Actual purpose of the dantian?

[ChiDragon]

18 minutes ago, Cobie said:

Exactly, these were definitely not the original intention.
 

The roots of Tarot are RC.  https://www.metmuseum.org/blogs/in-season/2016/tarot 

 

 

Off topic.

[Cobie]

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Edited July 19 by Cobie

[snowymountains]

5 hours ago, Maddie said:

What I wonder is if the Dan Tien is an actual objective "thing" that exists or if it is more of a subjective experiential thing felt?

 

I perceive it as subjective experiental, it's certainly not an objective anatomical point.

[Sahaja]

2 hours ago, snowymountains said:

 

I perceive it as subjective experiental, it's certainly not an objective anatomical point.

Actually there is a physical component that moves when reverse breathing is used in a certain way. There is a small sac in the center of the field that physically contracts and expands. There is also an energetic field around it that is magnetic in quality that interacts with certain points on the body like laogong (point in the palm) the LDT are will react physically (e.g. contract the surrounding tissue or rotate, etc.) to these points opening with or without your intention. Literally will happen if you are doing some unrelated activity and practice is furthest from your mind. it’s a bit surprising how consistent and reliable  it is. 

[Master Logray]

13 hours ago, Maddie said:

What I wonder is if the Dan Tien is an actual objective "thing" that exists or if it is more of a subjective experiential thing felt?

 

 

Some systems use the dantien as anchor point only, where the attention and the mind goes.  These dantien are there because they are at the centre of gravity of the body and involve with the golden/divine ratio;  and full of glands, neurons around.  Putting attention there would have beneficial effects than concentrate on the palm or under the feet.   In these systems, the usage of dantiens can shift.  At first it would be the LDT, then the UDT and MDT.   Some just between the LDT and MDT,  or even under the feet, or simply change from time to time.  It fits the original meaning/name "cultivation field", from where things happen.

 

The other systems, though less common, are what @Trunk and @Sahaja mentioned.  LDT is a physical thing.  There are a air sac or a space in the lower abdomen (not "thing" but hollow/Hui - emptiness).  To prepare it, physical efforts ranging from Chi Kung movements to hitting it with hard objects continuously.  The initial approach would be to tear off the tangled tissues from each other, giving it shape and space for fluid so that Chi can evolve there.  When the Chi evolves, it reaches same vibration as the cosmic energy, thereby charging the human system.   The building up is pure mechanical, the mind doesn't have to be pure.   Some schools that starts with sitting would skip this process or just have regular exercises.   A primitive tribe in South Africa has the same tradition and said to be able to have some psychic results. 

 

Personally I would not recommend this "rough" approach.  It may be more suitable for young cultivators. 

 

As to the location of LDT, there are naturally many views.  Anyhow it can be roughly divided into 2, base on purposes.  The alchemical schools usually needs to have a precise location, a single point.   The martial based schools would prefer a general area, but not the whole lower abdomen.   Because in times of fighting, a person needs to amass more Chi (defence Chi in TCM) of a bigger area to get the power quickly.  Chi, air, fluids, electrical impulses are all needed.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Maddie]

And what's typically seen as the primary method to build the dan tien? Is it abdominal breathing? That's what I've always heard.

[Master Logray]

39 minutes ago, Maddie said:

And what's typically seen as the primary method to build the dan tien? Is it abdominal breathing? That's what I've always heard.

 

The system you belong will determine the method applied on dantien.  e.g. focus on dantien in sitting based cultivation.

[S:C]

17 minutes ago, Master Logray said:

The system you belong will determine the method

How does one know which system one belongs to? (Serious question!)

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

8 minutes ago, S:C said:

How does one know which system one belongs to? (Serious question!)

Ask your teacher. If you don’t have a teacher, then you don’t belong to a system. 

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

1 hour ago, Maddie said:

And what's typically seen as the primary method to build the dan tien? Is it abdominal breathing? That's what I've always heard.

Like @Master Logray says, everyone will have a different answer depending on their system. In mine it’s a combination of standing neigong and seated stillness, both with abdominal breathing. 

Edited December 31, 2023 by Pak_Satrio

[S:C]

17 minutes ago, Pak_Satrio said:

Ask your teacher. If you don’t have a teacher, then you don’t belong to a system. 

I cannot be sure. I once asked someone to teach me, without asking for qualifications.
He didn’t ask what, just smiled and gave me homework. Which met the topic I had been thinking of while asking: how to better deal with one’s emotions (nothing spiritual). 
I have never known which system if any he works in. 
At some point, things just got weird. Have never known, now…
 

So no need for this practice, then, I guess? Thought about taking a leave of absence anyways. I ain’t getting anywhere here these days.

