Reflecting on TDB

[Nungali]

20 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

I wrote two further posts for this topic now and both times I deleted it by a silly mistake, so I take this as an admonition to my ego to quit with this topic. Enough has already been said.

 

Unless your ' Id ' is subverting you  ....    

[Maddie]

18 minutes ago, Nungali said:

 

I dislike him because he is dangerous and knows that a certain percentage of the population is  very 'unevolved' (or maybe he thinks they are more evolved - like him )  and he knows how to manipulate them to support his own biases  and possibly create a new fascistic , gun toting hate empire .

 

if that is coming from my ego  ....... good ego !  I am proud of you .... good boy  ...

 

 

 

 

I think a good way to differentiate this would be the example of the Buddha. 

 

The Buddha would point out things that people did all the time that were not skillful. This is wisdom.

 

What the Buddha did not do was get angry about unskillful people. This is also wisdom. 

 

So maybe if the Buddha were alive today he might say something like "yeah Trump is a dig bat, but I'm not going to loose my peace because of it."  

[Cobie]

1 hour ago, wandelaar said:

… Enough has already been said.

 

Exactly. Imo your post said it all: 

 

On 22/12/2023 at 12:08 AM, wandelaar said:

 

This is muddled reasoning. Without an ego we wouldn't be anybody, or rather an empty body, or in any case not an ordinary human being. We wouldn't have preferences, character traits, etc. It's hard to see how such a "person" could develop an interest in politics let alone take a stand on issues. So in a trivial sense it is true that a hypothetical person without an ego would not be upset by Trump or at least not as long as Trump wouldn't directly attack the person. Maybe in the later case some basic instincts might kick in...

 

Now does that prove that my ego is the cause of me getting upset by Trump. No - because there are plenty of people with an ego who like Trump and don't get upset about him at all. Thus the ego should rather be considered as a necessary psychological condition for having any evaluative reaction to Trump at all, not as the sole cause of me getting upset about him. The reasons why I get upset about Trump and the reasons why others don't and rather like him are the crucial thing here. Blaming my ego is besides the point.

 

Anyway the concept of an ego-less person is most likely an illusion.

…  “reasons” … [putting it here for emphasis]
 

 

Edited December 23, 2023 by Cobie

[Sanity Check]

As a child I grew up watching chinese martial arts films. Pressure points, chi, meridians, iron body and related topics were things I was introduced to at a young age through works of fiction. On some level, I always thought those things were real and wanted to learn about them. But was always busy with other things & never able to pursue it. 

 

Around 2017 someone I knew from an mma forum began posting about the functional and governor channels. This rekindled my interest & I began to read a little about it. 

 

 

 

 

[Sir Darius the Clairvoyent]

I am a newcomer and amateur on the subjects, but i must say that i am impressed both by the qaulity of the contend aswell as the atmophere and the members willingness to help me understand.

[Trunk]

It’s been a rough year.  I’m no astrologer, but geez.

 

This Christmas morning I’m reflecting and … a lot of treasured things come and go, things are built, things are up-ended; it happens.  What continues to be of meaning?  What continues to be inspiring and renewing?  Perennially: the internal process.

 

And, by extension, the community process of muddling through, clarification, mutual support.

 

Thank you each for sharing your sincerity, 

your practice,

your experience.

 

- Keith

 

[liminal_luke]

48 minutes ago, Trunk said:

 

And, by extension, the community process of muddling through, clarification, mutual support.

 

 

We Bums don't always agree with each other -- and sometimes things can get ugly -- but there's a lot of sincere thought and self-examination in these pages.  However bummed out we may feel about "current events" and the state of the world, there's good reason to celebrate our little corner of cyberspace.  Here's to all the wonderful Bums who have shared a bit of their lives with me, educated me, supported me, and helped me grow.  Cheers to you all.

Edited December 25, 2023 by liminal_luke

[Daniel]

On 12/21/2023 at 1:09 PM, wandelaar said:

Then how could I have gotten upset about that if it was all because of my ego?

 

I propose it's because you can recognise right from wrong, and can predict the harm and suffering of others when wrong actions are permitted. 

 

[Daniel]

On 12/21/2023 at 3:11 PM, Maddie said:

therefore delusion

 

there it is... the classic buddhist insult against any who disagree...

[whocoulditbe?]

9 minutes ago, Daniel said:

there it is... the classic buddhist insult against any who disagree...

or who agrees.

[Cobie]

15 hours ago, Daniel said:

… classic buddhist …

I still think (hope) this is not actually a Buddhist thing, but a thing some people do in any philosophy/religion.

It’s called ‘deflection’ (in psychology). Methods intended for introspection, being abused to discredit others.

 

 

Edited December 26, 2023 by Cobie

[silent thunder]

.

Edited December 26, 2023 by silent thunder

[liminal_luke]

Among Buddhists, words like "ignorance" or "delusion" are technical terms and don't carry the pejorative punch they might in other contexts.  If I'm talking politics and someone calls my view of some cultural controversy ignornant, oh boy, those are fighting words. If a Buddhist says the same thing I just shrug.  Everybody who is not enlightened --so, basically everybody -- is ignorant.  No big deal. 

[Nungali]

I love your shrug Luke .    yes ! 'No big deal '   .

 

I get insults, criticisms , outrage at me all the time   and I  .....   yeah, thats valid, or 'I hope you have a better day ' or even 'fuck off' .  And some say the same to me  .

