Reflecting on TDB

[Cobie]

8 hours ago, Master Logray said:

If delusion is the condition of everybody, some sort of built-in condition for human, why would we need to be enlightened for this condition?  or even having this conversation.  It is just like we have 4 limbs, and everybody is content with it, until someone says it is possible to have 8 limbs, which is better.  Why creates a need from nowhere and this very action creates desire and in turn, sufferings? …

(my highlight)

That’s how mendicant monks make a living. 

 

Quote

…  Is it possible to deal with craving/aversion directly?

Of course you can. 
 

 

Edited December 27, 2023 by Cobie

[Nungali]

5 hours ago, Daniel said:

 

I see you ignored the 50% of the content of the post to which you replied.  It's the same thing you did to Brad's post.  This confirms what I wrote earlier:

 

 

Cropping out and/or ignoring content in order to shield oneself from criticism is dishonest or delusional.

 

 

Sure, but if you are deluded you are not in a position to determine if the buddha is correct.  It is certainly irresponsible to preach it if one is deluded and cannot accurately assess its potential for harm.

 

Is the "ego" or "delusion" the problem with this starving baby?  Is the craving for food a problem?  Is the craving to feed the baby a problem?  Is the aversion to allowing it to starve a problem?  Eliminating these cravings and aversions causes harm.

 

 

 

You are annoying .

 

YOU yourself ignored  the proof I put up against something you claimed , and when I insisted you put me on ignore and and made a lot of noise about it .

 

Pot and kettle mate !

 

and stop using those poor unfortunates in your  pics to make your wrong point via an attempted emotive reaction from your  current 'target '  and 'audience'.

[whocoulditbe?]

5 minutes ago, Nungali said:

napalmed children, Gaza, irreversible environmental destruction

I'm not sure the news cycle makes people any less passive in practice.

[Maddie]

3 minutes ago, Cobie said:

 

Because that’s how mendicant monks make a living. 

 

Yes I'm sure forsaking all possessions becoming celibate and begging for one meal a day is a great way to become rich LOL

[Nungali]

5 hours ago, Maddie said:

 

I would have not guessed in a million years this topic would get so many people so upset lol 

 

 

'Reflecting on Daobums '   

 

The good old days , they had this thing called 'The Pit' . It was a public closed section where such issues where left to be wrestled out in the mud pit .

 

bring back the pit !   I been saying fer years now !.

 

 

[liminal_luke]

12 minutes ago, Maddie said:

 

 I even had one person think that was I said about Buddhism was so outrageous that they no longer wish to speak to me. Pretty extreme but also weird lol. Today was weird. 

 

Your friends and family will probably be surprised to learn that the most controversial thing about you here on TDB is your knowledge of Buddhism.

[Nungali]

3 hours ago, Apech said:

 

 

Ahhh , thats better ! 

 

Welcome back to the  '  real world  '  !

[Maddie]

4 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

 

Your friends and family will probably be surprised to learn that the most controversial thing about you here on TDB is your knowledge of Buddhism.

 

It's that Rockstar lifestyle of mine lol, I'm a Buddhist baby! 😎

[Maddie]

10 minutes ago, Nungali said:

 

'Reflecting on Daobums '   

 

The good old days , they had this thing called 'The Pit' . It was a public closed section where such issues where left to be wrestled out in the mud pit .

 

bring back the pit !   I been saying fer years now !.

 

 

 

If someone doesn't like Buddhism or want Buddhism I could care less. If someone is going to misrepresent Buddhism I'm going to speak up about the truth.

Edited December 27, 2023 by Maddie

[Nungali]

40 minutes ago, Cobie said:

 

Why think you need a recepy?

 

 

Why let someone tell you you are ‘ignorant’?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Indeed !

 

Why let  ....   let .

 

if one hears information one does not accept , why LET IT get in and become somehow personal to you .

 

some of the alternative choices are;

 

to blame them  and feel an indignation has occurred

 

or not accept it  and    ' ya missed me '  

 

or  catch it and throw it back with a custard pie attached

[Nungali]

23 minutes ago, Maddie said:

 

I've been baffled today with the various negative responses to Buddhism. I've never had this much negativity to it in my life! I even had one person think that was I said about Buddhism was so outrageous that they no longer wish to speak to me. Pretty extreme but also weird lol. Today was weird. 

 

 

'Happy Solstice '  !  

 

I get it double ; Xmas and my birthday is on the other one (solstice) .

