

[liminal_luke]

@Trunk  For some reason the light bulb as metaphor reminded me of your old Alchemicaltaoism site.  Ah, the good ole days....

[Cobie]

1 hour ago, Trunk said:

… the Big Light like the filament of a light bulb.

A light bulb being switched on or not, best shows in the darkness. 

[Cobie]

Lightbulbs, 

1 hour ago, Trunk said:

 

 

Stars, 

 

Golden flowers.

On 09/12/2023 at 4:01 AM, Trunk said:

 

Lightbulbs, Stars and Golden Flowers, to me they are all metaphors for the same Light. 
 

 

Edited December 28, 2023 by Cobie

[Cobie]

 

On 25/12/2023 at 3:06 AM, ChiDragon said:

I don't see what I see.
I don't hear what I hear.
That is the ultimate emptiness in meditation.

Dark night of the senses. 

 

37 minutes ago, Cobie said:

A light bulb being switched on or not, best shows in the darkness. 

 

Edited December 28, 2023 by Cobie

[ChimpSage]

1 hour ago, Trunk said:

 

All good points.

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~

There's 3 definitions of dantian that "I've heard".

- Ren-6 (or somewhat inward from that).

- The relationship between the navel and the life-gate (between the kidneys) - and other pts and tissues engaged in body - to shift into "embryonic breathing".  It's a deep-deep nourishing physical practice.

 

Both of the above are oriented around health and physicality (even if very deep and esoteric) harmonization, integration, nourishment.

 

- integrating with (what I call) the "deep-center", the small quiet still place, the mysterious pass (where the lower center intersects with the central channel ~ sushumna), to integrate with the One Medicine, Spacious Luminous Awareness, transpersonal awareness, etc.  This is what I think of as the most deeply authentic.

 

(And when I hear people say 'dantian', I am often uncertain about their intended meaning, and I have doubts that they understand what they intend to mean .. and I am curious as to what their actual experience is ..)

~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

That's just "what I've heard".  I do not claim to be deeply stable and fluently accomplished in this area.  I have enough experience to see that all 3 of the above are true, but still working on putting it all together with deeper stability and integration.  Can I connect to the One Medicine in my LDT fluently, reliably, (nearly) every time?  Nope.  Same re: embryonic breathing?  Nope.  And so I'm cautious about throwing around simple terms in navigating my own internal practice, that those simple terms mask the complexity of what I'm actually experiencing.

 

There are lots of layers of structure; there's a lot going on.  There's opening the various layers of tissue, there's sinew-changing through the abdominal area, (both of which are long term projects, perpetual even) ... and how that all connects to organs, channels, tissues, the rest of my body.  There's the processing of vitality and digestion.  There's a lot going on.

 

And, so, I am cautious in my own speaking (just for my own level, for myself, and not chastising anyone else for their expression - just slowly working out my own stuff) ... when I talk to myself about my practice ... while I know some taught maps and headed in those directions, and I do have some experience ... my own experience is not "fully baked" and I shy away from classic words that cover a complex territory with a single simple term that maybe I don't fully understand in the first place.  To stay engaged and connected to my actual process, of patiently placing attention (yi) in an area and simply being open, curious, patient, calm, tenacious, smooth integrative.

 

" all writing is a campaign against cliché. Not just clichés of the pen but clichés of the mind and clichés of the heart."

- Martin Amis

 

- Keith

 

p.s.

Often there are several (many, sometimes) interpretations for a Daoist term.  Different legit layers or methods, also misinterpretations.  it's often a mess.  I'd agree that connecting the LDT to the One Medicine is what makes it a *really* authentic dantian, but I'd also say that a lot of the work is to integrate the pieces, the layers - of very physical to very subtle - to integrate, work together harmoniously.

 

*ugh*, yet more ...

imho, any major dantian (or chakra) connects to the One Medicine at it's intersection with the central channel.  And, as that resonance develops, the whole central channel resonates with the Big Light like the filament of a light bulb.

