Daoism and artistic pursuit

[zoe]

Very sorry if I'm repeating myself with what I was saying in my literature recommendation requesting thread but- I've become a bit confused on how Taoism can even address the topic of art- more specifically, artistic motivation. I've found myself in a fairly extreme lapse of creative motivation in general since the start of seasonal depression (first winter in a place that actually experiences winter) and in trying to turn to Daoism for assistance in this I can't help but realize that I pursue artistry because I have a desire to create art. In retrospect- for a very long time that desire had been to have art of my own creation, as opposed to the distinct act of creation which does not reason as a perspective well aligned with the Tao. I don't really see that as my main motive right now but who am I to say? Regardless, I feel affected by that having been my motive for some time at the very least, and maybe my lack of that desire now means there's just nothing and is why things are like this.

tl;dr though, if desire is poisonous then what besides desire should I rely on to drive me to create things? If not desire then what else is there? To create at all it feels as though it can only be reasoned that it was done because of desire, I presume that a large part of the problem with my creative work is that I am having trouble conceiving any reason to pursue it other than things which I could describe as desire. As something that seems like such a core tenant of Daoism, it admittedly seems like the shunning of desire is something I have a really poor understanding of, so I'd appreciate any clarification.

[Nintendao]

Desire is great. To want to have or make art is admirable. Desire to be great, is not as great. To want to become a famous artist, might be setting myself up for disappointment if it doesn't happen.

 

I've heard artists talk about creativity coming from a "flow state," being something similar to Lao Tzu's "wu wei," where instead of fixating on making particular things happen, we just play along in harmony with whatever is already happening. Wu wei (無為) does not mean to not do anything, but to do things without ado. It's mentioned as early as chapter 2 and 3, then nine more times in 37 through 64.

 

Art can be as tricky a subject as Tao. Give a kindergartener a handful of elbow macaroni, some Elmer's glue, and a piece of paper, and they'll likely show us something about both!

 

I dunno i'm just ramblin'

 

@zoe what media do you work in?

 

[zoe]

1 hour ago, Nintendao said:

Desire is great. To want to have or make art is admirable. Desire to be great, is not as great. To want to become a famous artist, might be setting myself up for disappointment if it doesn't happen.

 

I've heard artists talk about creativity coming from a "flow state," being something similar to Lao Tzu's "wu wei," where instead of fixating on making particular things happen, we just play along in harmony with whatever is already happening. Wu wei (無為) does not mean to not do anything, but to do things without ado. It's mentioned as early as chapter 2 and 3, then nine more times in 37 through 64.

 

Art can be as tricky a subject as Tao. Give a kindergartener a handful of elbow macaroni, some Elmer's glue, and a piece of paper, and they'll likely show us something about both!

 

I dunno i'm just ramblin'

 

@zoe what media do you work in?

 

I'd say the desire I originally went in with was less to be great, but just for the concepts I had to have some kind of tangible manifestation for my own satisfaction.
I use pencil (I've a preference for 0.5mm 2b), fountain pens (I'm running 2 lamy safaris and a TWSBI Eco with a bunch of different inks, I'm a sucker for sheen inks though), and alcohol markers. I mostly just draw in Rhodia notebooks and the like. Admittedly the favoritism for notebooks is indicative of my problem, because a lot of what I'm doing is just repetitive technical practice. I was less seriously engaged with visual arts back in highschool and really started pushing myself after that, at which point the active development of technical skill made any attempt at working creatively incredibly disappointing and rage-inducing, so a lot of the last few years where I've been developing technical skills have had little actual creative work. Basically, I have no idea what I want to even draw anymore because I spent too long steeped in technical practice without engaging the creative side of it nearly enough. I guess you could say that artistic pursuit is something that is now completely devoid of yang for me, and I have no idea how to even start coming back from that.

[SirPalomides]

Apart from the beautiful passage on the Yellow Emperor's music, in Chapter 14 of Zhuangzi, I don't know if any peculiarly Daoist aesthetic theories have been elaborated (they probably have, I'm just ignorant of them). Obviously over the course of its history Daoism has produced a vast amount of painting, literature, music, etc. As far as I know, the Chinese philosophical school that most stridently advocated the arts as a means of self-cultivation are the Confucians. This goes back to Confucius himself with his enthusiasm for the Book of Poetry , music, etc. and China's fine art traditions (painting, poetry, calligraphy, guqin playing) tended to develop within that paradigm, even when artists were expressing Daoist or Buddhist themes. There are several parts in where Zhuangzi seems to come out against this notion of art as a means of implanting virtue, but like the passage I mentioned about the Yellow Emperor's music there are parts that indicate a place for music as well. 

