Qi deviations

[Sleepy Bluejay]

Someone made me think of Qi deviations and I gave it a thought.

Qi deviation

There are two versions of Qi deviation; one is psychological and the other is physical.

 

The psychological Qi deviation; is to face your inner demons and traumas. By overcoming psychological Qi deviation, you overcome your inner demons and traumas. Mental illnesses and disorders do not develop by Qi deviations, the illnesses and disorders were always there. Things that cause mental illnesses and disorders are abuse, childhood traumas, genetics, etc.
If you cannot overcome your traumas or “inner demons”, please seek professional medical help from a real psychiatrist and not a “healer”.

 

The physical Qi deviation; is just regular malpractice of exercises that you will get from any basic workout if done incorrect.

 

So quit using Qi deviations as an excuse for claiming a practice is bad!
Saying people should not practice my made-up technique or anyone's made-up technique for that matter, because of Qi deviations, remember this: It is better to face your inner demons and traumas than letting them eat you up from the inside!

Edited December 23, 2023 by Sleepy Bluejay
*Gramma*

[Jenn]

1 hour ago, Sleepy Bluejay said:

The psychological Qi deviation; is to face your inner demons and traumas. By overcoming psychological Qi deviation, you overcome your inner demons and traumas. Mental illnesses and disorders do not develop by Qi deviations, the illnesses and disorders were always there. Things that cause mental illnesses and disorders are abuse, childhood traumas, genetics, etc.
If you cannot overcome your traumas or “inner demons”, please seek professional medical help from a real psychiatrist and not a “healer”.

 

What will happen if your new practice is incomplete and someone becomes stuck in a state that is not healthy mentally?  Look up "dark night of the soul" - many people become stuck at various phases of facing inner demons and it is not healthy.  As someone who "fell" into all this innocently trying to simply work through with some traumas, I can tell you first hand, if this phase starts too aggressively, there is no getting off, you are in it until it completes and it is an extremely dark and long road with no one who can really help you or guide you.  Modern psychology isn't equipped to handle this type of qi deviation, and if you do not have a teacher and lineage, how do you find someone that can help you?  There are places so dark and hopeless that things like thoughts of suicide can arise, your life becomes unbearable so quickly you night not have the time to transition to something more suitable before you are no longer able to handle it, etc.  Some people might simply not be ready for such an onslaught, they might not have the mental / physical or financial qualities yet to see this safely to its conclusion.  

 

Looking back after finding daoism and practices with similar goals, I think the reason a lot of practices start off slow and emphasize virtue, learning and right thinking is that you have to have a lot of qualities in place before you can safely navigate the psychological impacts of aggressive "inner demon" work.  Or systems go bottom up, which lets you work through a lot of the stored emotions / etc, so by the time you move to the upper dantian and the mind, you have far less opportunity to become stuck in a psychological disorder than when trying to work with the mind before the body/emotions/lower energetics are ready and open.

 

2 hours ago, Sleepy Bluejay said:

The physical Qi deviation; is just regular malpractice of exercises that you will get from any basic workout if done incorrect.

 

Physical qi deviations can also arise from unsafe practices even if you follow that practice correctly.  They could be unsafe because they are unsafe, or because someone attempts them too early when they are not ready.  Your new practice is untested, so you yourself cannot now where the risky points are, what types of risks can arise.   

 

2 hours ago, Sleepy Bluejay said:

Saying people should not practice my made-up technique or anyone's made-up technique for that matter, because of Qi deviations, remember this: It is better to face your inner demons and traumas than letting them eat you up from the inside!

 

You have not yet seen your practice through to its end, inevitably you will need to adjust it as you go deeper into practice because life rarely unfolds exactly how we predict and the path is rarely a straight line to the end.  The reality is until you yourself see it through to its natural conclusion, you do not know if it is safe, robust enough to guide someone completely through the process, and what the end result will be. 

 

Your new technique could very well be excellent, but until you yourself see it through to the end, if that is what you chose to do, it isn't safe for others because there are too many unknowns and the process hasn't been tested for safety, effectiveness, etc.  I do look forward to hearing your feedback as you go and once you attain the final results of your process!  But please understand, others may not feel it is wise to try until it has been tested to its full conclusion. 

 

If you are interested in digging deeper into qi deviations (and have a little spare cash) Damo Mitchell has a course on these deviations, what can occur and at what stages the risks increase / etc that was pretty good.  It might be helpful in knowing what to watch out for in practice and how to adjust practice if "things get weird". 

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

Very good points @Jenn. Another question for @Sleepy Bluejay would be how are you going to fix any problems that someone who tries your method develops? If they get a qi deviation or worse, will you be able to help them get better?

[Maddie]

3 hours ago, Sleepy Bluejay said:

Someone made me think of Qi deviations and I gave it a thought.

