Chi vs Kundalini

[Eden]

Where does Kundalini (or Candali as tibetans call it) tie into Taoist Qi Gong? To me they seem like different energies, Chi vs Kundalini... 

I have spent months doing Qi Gong, abdominal breathing, sublimating Jing to Chi... but it doesnt really seem to invoke Kundalini energy... where as with a more hatha yoga type practice it seems to directly be stimulating kundalini energy..

These seem like mutually exclusive paths and are in no way complemetary except maybe Taoist Neidan is to create a healthy body to engage in kundalini yogas.

[markern]

When you say that one of your practices seems to stimulate Kundalini and the other only stimulates chi, how do you differentiate between them. What makes you believe what the yogic practices stimulates is Kundalini?

Edited January 13 by markern

[Eden]

idk never mind

[Sahaja]

My understanding is that kundalini/chakra equivalent  development  doesn’t come into the picture until one is at the stage of harmonizing the shen.   It takes a good number of years of cultivation to get to this point. Similarly in classical hatha yoga systems like the Kanphata Nath’s,  one prepares the body with advanced practices  for a good number of years before they get to this point, and then only under close supervision of the teacher. If you are attempting to raise kundalini I hope you have a good guide who has successfully traveled the yogic path beyond the acquired mind to help prepare you and help you manage the risks 

 

it’s difficult for me to comment on your experiences of kundalini energy vs  qi. I do know that there is a significant overlap between descriptions I’ve read and heard of kundalini symptoms  and symptoms of zi fa gong and yang qi rising to the head that are often associated with qi gong/neigong but that can also arise in hatha yoga. 

[f-man]

i

Edited January 10 by f-man

[Sahaja]

On 12/31/2023 at 3:07 PM, Sahaja said:

My understanding is that kundalini/chakra equivalent  development  doesn’t come into the picture until one is at the stage of harmonizing the shen.   It takes a good number of years of cultivation to get to this point. Similarly in classical hatha yoga systems like the Kanphata Nath’s,  one prepares the body with advanced practices  for a good number of years before they get to this point, and then only under close supervision of the teacher. If you are attempting to raise kundalini I hope you have a good guide who has successfully traveled the yogic path beyond the acquired mind to help prepare you and help you manage the risks 

 

it’s difficult for me to comment on your experiences of kundalini energy vs  qi. I do know that there is a significant overlap between descriptions I’ve read and heard of kundalini symptoms  and symptoms of zi fa gong and yang qi rising to the head that are often associated with qi gong/neigong but that can also arise in hatha yoga. 

One more thing…I’ve heard Kundalini  (in addition to association with rising qi) also is associated with the spinal fluid as being an important mechanism behind it (csf creating a connection between the sacral area and pineal gland and related areas in the brain). I’ve heard this from multiple, unrelated sources.  A bit more mechanistic/ physical view than shen but in some ways consistent with that. 

[anshino23]

On 1/1/2024 at 7:51 PM, f-man said:

I think kundalini is the same as chi, but perceived in an altered state of mind, like sleep or drugs. 

 

It will feel very strong accompanied with loud internal noises. It feels like an alien force in your body with a will of its own. Like being possessed.

 

I used to get these 'episodes' as a child when relaxing. I thought I was dying. 

 

But yeah I really don't know.

 

Sounds like Zifagong and Yang Qi. 

[Dedicated]

I venture that Neidan might be similar to Kundalini, and chi is part of both. I am currently learning about Neidan and purposely avoiding Kundalini as it has been too misunderstood. 

[Antares]

36 minutes ago, Dedicated said:

and purposely avoiding Kundalini as it has been too misunderstood. 

I agree. First of all we need to make research when the term of Kundalini appeared and who brought it to the public. These days very often people trying to do smth not even having understanding what they do and why. 

[f-man]

On 1/5/2024 at 10:20 PM, anshino23 said:

 

Sounds like Zifagong and Yang Qi. 

 

Edited January 10 by f-man

[Antares]

17 minutes ago, f-man said:

True! Maybe that is the daoist equivalent for kundalini.

 

There is no need to mix these systems and look for equivalents. Chose one and follow it

[f-man]

On 1/6/2024 at 2:29 PM, Antares said:

 

There is no need to mix these systems and look for equivalents. Chose one and follow it

 

 

Edited January 10 by f-man

[Sahaja]

My understanding is that certain Daoist lineages utilize systems that are comparable to the 7 chakras of yoga and work with them through arts like shen gong (spirit skill) , xin ling li (psychic ability development) or guan chan (realized perception). They go by various names - 7 wheels (lun), 7 cauldrons (dings) or 7 fires (huo). They generally correspond in location to the 7 chakra system from yoga and have  characteristics in common. Most importantly they are viewed as different than the Dan tians and involve work at the level of shen. I think they would say you are not dealing with this level unless you are dealing with  siddhis (as is evident in the names of the practices). 
 

