Abrahamic qigong?

[Maddie]

This is probably a stupid question but is there any sort of Abrahamic qigong. Granted I realize it won't be called that since qigong is a Chinese word, but is there anything that has the same forms and effect? I've always been baffled why eastern traditions all seem to have this sort of thing, and why western traditions don't seem to.

[Taomeow]

[snowymountains]

Depends on what you count as a western tradition.

 

Reichian psychotherapy does have movement psychosomatic exercises aimed at removing blockages.

It's not a form of therapy I've tried, I know someone ( who was a therapist themselves ) who did it.

The TLDR was

• It works and it works well
• It's more expensive than other forms of therapy and more difficult to find a good therapist 
• If they were to do it again , they'd do schema therapy, so start from the amygdala, instead of starting from the blockages in the body.

So overall they were positive on the therapeutic method but other, more modern, forms of therapy can have the same effect without using body exercises.

[Dainin]

Besides the five times daily prayers (Salah) posted above, many Sufi orders have additional practices engaging body, breath, and mind (Zikr, whirling, etc.). Practitioners of the Eastern Orthodox Christian Hesychasm do as well (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hesychasm, see section on psychosomatic techniques). Gurdjieff may have combined techniques from those two traditions (and possibly others as well) to come up with his "movements." The ancient Greeks seemed to have similar practices as well (see the interesting books of Peter Kingsley). They would not be Abrahamic but may have influenced them, as they occupied many of the same regions. The books of Idries Shah claim that Sufism had roots in pre-Islamic traditions, but his scholarship seems to be questioned by some people (as does Kingsley's).

 

Although these practices share with qigong the engagement of body, breath, and mind, I'm not sure of the extent to which the concepts of cultivating qi and the meridian system exists in them. I have heard of concepts such as "pneuma" and "ruach" as being similar to qi or prana but don't know enough about them to say. Maybe someone more knowledgeable about this can weigh in. 

 

On a related note, the traditional system of Islamic medicine (Unani aka Tibb) uses many modalities in common with traditional Chinese medicine and Ayurveda, including pulse and tongue diagnosis, herbalism, dietary therapy, cupping, and body work/massage, as well as various treatments suggested by Mohammed ("Prophetic medicine"). A lot of the roots of this system lay in the ancient Greek concept of temperaments (or humours), which was also widely used in Western medicine prior to the 1900s. It also seems similar to TCM and Ayurveda, in looking at the individual constitution of the patient as a key to treatment. I'm not sure if they have a map of the meridians (or nadis) in the same way though.  

Edited January 8 by Dainin

[oak]

I know it's not what you are looking after but I think it's interesting to know that there's an islamic version of Xing Yi Quan

 

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

On 08/01/2024 at 4:13 PM, Dainin said:

Besides the five times daily prayers (Salah) posted above, many Sufi orders have additional practices engaging body, breath, and mind (Zikr, whirling, etc.). Practitioners of the Eastern Orthodox Christian Hesychasm do as well (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hesychasm, see section on psychosomatic techniques). Gurdjieff may have combined techniques from those two traditions (and possibly others as well) to come up with his "movements." The ancient Greeks seemed to have similar practices as well (see the interesting books of Peter Kingsley). They would not be Abrahamic but may have influenced them, as they occupied many of the same regions. The books of Idries Shah claim that Sufism had roots in pre-Islamic traditions, but his scholarship seems to be questioned by some people (as does Kingsley's).

 

Although these practices share with qigong the engagement of body, breath, and mind, I'm not sure of the extent to which the concepts of cultivating qi and the meridian system exists in them. I have heard of concepts such as "pneuma" and "ruach" as being similar to qi or prana but don't know enough about them to say. Maybe someone more knowledgeable about this can weigh in. 

 

On a related note, the traditional system of Islamic medicine (Unani aka Tibb) uses many modalities in common with traditional Chinese medicine and Ayurveda, including pulse and tongue diagnosis, herbalism, dietary therapy, cupping, and body work/massage, as well as various treatments suggested by Mohammed ("Prophetic medicine"). A lot of the roots of this system lay in the ancient Greek concept of temperaments (or humours), which was also widely used in Western medicine prior to the 1900s. It also seems similar to TCM and Ayurveda, in looking at the individual constitution of the patient as a key to treatment. I'm not sure if they have a map of the meridians (or nadis) in the same way though.  

Not to mention many Islamic pencak silat groups in Malaysia and Indonesia. A lot of their non martial arts practices are similar to qigong and neigong.