 

My Christmas day involved  first early , no presents, but someone that wanted me to share what I didnt have enough of for myself .... I did . and then listened to their twisted and seemingly inescapable problems for three hours .  Then my partner had a blowout , which I tried to help her through  and apparently got that all wrong and upset her more  (and now things have moved along upstairs (so to speak ), my concern turned into 'Dont be silly . You worry too much, I am okay ." Then followed by a 2 1/2 hr call with my big bro , we haven't spoken in over two years ... a lot to go through and sort out .  and .... and ..... 

 

I am presently typing from a safe space , underneath my bed   

[Nungali]

22 minutes ago, whocoulditbe? said:

I'm not sure the news cycle makes people any less passive in practice.

 

My point is  , no we are NOT doing okay 

 

and in relation to the comment that pointed out 'why have eight arms when we have four'   and suggesting that ( by inference ?  - I may have got that part wrong )  and we do 'okay' .

 

Look ... anyone here that does not think the world and humanity  has got things wrong .... (deluded  . not 'enlightened' , needs help , etc )

 

put your hand up .

[Nungali]

24 minutes ago, Maddie said:

 

Yes I'm sure forsaking all possessions becoming celibate and begging for one meal a day is a great way to become rich LOL

 

Ummmmm ... it can be if you are a CIA funded Tibetan Buddhist living in USA .

 

Those on the attack on Buddhists would be better focused on that .

 

I can start that one off with some stats and facts  if they like .

 

But heaven forbid ....   can anyone find a religion , or monastary or sect within a religion that has a perfect faultless leader and no internal interpersonal problems , or some level of corruption present ?

 

 

[Maddie]

3 minutes ago, Nungali said:

 

My point is  , no we are NOT doing okay 

 

and in relation to the comment that pointed out 'why have eight arms when we have four'   and suggesting that ( by inference ?  - I may have got that part wrong )  and we do 'okay' .

 

Look ... anyone here that does not think the world and humanity  has got things wrong .... (deluded  . not 'enlightened' , needs help , etc )

 

put your hand up .

 

Is what you're saying that some people think things are okay when they're actually not? If only there was a word for this type of thinking 🤔 

[Nungali]

18 minutes ago, Maddie said:

 

It's that Rockstar lifestyle of mine lol, I'm a Buddhist baby! 😎

 

Nah , rockstars and movie stars are into TIBETAN Buddhism .  Is that what you into ?

[Maddie]

Just now, Nungali said:

 

Nah , rockstars and movie stars are into TIBETAN Buddhism .  Is that what you into ?

 

I'm kind of a non-denominational Buddhist but if there's anything that I've studied the most then it's probably been Theravada Buddhism.

[whocoulditbe?]

3 minutes ago, Nungali said:

My point is  , no we are NOT doing okay 

Of course, but focusing too much on fast-moving international crises can make you forget the changes that need to be made on a personal level, and despair is a comfy excuse for apathy.

[Nungali]

18 minutes ago, Maddie said:

 

It's that Rockstar lifestyle of mine lol, I'm a Buddhist baby! 😎

 

Nah , rockstars and movie stars are into TIBETAN Buddhism .  Is that what you into ?

[whocoulditbe?]

5 minutes ago, Nungali said:

But heaven forbid ....   can anyone find a religion , or monastary or sect within a religion that has a perfect faultless leader and no internal interpersonal problems , or some level of corruption present ?

The virtue is always with the followers, better to have imaginary or involuntary leaders.

[Nungali]

1 minute ago, whocoulditbe? said:

Of course, but focusing too much on fast-moving international crises can make you forget the changes that need to be made on a personal level, and despair is a comfy excuse for apathy.

 

Yep .

 

But it twernt me that posted those pics  ... are you following along ?  Seeing how one response generates another .

 

I do go to fast and 'mercurial' at times   .... got little wings on me ankles .

[Trunk]

On 12/26/2023 at 3:31 AM, Daniel said:

Quote

Delusion ---> craving/aversion ---> suffering.

 

See, it's not neutral.  The assertion is:  "You are causing your own suffering"  That's an insult.

 

disclaimer: I'm not claiming to represent any tradition, just my own thoughts - but there's a lot of overlap.

 

Seems to me that the concepts of forward (manifesting) and reverse (unmanifesting) are pertinent.

 

forward

I just observe that physical life has challenges, pleasures and suffering and - from the perspective of the world and the body in a certain way, you're gonna suffer.  Even, imo, the *very* advanced beings I've been lucky to be around.  Their body still feels pain.  (When they are not in meditation, ) they have a personality and deal with, and have (not always perfect) responses to, the struggles of life.