 

I think your artistic rut is probably not uncommon. It might help to try to forget your technical training, break the rules, just create one thing after another without a preconceived plan. Automatic drawing, decalcomania, etc. perhaps. Then you might develop a clearer sense of what you really want to do, and when that happens the technical skills you acquired can emerge in a way that is actually useful to your vision. 

[Maddie]

I'm not really artistic but I have noticed that when I do simple breath meditation (samatha) that an unwanted side effect is that I get super creative. Typically this is something that I try to ignore, but I was thinking in your case it might be what you're looking for.

[Nintendao]

When yang has reached its maximum, it already contains within it the seed of yin. The cycle will reverse again in time.

 

Here are some things that may help embrace the yin aspects of absorbing and reflecting.

• Look through some old notebooks, to see your progress over time and hard work.
• Journaling about goals achieved, even something as mundane getting some cleaning done, or whatever's on your mind really. Slowing down to focus on handwriting itself as an art, not just a tool to get ideas down. The formation of each letter by its constituent curves, can bring a new perspective on something that's been there all along.
• Get back in touch with what got you interested in art in the first place, whatever that may be. Carve out some time to go to a physical bookstore or art supply, or if there are any museums nearby.
• The yang activity includes not only to create, but also to transmit. Find new outlets. Give drawings away as gifts. If it feels awkward at first try doing this anonymously by leaving it on a park bench or library . Post on deviant art or tiktok, spacehey, etc. The Cool Picture Thread. It doesn't have to be a masterpiece. Even the technical exercises will be interesting to someone.
• Re-create the same drawings you have done in the past, trying out different improvements or themes. This way you can give them away and still keep the original.

Again just ideas, not telling you what to do! Sometimes no amount of self-help jargon will make a difference if angst has set in. Something completely different to reset the energy. It's too cold to go camping.. build an old school blanket fort to practice in 

[zoe]

7 hours ago, SirPalomides said:

Apart from the beautiful passage on the Yellow Emperor's music, in Chapter 14 of Zhuangzi

Yeah I've kinda ignored Zhuangzi, guess it's about time I read it then.

 

5 hours ago, Maddie said:

I'm not really artistic but I have noticed that when I do simple breath meditation (samatha) that an unwanted side effect is that I get super creative.

might be specific to you but sounds interesting enough that I'll give it a try!

 

3 hours ago, Nintendao said:

Here are some things that may help embrace the yin aspects of absorbing and reflecting.

Admittedly journaling does sometimes help a bit with these things but it's not too consistent... I'll try your advice though, admittedly I rarely read through my journals or my sketches which at least slightly defeats the whole point, but hey sometimes a reasoning of why you should do something from someone else helps.
-

Also I guess I forgot to mention earlier but- I also do ASCII art I suppose, as you can see in my profile picture. I can do pixel art too but I'm inefficient enough at it that I rarely do it, I've tried doing digital art before but the learning curve of using a drawing tablet has kinda kept me away lol.

Edited December 22, 2023 by zoe

[Salvijus]

On 2023-12-22 at 2:16 AM, zoe said:

tl;dr though, if desire is poisonous then what besides desire should I rely on to drive me to create things? If not desire then what else is there? To create at all it feels as though it can only be reasoned that it was done because of desire, I presume that a large part of the problem with my creative work is that I am having trouble conceiving any reason to pursue it other than things which I could describe as desire. As something that seems like such a core tenant of Daoism, it admittedly seems like the shunning of desire is something I have a really poor understanding

 

There's nothing wrong with desire. Without desire you couldn't even lift your arm. Nothing happens without desire. Life is desire. Desire is the life force that creates everything. It's Shakti. It's life force that makes your heart beat. It's the life force that makes the whole universe spin. And it is love. 

 

Art is just an expression of that force/desire. Let it flow absolutely overwhelmingly so that it brakes you wide open and heart begins to sing without obstructions. That unobstructed song of the heart is art. And it is union with the Creation. And it is joy and freedom. And it is what you are most authenticly. 

 

Edited December 24, 2023 by Salvijus

[zoe]

9 hours ago, Salvijus said:

 

There's nothing wrong with desire. Without desire you couldn't even lift your arm. ...