Qi deviation

There are two versions of Qi deviation; one is psychological and the other is physical.

 

The psychological Qi deviation; is to face your inner demons and traumas. By overcoming psychological Qi deviation, you overcome your inner demons and traumas. Mental illnesses and disorders do not develop by Qi deviations, the illnesses and disorders were always there. Things that cause mental illnesses and disorders are abuse, childhood traumas, genetics, etc.
If you cannot overcome your traumas or “inner demons”, please seek professional medical help from a real psychiatrist and not a “healer”.

 

The physical Qi deviation; is just regular malpractice of exercises that you will get from any basic workout if done incorrect.

 

So quit using Qi deviations as an excuse for claiming a practice is bad!
Saying people should not practice my made-up technique or anyone's made-up technique for that matter, because of Qi deviations, remember this: It is better to face your inner demons and traumas than letting them eat you up from the inside!

 

From a TCM point of view, psychological disorders are not called Qi deviations. There are a wide range of conditions that are very nuanced but not one is called a "qi deviation". Just fyi. 

 

* typically I just let people think what ever they want to think, but if you are going to teach  this stuff to others its important to know what you are doing or real harm can be caused. 

Edited December 23, 2023 by Maddie

[Neirong]

56 minutes ago, Jenn said:

If you are interested in digging deeper into qi deviations (and have a little spare cash) Damo Mitchell has a course on these deviations, what can occur and at what stages the risks increase / etc that was pretty good.  It might be helpful in knowing what to watch out for in practice and how to adjust practice if "things get weird". 

Learn from a person who has multiple deviations including drugs addiction and unstoppable monkey mind (internal) dialogue.
Moreover, selling bullshido - fake martial arts along with his close friend Mizner and their Teacher Rasmus.

Who deserves more pity, the self-initiated or a cult victim? When you are a cult victim, you are buying into a false sense of security and safety because the Cult Leader tells you it is safe and because peers, which can be in hundreds and thousands, tell you it is safe and proven to work. But in reality, you may all be developing serious deviations and internal problems that will be close to impossible to fix later on.
 

 

3 hours ago, Sleepy Bluejay said:

Saying people should not practice my made-up technique or anyone's made-up technique for that matter

That is not the main reason to not bother with made-up techniques. The main reason is a time waste, even if you are a genius born once in a millenia, chances are you are going to invent a wheel, or maybe you will find out about karma. Spend 20-30 years to learn something that you could have learned in a day.

Time is the most valuable resource of a human, it is limited. Life is very short.

[Maddie]

17 minutes ago, Neirong said:

Learn from a person who has multiple deviations including drugs addiction and unstoppable monkey mind (internal) dialogue.
Moreover, selling bullshido - fake martial arts along with his close friend Mizner and their Teacher Rasmus.

Who deserves more pity, the self-initiated or a cult victim? When you are a cult victim, you are buying into a false sense of security and safety because the Cult Leader tells you it is safe and because peers, which can be in hundreds and thousands, tell you it is safe and proven to work. But in reality, you may all be developing serious deviations and internal problems that will be close to impossible to fix later on.
 

 

That is not the main reason to not bother with made-up techniques. The main reason is a time waste, even if you are a genius born once in a millenia, chances are you are going to invent a wheel, or maybe you will find out about karma. Spend 20-30 years to learn something that you could have learned in a day.

Time is the most valuable resource of a human, it is limited. Life is very short.

 

I love Dewey Ramsey and no non-sense people in general. 

 

* speaking of Dewey Ramsey (an MMA coach) and new techniques. MMA is probably the newest martial art there is. It has developed over the past few decades largely due to the advent of the UFC. It has been pressure tested over and over and is still in the process of developing. One of the reasons for its popularity is because it exposed delusional self proclaimed martial arts "master" that made up some crap that didn't work in the real world, the other and more important reason is that it actually works when pressure tested. 

  TCM has also been "pressure tested" for thousands of years which is how we know very well what works and does not work. 

Edited December 23, 2023 by Maddie

[Sleepy Bluejay]

1 hour ago, Jenn said:

 

Quote

What will happen if your new practice is incomplete and someone becomes stuck in a state that is not healthy mentally?  Look up "dark night of the soul" - many people become stuck at various phases of facing inner demons and it is not healthy.  As someone who "fell" into all this innocently trying to simply work through with some traumas, I can tell you first hand, if this phase starts too aggressively, there is no getting off, you are in it until it completes and it is an extremely dark and long road with no one who can really help you or guide you.

Quote

Modern psychology isn't equipped to handle this type of qi deviation, and if you do not have a teacher and lineage, how do you find someone that can help you?