Edited December 31, 2023 by S:C

[kakapo]

On 12/16/2023 at 11:50 AM, HumanElectric said:

Everyone has their own opinions as to what the purpose of the dantian is, or if it even exists. What is your opinion of the dantian? If you can back up your claims with reliable data, even better!

 

I’ll go first though, in my opinion, it’s main purpose is to store excess qi. It’s secondary purpose is to provide one with vitality, that can be accessed in times of individual want or subconscious need. 

 

Side note* This thread is only intended to start light-hearted conversation, that we all may be able to learn from. Let’s keep things on a positive note.

 

I think your question reads like this:

 

What is the purpose of a knife?

 

Some people may use a knife for cutting up ingredients and cooking.

 

Some people may use a knife for self defense.

 

Some people may use a knife for surgery to save a life, or treat an ailment.

 

It really depends who you are asking, and in what context you are doing the asking.

 

In some traditions the LDT is used to store Yang Chi for later use.

 

There are thousands of schools of thought as to the purpose of the LDT is.

 

My advice to you would be first to clearly define what you are trying to achieve, and then look for schools that can offer you good hard objective evidence they do that, and then ask them what the actual purpose of the LDT is.

 

If you take everyone's opinion as equally valid without regard to evidence, then you will be lost in nothing but static.  You need a way to separate the signal from the noise.

Edited December 31, 2023 by kakapo

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

13 minutes ago, S:C said:

I cannot be sure. I once asked someone to teach me, without asking for qualifications.
He didn’t ask what, just smiled and gave me homework. 
I have never known which system if any he works in. 
 

So no need for this practice, then, I guess? Thought about taking a leave of absence anyways. I ain’t getting anywhere here these days.

It’s good to know what system your practices come from, so you can see if it’s a dead end, or there is room for progression. Also if the system has a bad reputation of practitioners getting harmed from the practice or not having any progress at all. Do your research before committing to something that you will spend a lot of your life doing. 

[S:C]

6 minutes ago, Pak_Satrio said:

It’s good to know what system your practices come from, so you can see if it’s a dead end, or there is room for progression. Also if the system has a bad reputation of practitioners getting harmed from the practice or not having any progress at all. Do your research before committing to something that you will spend a lot of your life doing. 

I see. He was hard to talk to and I never got any straight and true answer from him. I wasn’t even looking for something spiritual. Just dealing with emotions, he seemed to know better than I. 
 

and now I am lost  

 

doesn’t help to whine, don’t think the practices advocated here would be doing my case any good.  

 

[Maddie]

32 minutes ago, S:C said:

 I once asked someone to teach me, without asking for qualifications.

 

Never ask for financial advice from a poor person.

[S:C]

As I said, he seemed to do well with emotions . (I might be wrong)

 

So does the dan tien practice have anything to do with dealing with emotions better?

On a tangent: which system has a practice that teaches this and doesn’t rely on classic meditation?

[Maddie]

Just now, S:C said:

So does the dan tien practice have anything to do with dealing with emotions better?

 

That's what I heard which is what got me interested in it in the first place but I did not find it to this effect. In fact quite the opposite I feel like it brought up a lot of stuff I have been suppressing and made my emotions more volatile. But this is just based on my personal experience. But it's also why I don't do it any longer.

[S:C]

Interesting, @Maddie I do remember a different practice suggested to women than men, by Mrs. Edmund/Mr. Mitchell. Heart center for women (emotions), lower belly (base desires) for men. 
And women have a better tendency for sound practice, I remember… 

[Maddie]

9 minutes ago, S:C said:

Interesting, @Maddie I do remember a different practice suggested to women than men, by Mrs. Edmund/Mr. Mitchell. Heart center for women (emotions), lower belly (base desires) for men. 
And women have a better tendency for sound practice, I remember… 

 

Lol mantra is one of my main practices 😌

[Sahaja]

1 hour ago, Maddie said:

 

That's what I heard which is what got me interested in it in the first place but I did not find it to this effect. In fact quite the opposite I feel like it brought up a lot of stuff I have been suppressing and made my emotions more volatile. But this is just based on my personal experience. But it's also why I don't do it any longer.

Trauma (both physical and mental) is often stored/stuck in the body as a form of qi called xie qi. Part of the process of neigong frees this up and gets rid of it which is healthy but can result in the temporary resurfacing of these issues. Yoga can do this as well.  However for otherwise mentally healthy people it is possible to clear this unhealthy qi without getting stuck there. For example you might be crying for a limited time but not know why and not really feel bad.  Or it might come out as zi fa gong. Obviously the ability to clear will be affected by the severity of the trauma.  This is where a good teacher can help you manage your response. However, folks with a history of diagnosed mental health issues should avoid  qi gong/neigong entirely as it can exacerbate these pre-existing conditions. 
 