 

In dealing in the world, forward, it's necessary to have a persona (thoughts, attitudes, skills, etc) in order to interact functionally in the world.  A persona, or 'ego' one might say ... though, I know that colloquially 'ego' often has negative connotations of being stuck on one's self and self aggrandizing, there is just the functional conglomeration of stuff amorphous consciousness needs in order to act like person in functional way.

 

reverse

Merging with spacious awareness, transpersonal awareness, the One medicine, luminous emptiness, God.  Humbling one's self to the dialectic between drop and Ocean.  This can become so strong that it mostly overwhelms the discomforts of physical life, certainly accessible to many at least for short periods.  More fluently, more skillfully and wisely, gradually deeper - over the course of one's life.

(I'm just going to stop there at that level that is relatively grounded, real, accessible, not super advanced legendary esoteric.)

 

The drop ~ Ocean integration, development, skill can develop with education on how it's done, and practice.

Just like many other skills.

 

So.

Could you say that it's someone's fault that they've not developed the level of skill, development, that they've not eliminated all of their suffering?  And take it as an insult?  ... or that little kids etc?

I can see how someone could take, argue, that pt of view - but I find it so out of proportion with reality, and so askew of the intent and perspective of the teachings ... that it's not, imo, a fair understanding of what Buddha was offering (even the little bit that I've gotten from it) nor how that relates to the realities of living cultivation.

 

Do some of the Buddhist teachings get interpreted in extreme ways?  Yup, imho.  And leads to some legit analytical critiques, imo.

Are there streams of Buddhism that seek to bridge middle ways?  Yep. 

... that train in gradual development that leads to solace from the built-in suffering of life?  Yep.

Are there streams of Buddhism that develop a "Light body" that resonates with Universal Light?  Yup (vajrayana).

 

Ok, 'nuff yakkin',

Trunk

[Mark Foote]

11 hours ago, Maddie said:

 

In Buddhism there are what are called the "three poisons", Delusion, Desire, and Aversion. These are some of the most BASIC teachings of Buddhism.

 

So for example if someone gets angry, that is one of the three poisons that cause suffering. 

 

The Buddha described the cause of anger (or any other type of aversion or craving) as being a result of not seeing things as they really are, or aka delusion. 
 

I think the cankers are given in different formulations in the Pali sermons.  The one I find most thought provoking is as the canker of sense-pleasures, the canker of becoming, and the canker of ignorance.

 

I don't think he really defined terms, either. 

I have come to assume that "becoming" is a reference to something like:
 

That which we will…, and that which we intend to do and that wherewithal we are occupied:–this becomes an object for the persistance of consciousness. The object being there, there comes to be a station of consciousness. Consciousness being stationed and growing, rebirth of renewed existence takes place in the future, and here from birth, decay, and death, grief, lamenting, suffering, sorrow, and despair come to pass. Such is the uprising of this mass of ill.

(SN II 65, Pali Text Society SN Vol II pg 45)

 

We become inured to the occurrence of the chain, and the re-manifestation of consciousness.

The usual first link in the chain of causation is ignorance, and ignorance gives rise to habitual or willful activity.  I'm thinking that the canker of ignorance is the failure to experience the presence of mind with the placement of attention, placement out of necessity in the moment.

The five hindrances are to be overcome, before concentration can take place:
 

“But, [Gautama], what is the condition, what the cause of not knowing and not seeing? How do not knowing and not seeing have a condition and a cause?”
 

“At such time, prince, as one dwells with heart possessed and overwhelmed by sensual lust, and knows not, sees not in very truth any refuge from sensual lust that has arisen, –this, prince, is the cause of not knowing. of not seeing. Thus not knowing, not seeing have a condition, a cause.”
 

“Then again, prince, at such time as one dwells with heart possessed by malevolence… by sloth and torpor… by excitement and flurry… by doubt and wavering, and knows not, sees not in very truth any refuge therefrom, –this, prince, is the condition, this is the cause of not knowing, of not seeing. Thus, prince, not knowing and not seeing have a condition, have a cause.”
 

“What, [Gautama] is this method of teaching called?”
 

“These, prince, are called –‘the hindrances’”.
 

(SN V 127, Vol V pg 108)

 

 

[Mark Foote]

23 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

Discussing or knowing things do not lead to enlightenment. IMO Enlightenment is something that was realized all the sudden by an instant thought. It is something had never seen or heard before but it just came into the picture and make someone dismiss all the suffering, delusion, and bitterness.
 

The cessation of ("determinate thought" in the activity of the body in) inbreathing and outbreathing can take place in an instant, but not through thought per se:
 

…I have seen that the ceasing of the activities is gradual. When one has attained the first trance, speech has ceased. When one has attained the second trance, thought initial and sustained has ceased. When one has attained the third trance, zest has ceased. When one has attained the fourth trance, inbreathing and outbreathing have ceased.. Both perception and feeling have ceased when one has attained the cessation of perception and feeling.
 