[blue eyed snake]

On 22-12-2023 at 8:41 PM, Maddie said:

This is probably a stupid question but is there any sort of Abrahamic qigong. Granted I realize it won't be called that since qigong is a Chinese word, but is there anything that has the same forms and effect? I've always been baffled why eastern traditions all seem to have this sort of thing, and why western traditions don't seem to.

 

stupid questions do not exist as far as I am concerned, I've wondered about that too.

 

there is an interview somewhere on these forums with a christian monk, Greece from the top of my head. He's talking about the holy spirit and how you have to make yourself available to it.

 

contrary to the way chi gung works, were the physical body has to move/work to get dantien alive and kicking, chi flowing, channels opening and enlarging.

Holy spirit is there and when you are open for it it will comedown on you, it's a different process but it's chi/prana/energy just the same, although of a different quality

 

but cannot find that interview in a jiffy, someone will link it for you i guess, now that i mentioned it.

 

there's a whole list of interviews with interesting characters around here, somewhere on the forums. 

 

found it:

 

and I do remember something about turning wheels ( aka chakra's) connected to Christianity, but forgotten were I picked that up.

Edited February 5 by blue eyed snake
added link

[Nungali]

 

[Dainin]

I just remembered that two qigong sets that I've studied in the past were transmitted and/or created by Chinese masters who were from Christian and Muslim backgrounds respectively. The Wuji Hundun Qigong popularized by Daisy Lee and Francesco Garripolli was the family qigong of Master Duan Zhi Liang, who a Christian. In a documentary about him, he shows a stele said to talk about his family history. The 24 Posture Therapeutic Qigong developed by Master Helen Wu was based on the 20 posture form developed by her grandfather Master Wang Ziping, who was a Muslim. To my eyes these forms seem to be based on Chinese medical theory and I don't find anything particularly Abrahamic in nature about them.

 

Another thing that came to mind was the Iranian practice of Zhurkane (also transliterated as Zoor Khane and various other ways) or Varzesh i Bastani. This is a sort of ritual practiced by men in a special building (the Zhurkane or House of Power) in an octagonal pit. While sacred music is played and poetry is chanted, they go they through a lengthy series of exercises including calisthenics (including those typically called "Hindu" squats and push-ups in the West), weight lifting with large wooden shields, swinging very large clubs called Meels, and high speed jumping and spinning. I first read about this years ago in a little book called Zen Combat. It may date back to pre-Islamic Persian empire times but has been continued to be practiced post-Islamic conquest. Again, mind , body and spirit are being engaged, but I'm not sure if they have concepts analogous to the meridian system and qi found in the Chinese (and Tibetan and Ayurvedic) system. There is a guy in Australia selling equipment and books about this system under the name of "Persian Yoga."

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pahlevani_and_zoorkhaneh_rituals

https://medium.com/@dforouznv/house-of-strength-the-history-and-traditions-of-the-zurkhaneh-4c41c58d569a

 

Edited February 6 by Dainin

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

2 hours ago, Dainin said:

To my eyes these forms seem to be based on Chinese medical theory and I don't find anything particularly Abrahamic in nature about them.

The beauty of Islam used to be that it would merge with local customs. Unfortunately since the 20th century with the Salafis and other modernist movements there is a lot of rejection of pre-Islamic traditions and also an Arabisation of everything. I much prefer the Sufi way of doing things.

[Dainin]

I just remembered another potential candidate for this, the movement and breath practices of Peter Deunov and his student Omraam Mikhaël Aïvanhov. These guys were from Bulgaria and considered themselves to be esoteric Christians. They came out of the Orthodox Church but seemed to incorporate some Indian concepts as well.

 

 

[ChiDragon]

FYI In the first video.
According to the Taij system, bending the knees beyond the front of the toes is not a good posture. It will damage the knee joints is because the excessive stress was putted on them.. There were many people who want to speed up the practice of Taiji without realizing this would be a problem. As result, they hurt their knees permanently. 

Edited February 6 by ChiDragon

[Nungali]

12 hours ago, Dainin said:

I just remembered that two qigong sets that I've studied in the past were transmitted and/or created by Chinese masters who were from Christian and Muslim backgrounds respectively. The Wuji Hundun Qigong popularized by Daisy Lee and Francesco Garripolli was the family qigong of Master Duan Zhi Liang, who a Christian. In a documentary about him, he shows a stele said to talk about his family history. The 24 Posture Therapeutic Qigong developed by Master Helen Wu was based on the 20 posture form developed by her grandfather Master Wang Ziping, who was a Muslim. To my eyes these forms seem to be based on Chinese medical theory and I don't find anything particularly Abrahamic in nature about them.