 

All that being said, what is the harm in calling them the lower field, middle field, and upper field?

 

It is only Dantian when it is used to form elixir. That’s my final thought on it. All the stuff you said can be associated with field rather than Dantian.

 

And that’s what they are. Energetic fields.

[Nintendao]

12 minutes ago, ChimpSage said:

elixir

what is that?

[Sahaja]

There are a number of magnetic or yin qi fields that can be formed in/on the body (not just the three well known ones). I guess what makes it a Dan tian is its capability/use for forming and circulating the Dan (alchemical pill or elixir). One could argue that until you have a Dan it’s only a tian (field)  Or you could say that having the capability to use a Dan makes it a Dan tian. 

 

 

 

[Cobie]

11 minutes ago, Nintendao said:

what is that?

 

The external elixer was found to be deadly after almost a millennium of use. Time will tell if the internal form will be any better. 
 

 

[JKJB]

A little Red Cinnabar incl. Mercury is great for expelling the three corpse-demons and nine corpse-worms though. Red Mercury is also quite a mindfuck, go look at the video's on it. 

Toxic as damned but in tiny dosages these suckers repell off your energy way easier. 

Don't go consume this stuff though without knowing and reading a lot about this ofc. 

 

But they weren't crazy for using this in the past, people have just grown so unhealthy most don't realize the scale of negative entities feeding off of their system. 

[Maddie]

1 minute ago, JKJB said:

A little Red Cinnabar incl. Mercury is great for expelling the three corpse-demons and nine corpse-worms though. Red Mercury is also quite a mindfuck, go look at the video's on it. 

Toxic as damned but in tiny dosages these suckers repell off your energy way easier. 

Don't go consume this stuff though without knowing and reading a lot about this ofc. 

 

But they weren't crazy for using this in the past, people have just grown so unhealthy most don't realize the scale of negative entities feeding off of their system. 

 

Do not ingest mercury ever! 

[Trunk]

42 minutes ago, ChimpSage said:

All that being said, what is the harm in calling them ...

 

I wasn't trying to give advice to others about how to talk,

just shouting out my own working-things-out into the digital universe.

If my viewpt is of use, well that's lucky.  Easily could be not.

 

fwiw, imo, you've made legit & discerning pts.

Good conversation.

[JKJB]

6 minutes ago, Maddie said:

 

Do not ingest mercury ever! 

That is the exact words a corpse-demon would use.. 

 

 

 

[Maddie]

2 minutes ago, JKJB said:

That is the exact words a corpse-demon would use.. 

 

 

 

 

or.....Its also the exact words a sane person with even a slight knowledge of medical science would use. 

[JKJB]

Ah yes Western medical science. Always 10 steps behind, and ever-so arrogant to not think their bias today resembles the same biases that held back medicine in the West for thousands of Years.

[Cobie]

@steve JKJB might be a sockpuppet.

 

On 28/12/2023 at 9:39 PM, JKJB said:

A little Red Cinnabar incl. Mercury is great …

 

JKJB might be @Shadow_self https://www.thedaobums.com/topic/54064-nathan-brine-revised-material/?do=findComment&comment=992408  

 

 

Edited December 30, 2023 by Cobie

[ChimpSage]

1 hour ago, Nintendao said:

what is that?

Fusion of refined Yuan Qi and Yuan Shen.

 

Infinite engine of perpetual motion.

 

Spirit of Yang.

[ChiDragon]

On 12/17/2023 at 9:56 AM, Cobie said:

True.
 

Then again in modern Chinese 丹田 dan tian means ‘pubic region’. 

 

 

Where is this idea come from? It makes me wonder! Now, this dantian thing is really tangent off to never-never-land.

[Cobie]

3 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

Where is this idea come from? …

From the dictionary!

[ChiDragon]

4 minutes ago, Cobie said:

From the dictionary!

Oh! One of those things again!

[Cobie]

8 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

Oh! One of those things again!

 

Indeed! One of those things that native scholars like to ignore when interpreting characters!