 

Facing your inner demons and trauma is just to think about your problems. If your traumas and "inner demons" are that serious that you can't overcome them yourself, then seek professional help from an actually doctor. Again meditation and Qi deviations do not cause the mental health issues, that is something that was always there. Can't afford to go the the doctor or get a therapist? Not my responsibility. My technique did not cause you those illnesses or trauma and all you actually did was giving yourself some time to think.

 

What do you mean modern psychology isn't equipped to handle your qi deviation? Those doctors and therapists deals with mental illnesses, disorders, etc. daily. Seeking real help is better than seeking out cult leaders and crystal healers that will waste your money anyway.

Also what your "teacher" is teaching you is basically: empty your mind, put your mind elsewhere and seek nirvana. Basically you are to not think, give up your sense of self and become a puppet for a stranger that claims they are a master or teacher, a.k.a brainwashing.

 

1 hour ago, Jenn said:

Looking back after finding daoism and practices with similar goals, I think the reason a lot of practices start off slow and emphasize virtue, learning and right thinking is that you have to have a lot of qualities in place before you can safely navigate the psychological impacts of aggressive "inner demon" work.  Or systems go bottom up, which lets you work through a lot of the stored emotions / etc, so by the time you move to the upper dantian and the mind, you have far less opportunity to become stuck in a psychological disorder than when trying to work with the mind before the body/emotions/lower energetics are ready and open.

 

They don't start slow, in fact, the don't start at all. Tell me, is the feeling of energy warm in your guts while practicing? That is called body heat and is not spiritual. Did you feel exhausted after qigong? That is what happens when you dance for too long and again isn't spiritual.

All Tai Chi and Qigong is good for is to learn to move the energy while moving rather than sitting still.

1 hour ago, Jenn said:

Physical qi deviations can also arise from unsafe practices even if you follow that practice correctly.  They could be unsafe because they are unsafe, or because someone attempts them too early when they are not ready.  Your new practice is untested, so you yourself cannot now where the risky points are, what types of risks can arise.   

 

My technique is not physical exercises therefore you cannot get physical qi deviation.

[Maddie]

7 minutes ago, Sleepy Bluejay said:

Again meditation and Qi deviations do not cause the mental health issues, that is something that was always there. Can't afford to go the the doctor or get a therapist? Not my responsibility. My technique did not cause you those illnesses or trauma and all you actually did was giving yourself some time to think.

 

I guess you have not heard of "relaxation induced anxiety"?

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7288612/

 

[Sleepy Bluejay]

15 minutes ago, Neirong said:

That is not the main reason to not bother with made-up techniques. The main reason is a time waste, even if you are a genius born once in a millenia, chances are you are going to invent a wheel, or maybe you will find out about karma. Spend 20-30 years to learn something that you could have learned in a day.

Time is the most valuable resource of a human, it is limited. Life is very short.

All techniques are made up, the difference is that some are older than other.

Life is short but yet you still practice what other people claims is real while they still grow old and do not live any longer than averages.

[Sleepy Bluejay]

3 minutes ago, Maddie said:

 

I guess you have not heard of "relaxation induced anxiety"?

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7288612/

 

oh no, I guess meditating is bad for you!

[Maddie]

1 minute ago, Sleepy Bluejay said:

oh no, I guess meditating is bad for you!

 

That is quite an overgeneralization. Relaxation induced anxiety does not mean meditation is bad for everyone. It is a recognized psychological issue that affects a small percentage of the population. The reason I brought it up is because you think that meditation can not cause any psychological issues and it most certainly can in some people. 

[Sleepy Bluejay]

If meditation induces anxiety then clearly any practices of Taoism is just not for you and you should stick to the philosophic part of Taoism. May I recommend the Lao Zhu - Tao Te Ching.

[Maddie]

Just now, Sleepy Bluejay said:

If meditation induces anxiety then clearly any practices of Taoism is just not for you and you should stick to the philosophic part of Taoism. May I recommend the Lao Zhu - Tao Te Ching.

 

It seems that you didn't read the article. You are taking on the role of a practitioner. As such it is your responsibility to be aware of the various complications that can arise from the techniques that you teach and practice and how to deal with them. I'm not talking about myself, I'm talking about the field on a professional level as a professional. Resorting to sarcastic statements when someone is informing you about important issues that can arise is not professional. 

[Sleepy Bluejay]

12 minutes ago, Maddie said:

I'm not talking about myself, I'm talking about the field on a professional level as a professional.

"You misunderstand. I said I was a professional, I didn't mean to imply that you were. " mhmm

Edited December 23, 2023 by Sleepy Bluejay

[Maddie]

1 minute ago, Sleepy Bluejay said:

My responsibility, my ass. To claim anyone in this field is a "professional" is just stupid. The only teachers that need to be professional are those who give you physical training.

 

You misunderstand. I said I was a professional, I didn't mean to imply that you were. I was attempting to inform you as a professional about these concerns which you seem very dismissive of. You seem to be quite emotionally immature which is not a good selling point for the results of the system you are developing. I wouldn't take financial advice from a poor person and I would not seek to learn inner development from an emotionally immature person. 