 

Another thing that came to mind was the Iranian practice of Zhurkane (also transliterated as Zoor Khane and various other ways) or Varzesh i Bastani. This is a sort of ritual practiced by men in a special building (the Zhurkane or House of Power) in an octagonal pit. While sacred music is played and poetry is chanted, they go they through a lengthy series of exercises including calisthenics (including those typically called "Hindu" squats and push-ups in the West), weight lifting with large wooden shields, swinging very large clubs called Meels, and high speed jumping and spinning. I first read about this years ago in a little book called Zen Combat. It may date back to pre-Islamic Persian empire times but has been continued to be practiced post-Islamic conquest. Again, mind , body and spirit are being engaged, but I'm not sure if they have concepts analogous to the meridian system and qi found in the Chinese (and Tibetan and Ayurvedic) system. There is a guy in Australia selling equipment and books about this system under the name of "Persian Yoga."

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pahlevani_and_zoorkhaneh_rituals

https://medium.com/@dforouznv/house-of-strength-the-history-and-traditions-of-the-zurkhaneh-4c41c58d569a

 

 

 

It seems that heavy club swinging was  to develop the upper body for the use in heavy armor and weapons like large swords, clubs and axes .

 

 

 

Persian warrior - 15th C

[snowymountains]

18 hours ago, Dainin said:

I just remembered another potential candidate for this, the movement and breath practices of Peter Deunov and his student Omraam Mikhaël Aïvanhov. These guys were from Bulgaria and considered themselves to be esoteric Christians. They came out of the Orthodox Church but seemed to incorporate some Indian concepts as well.

 

 

 Nice! Do you know by any chance the origin of the exercises, are they exercises practiced ie by Bulgarian orthodox ascetics or the origin is entirely different and they incorporated it into their personal practice?

[Dainin]

4 hours ago, snowymountains said:

 Nice! Do you know by any chance the origin of the exercises, are they exercises practiced ie by Bulgarian orthodox ascetics or the origin is entirely different and they incorporated it into their personal practice?

 

That is a good question and I'm not sure of the answer. Apparently while Peter Deunov's father was a Bulgarian Orthodox priest, he (Peter) attended two Christian (Protestant) theological schools in the United States in the 1890s, and went to medical school at BU for a year before returning to Bulgaria. He was also known as Beinsa Douno and published some books under that name. I just looked in Amazon and there is biography on him and a number of his books have been translated into English. Might be worth checking out.

 

"In 1932, he developed Paneurhythmy exercises: a sequence of exercises performed to music, to achieve inner balance and harmonization. This practice promotes the processes of self-perfecting, expanding of the consciousness and attaining of virtues. The circle dance, is a conscious interchange between human beings and the forces of living nature. Each movement is the expression of a thought. The effect should be that the observer picks up from the movements, the thought or the idea they express. The rhythm in the movement of the physical body leads us to one in our spiritual life." [Wikipedia article]

 

I think that was coincidentally around this same time that Gurdjieff was developing his movements, which were also performed to music. At least one of his main disciples was a composer. I don't know if Deunov and Gurdjieff knew of each other or not.

 

I think there were various systems of calisthenics and other exercises (aka "Physical Culture) that were popular in Europe around the time (and earlier), such as  Swedish gymnastics, Indian club swinging, Russian kettlebells, and the Turnverein movement in Germany and among German immigrants in the US. It's possible that this type of material may have influenced them but it's hard to say.

 

I noticed that Aivanhov used yogic terminology in the title of some of his books. Apparently he went to India in 1959 and met Neem Karoli Baba, who later became the guru to Ram Dass (Richard Alpert).

 

I find this kind of stuff to be really interesting!

Edited February 7 by Dainin

[Nungali]

These are not 'Abrahamic'   but    an extension of some of the above is still found in Anthroposophy '  - 'Eurythmy' .

 

Eurythmy is an expressive movement art originated by Rudolf Steiner in conjunction with his wife, Marie, in the early 20th century. Primarily a performance art, it is also used in education, especially in Waldorf schools, and – as part of anthroposophic medicine – for claimed therapeutic purposes.^[1][2]

 

 

 There is also the 'assumption of God- forms'  ( poses ) , a magical practice based on modern hermetic 'neo -Egyptian '  practice  (also apparently it is an  eastern  'tantric practice' as well ? )