 

Art is just an expression of that force/desire. Let it flow absolutely overwhelmingly ...

I've contemplated that, yeah. Admittedly I don't entirely understand the shunning of desire and it has made me question how it even leaves space for simple things like continuing to breathe, or posting this, lol. I guess my present lack of understanding has led me to frequently reduce the ideal to entirely eliminating desire but I'm assuming it's something along the lines of controlling desire rather than eliminating it, something about that at least in my limited context though just doesn't parse for me.

Regarding the stuff about art itself, I'm not opposed to that view but I would say the problem I have is that in attempting to open that flow nothing comes forward, as I said, I don't really know what I want to make anymore and feel a bit directionless. Like, I've found character art really appealing for instance and I spent much of the last few years practicing art on character art related things, I won't deny that the constant repetitive sketching of heads and torsos and the like had some creative value but in that necessity of developing technical skill it turned art into a highly technical thing for me because my self hatred in much of that time made me feel unworthy to pursue art in a creative manner, so I almost never did. I've gotten a lot better in that regard and am more gung-ho as of late about free expression but all that time engaging art in such a repetitive and technical manner just sucked the creative element out of art for me, and I've found no way to recover it. In my study of The Golden Flower I've gathered that in its context this would mean that art is entirely yin for me now, (to a degree) devoid of creativity. Which is a kind of problem that it seemingly dedicates a lot of space to to resolution of, which is a large part of why I posted here tbh.

[Sanity Check]

This is something I've thought about.

 

When I was younger I would make small boats out of barbque skewers and typically be experimenting or making things. At some point that creativity ended. Its easy to get ideas for things but very difficult to pull the trigger on the implementation side.

 

My theory is: creativity, art, building, making things. Is linked to reproductive channels. Sex is capable of creating life & is where things like art and creativity originate from. At some point I must have acquired blockage in areas involving reproduction/sex/etc. Which is why its harder to engage that part of the biology which is naturally associated with creation.

 

Also I think I have some blockage or dysfunction in the heart area. As I no longer feel emotions or empathy as I used to. The heart may also be linked to creativity.

 

Meditating on reproductive and heart regions might help to address issues related to normal levels of creativity declining.

 

If you make progress on this, please share your findings.

[whocoulditbe?]

The question is whether you can seperate desire from will. Arguably desire doesn't produce volitional action on its own, just an awarness of lack coupled with distress. You need a will to respond to it. The most powerful desires are the ones that can never be directly fulfiled, but lead to other behaviours aimed at filling the gap. Art could be one of those behaviours.

Edited December 24, 2023 by whocoulditbe?

[Salvijus]

On 2023-12-24 at 8:12 PM, zoe said:

problem I have is that in attempting to open that flow nothing comes forward, as I said, I don't really know what I want to make anymore

 

^Anything takes makes you excited. When we act on excitement we follow our heart. And when we express our heart, we make art.

 

This extends to daily life as well. Just a simple smile or conversation can be art or an expression of the heart. 

 

Marry Christmas btw. A day dedicated to Christ(the core of every heart). The source of all creativity and love and art.

Edited December 25, 2023 by Salvijus

[zoe]

On 12/24/2023 at 2:02 PM, Sanity Check said:

Meditating on reproductive and heart regions might help to address issues related to normal levels of creativity declining.

 

If you make progress on this, please share your findings.

I'll try to give that some focus, I'll reply again if it seems to make a difference. Although atm the waters are a bit muddied, the resources on Golden Flower I was recently linked have made it many times easier for me to parse and following its prescriptions in this short time has done a lot for me in a lot of ways. So, might be a little while. 
 

On 12/24/2023 at 2:56 PM, whocoulditbe? said:

The question is whether you can seperate desire from will. Arguably desire doesn't produce volitional action on its own, just an awarness of lack coupled with distress. You need a will to respond to it. The most powerful desires are the ones that can never be directly fulfiled, but lead to other behaviours aimed at filling the gap. Art could be one of those behaviours.

That's plausible. I don't think that my ideal of art is something that can really exist, but even then what else is there for will to respond to but desire? I don't think there's necessarily not anything else but it's kinda hard to think about, if there's a line to be drawn I'm not sure where it is.

 

[whocoulditbe?]

15 minutes ago, zoe said:

what else is there for will to respond to but desire?

Responding to desire means responding to lack, distress, jealousy, regret, etc., but there are other feelings that call for action: duty, compassion, respect for beauty, etc.