To your other question on (re) forming the Dan tian - in addition to standing and seated practices mentioned that sink the qi and stretch the fascia/interstitial tissue - there are some specific qi gongs that use laogong to help reshape the area. Once laogong is open just passing it in front of this area will cause contractions (not painful but can be intense, if that makes sense). These qi gongs use this capability to help reconsolidate and reshape the area. Passive awareness  of the area  (attention without intention/not concentration) is a central part of the practice. 

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

2 hours ago, S:C said:

As I said, he seemed to do well with emotions . (I might be wrong)

 

So does the dan tien practice have anything to do with dealing with emotions better?

On a tangent: which system has a practice that teaches this and doesn’t rely on classic meditation?

I would say do a system that involves dantien meditation to bring out the suppressed trauma and emotions so you can be rid of them for good. Might be difficult or annoying to deal with them when they arise but you will be much better afterwards.

 

Check out this post by @senseless virtue, it might help you out. Especially the section about dealing with emotions and trauma releasing exercises:

 

 

Edited December 31, 2023 by Pak_Satrio

[Master Logray]

3 hours ago, S:C said:

I see. He was hard to talk to and I never got any straight and true answer from him. I wasn’t even looking for something spiritual. Just dealing with emotions, he seemed to know better than I. 
 

and now I am lost  

 

doesn’t help to whine, don’t think the practices advocated here would be doing my case any good.  

 

 

If you can't make him talk, then can only look at the results (of your reasonable efforts).

[Cobie]

.

Edited January 30 by Cobie

[Trunk]

[Sahaja]

On 12/31/2023 at 2:26 AM, Master Logray said:

 

 

Some systems use the dantien as anchor point only, where the attention and the mind goes.  These dantien are there because they are at the centre of gravity of the body and involve with the golden/divine ratio;  and full of glands, neurons around.  Putting attention there would have beneficial effects than concentrate on the palm or under the feet.   In these systems, the usage of dantiens can shift.  At first it would be the LDT, then the UDT and MDT.   Some just between the LDT and MDT,  or even under the feet, or simply change from time to time.  It fits the original meaning/name "cultivation field", from where things happen.

 

The other systems, though less common, are what @Trunk and @Sahaja mentioned.  LDT is a physical thing.  There are a air sac or a space in the lower abdomen (not "thing" but hollow/Hui - emptiness).  To prepare it, physical efforts ranging from Chi Kung movements to hitting it with hard objects continuously.  The initial approach would be to tear off the tangled tissues from each other, giving it shape and space for fluid so that Chi can evolve there.  When the Chi evolves, it reaches same vibration as the cosmic energy, thereby charging the human system.   The building up is pure mechanical, the mind doesn't have to be pure.   Some schools that starts with sitting would skip this process or just have regular exercises.   A primitive tribe in South Africa has the same tradition and said to be able to have some psychic results. 

 

Personally I would not recommend this "rough" approach.  It may be more suitable for young cultivators. 

 

As to the location of LDT, there are naturally many views.  Anyhow it can be roughly divided into 2, base on purposes.  The alchemical schools usually needs to have a precise location, a single point.   The martial based schools would prefer a general area, but not the whole lower abdomen.   Because in times of fighting, a person needs to amass more Chi (defence Chi in TCM) of a bigger area to get the power quickly.  Chi, air, fluids, electrical impulses are all needed.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

There are a number of places on the body where these magnetic yin fields can arise in addition to the Dan tians (e.g. perineum, yellow court, etc) Once there is sufficient opening and connectivity in the body just the awareness touching these areas will trigger their fields. these areas can be used in consort in cultivation to work with and build  qi holistically across the whole body if it is open enough and the mind is sufficiently absorbed into the body. There is even connectivity generated to areas outside these fields allowing one to affect the yin fields and surrounding physical tissues  by subtle mental or physical adjustments to body areas far away from them ( or even from points outside the body). The size and shape of points, channels and fields  and  sensitivity to them can also change depending on  where one is on their path and on which path.  All this change/variability/connectivity (while being very Daoist ) can be confusing and a pain for people trying to map out and hold to a fixed view of the subtle body. My advice  is listen to your body, then listen to the teachers and texts, then listen you your body again, then laugh at yourself for overthinking it, let it go and practice some more. 
 

the ldt itself is congenitally energetically connected to points in each direction that allow it to be used as an engine for cultivation. While these connections directly relate it to the whole abdomen, I  think one typically has to reestablish the connections to these specific points before it can be used this way.