In the traditional yoga of the Kanphata Naths (Gorakhnath some of the mahasiddhas are part of this tradition) they work with advanced practices like Shakti chalani (churning involving nauli and khechari)  for a decade plus before they are talking about moving kundalini into the central channel and piercing the chakras all the way up. This would only be after mastering difficult asana including mulabandasana and candasana that are used in this process. They would also say that  siddhis are a natural outcome of this process and appropriately responding to them is an important part of the spiritual process. 
 

while I agree that one should follow a specific path or process and not mix,  as embodied paths there are things in common that have been shared for a very long time. I think it’s better to know  and put things in context than speculate and make poor decisions based on this. To practice at this level is very advanced, requires an experienced guide and few make it this far. 

[Antares]

10 minutes ago, f-man said:

Something wrong in looking what is equivalent in different systems?

It is not wrong but useless. If you want to eat banana you pick it up and eat. You dont have to call your friend in India and ask him how people eating bananas there. Of course this is interesting, but useless. May be you can ask him what sort of bananas is the best one and this would be another story. Or may be how to cook bananas. If your teacher says you to do some method you dont have to call Indian guru and ask him how he would do this method. I assure you Indian guru has no clue how to do it. Because he is attached to his system and his system of believes and his systematic approach to the enlightenment process. More over that, Indian system lost this understanding hundreds years ago

[f-man]

On 1/6/2024 at 5:17 PM, Antares said:

It is not wrong but useless. If you want to eat banana you pick it up and eat. You dont have to call your friend in India and ask him how people eating bananas there. Of course this is interesting, but useless. May be you can ask him what sort of bananas is the best one and this would be another story. Or may be how to cook bananas. If your teacher says you to do some method you dont have to call Indian guru and ask him how he would do this method. I assure you Indian guru has no clue how to do it. Because he is attached to his system and his system of believes and his systematic approach to the enlightenment process. More over that, Indian system lost this understanding hundreds years ago

 

Edited January 10 by f-man

[Neirong]

3 minutes ago, f-man said:

I think all the indian and chinese terminology is pretty useless for a western mind, we don't really know what they mean. Just speculation, trying to seem knowledgeable.

 

I don't follow any system, I don't have any teacher. I do have time for practice, so I try stuff and see what works. Magical words don't help me in any way.

Has nothing to do with the mind, it is all about experience. When you have direct experience of cultivation, the barriers between traditions will start to fade. All traditions and teachings exist in one wholesome reality. You can do different physical exercises and training, but there is only one physical body you can train.

I generally recommend our students not to bother with various books until they get 3+ years of training and direct experience, then it becomes much easier to comprehend any esoteric book or teaching, because you can relate to it on your own experience. When you don't have any real training experience, reading books leads to confusion and mindless/pointless never-ending discussions.
 

[Antares]

29 minutes ago, f-man said:

I don't follow any system, I don't have any teacher. I do have time for practice, so I try stuff and see what works.

Let me guess, you do practice from the books and videos?

[f-man]

On 1/6/2024 at 5:43 PM, Neirong said:

Has nothing to do with the mind, it is all about experience. When you have direct experience of cultivation, the barriers between traditions will start to fade. 
 

 

Edited January 10 by f-man

[f-man]

On 1/6/2024 at 5:55 PM, Antares said:

Let me guess, you do practice from the books and videos?

 

Edited January 10 by f-man

[Antares]

1 minute ago, f-man said:

 

I have gathered enough information and techniques during my 15 years of practice, don't really need more, just practice what I know to work in my situation

Are there any daoist lineage's methods among them?

[f-man]

On 1/6/2024 at 6:26 PM, Antares said:

Are there any daoist lineage's methods among them?

 

Edited January 10 by f-man

[Antares]

1 minute ago, f-man said:

my own way.

in that case it has no any relation to the "daoist discussion".

[f-man]

On 1/6/2024 at 6:44 PM, Antares said:

in that case it has no any relation to the "daoist discussion".

 

Edited January 10 by f-man

[Antares]

1 hour ago, Neirong said:

When you have direct experience of cultivation, the barriers between traditions will start to fade. All traditions and teachings exist in one wholesome reality. You can do different physical exercises and training, but there is only one physical body you can train.

 

That does not mean results will be the same.

[Master Logray]

1 hour ago, f-man said:

 

I think all the indian and chinese terminology is pretty useless for a western mind, we don't really know what they mean. Just speculation, trying to seem knowledgeable.

 

I don't follow any system, I don't have any teacher. I do have time for practice, so I try stuff and see what works. Magical words don't help me in any way.

 

 

There are a few problems for this approach, even from a western viewpoint.   Firstly, there is a question of efficiency.  Your time and resources are limited and there are opportunity costs.   And cultivation shows result slowly.  So it is hard to determine the effectiveness.   Another point is these arts claim to have significant rewards.  Significant rewards must come with significant risks.  Finally it is not wise to trek alone into the wild.  Get company, guides and read map/manual/travel stories beforehand is simply prudent.