[Master Logray]

Taoist alchemy comes from a culture that historically do not believe in psychological problems.   Apart from some "mad" or "crazy" people, you are a bad person that behave inappropriately if you have psychological issues.   It is the complete opposite of say modern Americans that attributes everything to psychology.  I think even Damo Mitchell has this observation.  I always wonder why so many people talk about psychological issues relating to Taoist cultivation.   It is alright to use this system to solve other issues, psychology being one.  But does it work or having results?  or have some hidden dangers?   Cultivation is a very long process that small mistakes in the beginning would lead to big problems later.

 

While the physical "deviation" is 90% of the problems in internal arts.  In fact it is dreaded.  For this reason, many people refrain from Qigong/Neigong/Neidan at all.

 

A new system that says physical deviation is usual malpractice is rather doubtful to me.  But I concur that "seek professional medical help from a real psychiatrist and not a “healer”."  is the right way.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

2 minutes ago, Maddie said:

 

You misunderstand. I said I was a professional, I didn't mean to imply that you were. I was attempting to inform you as a professional about these concerns which you seem very dismissive of. You seem to be quite emotionally immature which is not a good selling point for the results of the system you are developing. I wouldn't take financial advice from a poor person and I would not seek to learn inner development from an emotionally immature person. 

Yes, not only this but I doubt he even knows what effects his method will have on practitioners, let alone how to fix any problems that may arise. Doesn’t seem like he cares what happens to anyone who follows his method.

[liminal_luke]

Anything powerful can be powerful for good or ill -- depending on context and circumstance.  This is why it's hard to make generalizations about what diet a person should go on, what fitness regimen to undertake, which spiritual practices are most fitting.  All of these questions require individual discernment.  Each of us has to make our own choices, preferably (in many cases) with the help of professionals who can take into account our particular situations.

[Sleepy Bluejay]

2 minutes ago, Pak_Satrio said:

Yes, not only this but I doubt he even knows what effects his method will have on practitioners, let alone how to fix any problems that may arise. Doesn’t seem like he cares what happens to anyone who follows his method.

neither do you, yet you still have the guts to claim this and that

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

Just now, Sleepy Bluejay said:

neither do you, yet you still have the guts to claim this and that

So you admit you don’t know? And you still want people to try it out even if might do damage to themselves?

[Nintendao]

While it's true that focusing too much on the UDT too early can lead to some craziness, there's also plenty chances of fanatical LDT based practice causing perversions.

 

That said, Sleepy Bluejay's practices don't appear to be too extreme. They are poetic spin on what any off-the-shelf neidan book will point to. 

 

I'm not taking sides either way but as a personal framework i don't think it's worth badgering too much more over. There's no claim being made that it will even produce results. It's being presented as a hypothesis, open for anyone to do with or not, as they see fit for themself. 

 

Imagine some people are running around tossing a football at a park, and some jocks roll up and start explaining how what they are doing is not the actual game of football as defined by the NFL, and furthermore they need to put on helmets and pads or something bad will happen. 

 

[Sleepy Bluejay]

Just now, Pak_Satrio said:

So you admit you don’t know? And you still want people to try it out even if might do damage to themselves?

what damage? Will they explode like in novels? no?

Also yes I do, give it a try. But you wont cause you are too busy recommending scams to other people.

[Neirong]

35 minutes ago, Sleepy Bluejay said:

All techniques are made up, the difference is that some are older than other.

I don't think you entirely understand the amount of research and study done when developing a technique. And people who come to this stage ain't beginners with no experience. You would need to have some siddhi, like an open third eye, to observe energy flow. Have peer review and cross reference, have feedback from people trying your technique, to evaluate efficacy and so on. Some methods may work with some people but not work with everyone. Prerequisites have to met, usually if a technique has no prerequisites it is a beginner technique. Think of building a house with bricks; before you lay the roof, you have to do a lot of other things that may not be precisely that fascinating for your attention.
 

36 minutes ago, Sleepy Bluejay said:

Life is short but yet you still practice what other people claims is real while they still grow old and do not live any longer than averages.

Biological organisms do grow old, accumulate damage and die, that is normal and is not a problem of any sort.

[Sleepy Bluejay]

Listen all I know is that my technique actually allows you to feel your meridians taking the form what those acupuncture point maps point out. If you don't want to do it, then don't.

Edited December 23, 2023 by Sleepy Bluejay

[Sleepy Bluejay]

2 minutes ago, Neirong said:

 Think of building a house with bricks; before you lay the roof, you have to do a lot of other things that may not be precisely that fascinating for your attention.
 

My technique is based on the metaphor of a potato plant taking roots, not building a house.