[zoe]

21 minutes ago, whocoulditbe? said:

Responding to desire means responding to lack, distress, jealousy, regret, etc., but there are other feelings that call for action: duty, compassion, respect for beauty, etc.

That reasons pretty well, although I don't feel like I'd previously intuited things that way. I appreciate the insight. I had a pretty bad period where I think I'd become nihilistic enough to decide things like duty, compassion, etc. could only be a result of desire and self-interest.

Edited December 27, 2023 by zoe

[whocoulditbe?]

19 minutes ago, zoe said:

I had a pretty bad period where I think I'd become nihilistic enough to decide things like duty, compassion, etc. could only be a result of desire and self-interest.

In a way they are a result of those things, but Y being the result of X can be reframed as Y overcoming X, X revealing itself to have always been Y, and so on.

[zoe]

1 hour ago, whocoulditbe? said:

In a way they are a result of those things, but Y being the result of X can be reframed as Y overcoming X, X revealing itself to have always been Y, and so on.

That's true. I guess more generally in terms of introspection I have a default perspective of a directional relationship between two mental phenomenon X -> Y as being one of Y's dependency and subservience to X. Which is stupid lol, but I guess I do think that way.

[ChimpSage]

On 12/21/2023 at 8:16 PM, zoe said:

Very sorry if I'm repeating myself with what I was saying in my literature recommendation requesting thread but- I've become a bit confused on how Taoism can even address the topic of art- more specifically, artistic motivation. I've found myself in a fairly extreme lapse of creative motivation in general since the start of seasonal depression (first winter in a place that actually experiences winter) and in trying to turn to Daoism for assistance in this I can't help but realize that I pursue artistry because I have a desire to create art. In retrospect- for a very long time that desire had been to have art of my own creation, as opposed to the distinct act of creation which does not reason as a perspective well aligned with the Tao. I don't really see that as my main motive right now but who am I to say? Regardless, I feel affected by that having been my motive for some time at the very least, and maybe my lack of that desire now means there's just nothing and is why things are like this.

tl;dr though, if desire is poisonous then what besides desire should I rely on to drive me to create things? If not desire then what else is there? To create at all it feels as though it can only be reasoned that it was done because of desire, I presume that a large part of the problem with my creative work is that I am having trouble conceiving any reason to pursue it other than things which I could describe as desire. As something that seems like such a core tenant of Daoism, it admittedly seems like the shunning of desire is something I have a really poor understanding of, so I'd appreciate any clarification.

Well, to answer your question, we must ask if Daoism truly shuns the desire to create.

 

I would argue that Daoists have the greatest desire to create.

 

Where does everything come from? 
 

The creator.

 

Why did he create in the first place?

 

What was the desire? What was the purpose?

 

Infinite light and infinite love. Infinite Yang.

 

The greatest art is conceived when we realize the purpose for its creation.  
 

Once we have the purpose, we must have the desire to make it a reality using free will. 
 

In other words, find the purpose for the art rather than the desire.
 

This is the key to your art  

Edited December 27, 2023 by ChimpSage

[silent thunder]

sounds like you've encountered the place of no mountain...

it can be disconcerting to lose one's gravity for that which used to hold interest and inspire passion/reason to act.

the tao however, is as a bellows... inspiration/apathy are an expression of this.

trust that change is a constant and to remain as you are for long, is unlikely?

 

persevere on your path, the mountain will coalesce once again ^{(then disappear, re-coalesce, disapear...)}

[doc benway]

On 12/21/2023 at 8:16 PM, zoe said:

if desire is poisonous then what besides desire should I rely on to drive me to create things? If not desire then what else is there?

 

Teachings on desire as a poison can be very helpful to some and harmful to others.

We all need different things at different times in our lives.

Please take everything I say as nothing more than my opinion and perspective.

 

A few words on desire as a poison. Desire, like poison, is not good or bad in and of itself. There is absolutely nothing wrong with mercury or digitalis. The problem lies in the person that consumes it in large enough quantities to experience toxic effects. IMO there is nothing wrong with the simple experience of desire and nothing wrong with desire serving as a stimulus for creative expression. In fact, this may be one of the healthiest expressions of desire. The poison lies in our tendency to over-identify with our desires, to over-indulge our desires, or even to deny ourselves what we desire, for then it tends to exert a controlling factor in our lives leading to problems. When we simply are present to the experience of desire - how it lives in our body, our inner narrative, our thoughts and feelings, we have the opportunity to see it for what it is, a normal and natural manifestation of human experience. It becomes toxic when it becomes a source of frustration, of unsatisfied longing, as an object of rumination, or when it leads us to take advantage of others.