(SN IV 217, Pali Text Society vol IV p 146)

 

With the cessation of ("determinate thought" in) feeling and perceiving, the cankers are brought to a close:

 

…[an individual] comprehends thus, ‘This concentration of mind … is effected and thought out. But whatever is effected and thought out, that is impermanent, it is liable to stopping.’ When [the individual] knows this thus, sees this thus, [their] mind is freed from the canker of sense-pleasures and [their] mind is freed from the canker of becoming and [their] mind is freed from the canker of ignorance. In freedom is the knowledge that [one] is freed and [one] comprehends: “Destroyed is birth, brought to a close the (holy)-faring, done is what was to be done, there is no more of being such or so’. [They] comprehend thus: “The disturbances there might be resulting from the canker of sense-pleasures do not exist here; the disturbances there might be resulting from the canker of becoming do not exist here; the disturbances there might be resulting from the canker of ignorance do not exist here. And there is only this degree of disturbance, that is to say the six sensory fields that, conditioned by life, are grounded on this body itself.”

(MN III 108-109, Pali Text Society Vol III p 151-152)

 

 

With the cankers no longer extant, a chain of causation can become evident:

 

That which we will…, and that which we intend to do and that wherewithal we are occupied:–this becomes an object for the persistance of consciousness. The object being there, there comes to be a station of consciousness. Consciousness being stationed and growing, rebirth of renewed existence takes place in the future, and here from birth, decay, and death, grief, lamenting, suffering, sorrow, and despair come to pass. Such is the uprising of this mass of ill.
 

Even if we do not will, or intend to do, and yet are occupied with something, this too becomes an object for the persistance of consciousness… whence birth… takes place.
 

But if we neither will, nor intend to do, nor are occupied about something, there is no becoming of an object for the persistance of consciousness. The object being absent, there comes to be no station of consciousness. Consciousness not being stationed and growing, no rebirth of renewed existence takes place in the future, and herefrom birth, decay-and-death, grief, lamenting, suffering, sorrow and despair cease. Such is the ceasing of this entire mass of ill.
 

(SN II 65, Pali Text Society SN Vol II pg 45)
 

 

“Birth, decay-and-death, grief, lamenting, suffering, sorrow and despair”—in some of his lectures, Gautama summarized “this entire mass of ill” by saying “in short, the five groups of grasping”.  Grasping after a sense of self in connection with phenomena of form, feeling, mind, habitual tendency, or mental state is identically suffering, according to Gautama.

 

Edited December 27, 2023 by Mark Foote

[Maddie]

Delusion

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Mark Foote]

22 hours ago, whocoulditbe? said:

Imo there are recipes for enlightenment. You wouldn't imagine that the knowledge of a cake recipe alone can create a cake, but it does help. The line drawn between the method we are given and the materials we come with is ultimately imaginary.
 

But usually in counting breathing or following breathing, you feel as if you are doing something, you know– you are following breathing, and you are counting breathing. This is, you know, why counting breathing or following breathing practice is, you know, for us it is some preparation– preparatory practice for shikantaza because for most people it is rather difficult to sit, you know, just to sit.
 

(“The Background of Shikantaza”; Shunryu Suzuki, Sunday, February 22, 1970, San Francisco; transcript from shunryusuzuki.com)

 

 

Of course, to have good shikantaza, we have preparatory zazen. You know, from old, old time, you know, we have that technical term, konpunjo. Konpunjo means “to enter,” you know. That is started from Theravada practice, you know. To prepare for the first stage or second stage or third stage, they practice some special practice. Those practice is not the practice of the first stage or second stage or third stage, but to prepare for those stages.
 

(70-02-22: The Background of Shikantaza, “question and answer”)

 

 

I can describe the practices of the first four stages, based on my own experience, and I can give links to the posts I've written that include Gautama's instructions.  That's as you say, whocoulditbe?, cake recipes--they've been very helpful to me. "Preparatory practices".  I would say ChiDragon and Cobie are right that instruction can just get in the way.

From my last post on my own site:
 

When a presence of mind is retained as the placement of attention shifts, then the natural tendency toward the free placement of attention can draw out thought initial and sustained, and bring on the stages of concentration:
 

… there is no need to depend on teaching. But the most important thing is to practice and realize our true nature… [laughs]. This is, you know, Zen.
 

(Shunryu Suzuki, Tassajara 68-07-24 transcript from shunryusuzuki.com)

 

Edited December 27, 2023 by Mark Foote