 

Mhe ... we all 'messed up '  .... in some ways .

 

yet, when trying to be nice, supportive, helpful ... apparently I fail (with some ) and best intentions are interpreted in a way alien to me  ... I am not supplying what is 'needed' , so some sort of  'disaster ' unfolds  .

 

Instead of it being 'no big deal '  . 

 

 

[Daniel]

1 hour ago, liminal_luke said:

so, basically everybody -- is ignorant. 

 

The speaker is not including themself as ignorant. 

 

1 hour ago, liminal_luke said:

If a Buddhist says the same thing [calls my view ignorant]...

 

They cannot call anyone ignorant if they consider themself ignorant.

 

1 hour ago, liminal_luke said:

Among Buddhists, words like "ignorance" or "delusion" are technical terms and don't carry the pejorative punch they might in other contexts

 

I think it's important to note that I am often accused of apologetics in an attempt to discredit my ideas...  That said, you might be right about this technicality.  None the less, the one accusing all others as delutional is not, and cannot be including themself.  

 

Their ego MUST be assigning superiority to themself in order to make the accusation technical assessment of another person's faults.

 

No one here is going to be honest about criticising buddhism, if they are buddhist.  There's no reason to argue about it.  But I reserve the right to point out the hypocrisy and the arrogance when it presents itself.  Maybe someday the buddhists here will listen and adapt.

 

Edited December 25, 2023 by Daniel

[Sir Darius the Clairvoyent]

6 minutes ago, Daniel said:

None the less, the one accusing all others as delutional is not, and cannot be including themself

I do not follow Daniel 

[Daniel]

Just now, NaturaNaturans said:

I do not follow Daniel 

 

Um... I never asked you to follow me, and it's quite obvious you don't.  So, what's your point?

[Sir Darius the Clairvoyent]

Just now, Daniel said:

 

Um... I never asked you to follow me, and it's quite obvious you don't.  So, what's your point?

That i dont see how that logically follows.

[Daniel]

3 minutes ago, NaturaNaturans said:

That i dont see how that logically follows.

 

If someone is delusional, how can they accurately assess anyone else's delusion?  Their own conclusions about another individual's delusions could be delusional.

 

If someone knows they, themself are blind, then they would not be able to accurately assess another person's eyesight.

[Sir Darius the Clairvoyent]

21 minutes ago, Daniel said:

 

If someone is delusional, how can they accurately assess anyone else's delusion?  Their own conclusions about another individual's delusions could be delusional.

 

If someone knows they, themself are blind, then they would not be able to accurately assess another person's eyesight.

I mean, we are all «not perfect» to put it mildly. It is really easy to recognize these traits in others, but hard in one self. Sometimes you (in general, not as in daniel) need to here from another perspective 

[liminal_luke]

1 hour ago, Daniel said:

 

If someone is delusional, how can they accurately assess anyone else's delusion?  Their own conclusions about another individual's delusions could be delusional.

 

 

You're delusional, Daniel.  Then again, I'm an ignorant queen* so you needn't take my opinion too seriously.

 

(Well, I'm not sure about the queen part but ignorant? Definitely.)

Edited December 26, 2023 by liminal_luke

[whocoulditbe?]

1 hour ago, Daniel said:

The speaker is not including themself as ignorant. 

The appeal of the rhetoric about universal delusion is that it includes the speaker. It enhances the urgency of practice, while also providing built-in forgiveness for inadequacy to it.

[whocoulditbe?]

@Daniel might be right, something the belief in universal ignorance adds to the realization of personal ignorance is protection for the ego. On the other extreme, you could meditate on the possibility that you are the only deluded being left in existence, and imagine that everyone except you is an enlightened being who appears for your sake. But that point of view would be less compassionate and equally narcissistic.

[Daniel]

2 hours ago, NaturaNaturans said:

I mean, we are all «not perfect» to put it mildly. It is really easy to recognize these traits in others, but hard in one self. Sometimes you (in general, not as in daniel) need to here from another perspective 

 

This has no connection to the logical truth:

 

If someone is declaring another person deluded they are declaring that they, themself, are NOT deluded.

 

You seem to want me to admit that, in general,  I can be wrong about ... stuff.  Of course I can be wrong about stuff, but, I'm not wrong about this.  I am very happy to hear another persepctive.  Go ahead.  Please, tell me about how a person who is deluded can accurately assess another person's delusion.  I am listening.

 

I am confident about this, because, I have put a lot of thought into it.  I put a lot of thought into everything I post here.   This is a good thing.  That's why people rarely, if ever, refute what I've written.  And the community doesn't like that.  The community wants to see my confidence knocked down.

 

Go ahead.  Knock it down.  I would absolutely love to be proven wrong, and or, to learn sometthing new.  Show me what I'm missing about this.

 

Edited December 26, 2023 by Daniel

[Daniel]

1 hour ago, liminal_luke said:

 

You're delusional, Daniel.  Then again, I'm an ignorant queen* so you needn't take my opinion too seriously.

 

(Well, I'm not sure about the queen part but ignorant? Definitely.)

 

I'm delusional about what?

 

38 minutes ago, whocoulditbe? said:

The appeal of the rhetoric about universal delusion is that it includes the speaker. It enhances the urgency of practice, while also providing built-in forgiveness for inadequacy to it.

 

Maybe.  But isn't the urgency a delusion?