 

In truth, my experience is that desire is not the only, and certainly not the best, driving force for creative expression. Creativity is far more subtle and spontaneous than that. Creativity comes from a much deeper, quieter, and more intelligent place than desire. One analogy is the relationship between spiritual practice and awakening or enlightenment. Spiritual practice can prepare us for and help us to recognize when we come into contact with deeper spiritual truths. Nevertheless, there is no direct correlation and no guarantee that any particular practice will result in such an outcome. Similarly the desire to create or to own or claim authorship of our creation is not the source of creativity. It can put us in a position where the spontaneity of creativity can come out, it can even give us fuel to keep going when that connection to the creative source is elusive. In this sense, I see no problem with accepting the fact that desire plays a role in our creative process. In fact, the desire to create can help us to connect more deeply to something important inside that we may otherwise overlook.

 

The desire to achieve something in life, be it spiritual or creative, is a useful and appropriate human experience. Certainly there comes a point when desire can be distracting or limiting or lead us in the wrong direction. It is important to be aware enough of ourselves and our creative process to recognize when this is occurring and to redirect; very much like we need to notice when we are distracted in meditation and return to presence, over and over again. At some point I think desire becomes less important as a motivating factor but that is not something that can be forced or denied, that is something that must be permitted to occur when our process and development has matured sufficiently. 

 

Another thing I'll suggest is that the tendency to question, judge, and punish ourselves is a symptom of the seasonal depression you describe. There is nothing inherently wrong with this either but it is important to recognize it for what it is - a passing feeling, maybe slow to pass, but ultimately something that will change with time. Like desire, this tendency to judge and punish our motivation and our feelings is just fine as it is as long as we recognize that it is nothing more than a very limited and transient mood and experience. What we truly are as human and spiritual beings is so much more than that and what I am pointing to here is the real source of creativity.

 

All that said I will freely admit that my own connection to a source and motivation for creative expression has been elusive and frustrating for me at times, probably more often than not, so while I may have some thoughts I like to share on the subject I can understand and share your frustration. I think one approach to consider is that when these obstacles arise and seem insurmountable, rather than throwing ourselves against the rocks maybe try to find an alternative way forward. Consider investing a little time and energy into a form of expression that is unfamiliar, something completely different from your usual approach. A different medium or activity, a different color palette (whether that be verbal, auditory, visual, whatever...), a different time of day, a different location, even something simple like different clothing or background music. It's also OK to take a break from your activity. I've found in the past that taking a break allows me to return with a fresh perspective that permits progress in new and exciting directions. 

 

Best of luck to you Zoe and may the new year bring you fresh inspiration and creative energy!

[zoe]

On 1/1/2024 at 12:58 PM, steve said:

 

Teachings on desire as a poison can be very helpful to some and harmful to others.

We all need different things at different times in our lives.

Please take everything I say as nothing more than my opinion and perspective.

Honestly this does parse pretty well for me, and I'll admit that

On 1/1/2024 at 12:58 PM, steve said:

It becomes toxic when it becomes a source of frustration, of unsatisfied longing, as an object of rumination, or when it leads us to take advantage of others.

is exactly what the state I often find myself is conducive to, and the fact that that's the case is a large part of why I consider cultivation to be conducive to my artistic goals, I agree that the creativity I'm pursuing lies in a deeper place than base desire, instead in the "center" described by the TTG/Golden Flower. I can't say I even distinguish those things too heavily. With the Golden Flower materials I was recently recommended I have found that my creativity has become a lot clearer to me than before but I still find it practically difficult to get closer to the state where my creativity is present, a specific observation I've made is that early in the morning I'm overcome with oblivion as described by Golden Flower, (despite its recommendation to spend the mornings in meditation) which makes it very difficult to meditate or do anything very mechanical, it often feels like it limits the length of my thoughts to the point that they're only an "image" of themselves with no actual content and I don't get over it until early in the evening in many cases, at which point I'm tired enough that I easily get higher and more harmful and false expressions of creativity mixed up and fall into a state of anxiety and frustration. I appreciate the rationale, though. It's good to hear such a thoroughly reasoned perspective similar to my own that lines up with the insights I've recently been making.

Edited January 3 by zoe