Flowing zen, good for beginners?

[snowymountains]

I'm looking for an entry point to Qigong

 

It needs to meet 3 requirements

1) online based ( or old school aka book + dvd + forums ).

2) self paced, aka being able to go through the material during the times in the day when I have free time.

3) ability to Q&A the teacher, to resolve questions and make sure I do things correctly.

 

I have *zero* Qigong experience, I'm a complete beginner. As a side note I am athletic and experienced in (Buddhist) meditation.

 

Has anyone tried Flowing Zen? It seems to tick the above boxes.

 

Another option would be videos by Jwing-Ming Yang, though there's no Q&A there but I own some of his books

 

Another option would be Bruce Francis

 

Also, is there something equivalent to "receiving transmission" in Qigong, ie is it possible to easily check Qigong instructors lineages tracing them back to the origins of QiGong?

 

Any feedback on flowing zen ( or the two alternatives ) as an entry point to Qigong for a beginner would be appreciated 🙂

[senseless virtue]

My article might be useful even if not directly answering your question:

 

 

 

[snowymountains]

5 minutes ago, senseless virtue said:

My article might be useful even if not directly answering your question:

 

 

 

 

If I can't find a teacher who ticks the boxes I'll go 100% self study, and this may be fine, after all having a bit of beginners mind, especially now that I'm a beginner 😂 , certainly won't hurt.

 

But eg in meditation having an experienced teacher is a big plus. I've also learnt from reading, audiobooks and videos, after all some really good teachers have created material in these formats, but what I've learnt from direct contact with Theravadan monks and Zen masters progressed my meditation practice way more.

Same with sports, a good coach is a huge ally.

[senseless virtue]

32 minutes ago, snowymountains said:

Also, is there something equivalent to "receiving transmission" in Qigong, ie is it possible to easily check Qigong instructors lineages tracing them back to the origins of QiGong?

 

In some cases yes. Stillness-Movement Neigong, Tao Tan Pai, Flying Phoenix Qigong, and Shuigong have good pedigrees and excellent meditative results even in the modern era. All of them feature either energy transmission or traditional initiation at some point of the training as far as I understand.

 

13 minutes ago, snowymountains said:

If I can't find a teacher who ticks the boxes I'll go 100% self study, and this may be fine, after all having a bit of beginners mind, especially now that I'm a beginner 😂 , certainly won't hurt.

 

Michael Lomax, Sifu Terry Dunn, and Sifu John Dolic also teach online and do Q&A in case you are interested in more interaction.

 

22 minutes ago, snowymountains said:

I've learnt from direct contact with Theravadan monks and Zen masters progressed my meditation practice way more.

 

Why are you looking for qigong if you have found Buddhism?

[snowymountains]

2 minutes ago, senseless virtue said:

 

In some cases yes. Stillness-Movement Neigong, Tao Tan Pai, Flying Phoenix Qigong, and Shuigong have good pedigrees and excellent meditative results even in the modern era. All of them feature either energy transmission or traditional initiation at some point of the training as far as I understand.

 

 

Michael Lomax, Sifu Terry Dunn, and Sifu John Dolic also teach online and do Q&A in case you are interested in more interaction.

 

 

Why are you looking for qigong if you have found Buddhism?

 

Thank you !

 

For the latter part ( why QiGong ), I don't see it as a replacement for my meditation practice, more as a complement. 

I don't view the two as incompatible, ie there's a ( Zen ) monk from Plum Village who has a Qigong YT channel. Shaolin monks, which fall under Ch'an, also practice Qigong.

 

As to what I'm looking into getting that I don't get from Buddhist practices?

 

1) I need more energy during the day

 

2) some grounding, centering and shielding methods can become handy ( shielding has no coubterpart in Buddhist practices, the others do), As I  practice Dream Yoga, there if you get into a dream within a dream within a dream you lose lucidity and the above can come in handy.

 

3) transformation of sexual energy ( none less than TNH recommended Qigong for this )

 

 

So in short it's all related to energy, not looking to replace my spiritual practice.

 

Zen is definitely not at odds with Qigong, some Zen practitioners are also QiGong practitioners. In Theravada they may not be big fans but Qigong practice won't break any precepts taken either.

 

Buddhism is broad btw, maybe Vajrayana ticks some of these boxes as well, they also have body movement energetic practices Tsa-Lung, Krul Thor, their tantric practices perhaps also cover 3).

But Qigong knowledge is more widely available than Tsa Lung, I'm not a huge fan of the guru role in Vajrayana and I'd cherry pick a tantric technique only in isolation and only when there are no alternatives. Not meaning to sound negative, it's a great tradition, it's just not for me.

[senseless virtue]

9 minutes ago, snowymountains said:

shielding has no coubterpart in Buddhist practices

 

Sorry, but this doesn't sound true and you might be misinformed. There are plenty of shielding practices starting from basic ethical discipline to various mantras and dharanis in Paramitayana and then deity sadhanas in Vajrayana. Even reading certain Mayahana Sutras can make for reasonable shielding.

 

9 minutes ago, snowymountains said:

I'm not a huge fan of the guru role in Vajrayana and I'd cherry pick a tantric technique only in isolation and only when there are no alternatives.

 

Understandable. Be mindful though that many esoteric mantras are also used in all Mayahana and plenty of these don't require going to the tantric deep end. Yet, discussing these mantras even with your Ch'an or Zen teacher can be very helpful because following a valid teacher is the way to go.

Edited December 31, 2023 by senseless virtue
more information

[snowymountains]

2 minutes ago, senseless virtue said:

 

Sorry, but this doesn't sound true and you might be misinformed. There are plenty of shielding practices starting from basic ethical discipline to various mantras and dharanis in Paramitayana and then deity sadhanas in Vajrayana.

 

 

Understandable. Be mindful though that many esoteric mantras are also used in Mayahana and these don't require going to the tantric deep end. Yet, discussing these mantras even with your Ch'an or Zen teacher can be very helpful because following a valid teacher is the way to go.

 

It is true.

The equivalent of shielding, at least in Theravada, is practice of the four immeasurables.

My experience in practical terms is that this is to be interpreted as building "long term" shielding.

Folks who do dream/sleep practices tend to do more than that, right before sleep.Eg in Dream Yoga, it could be a small mantra before sleep and/or visualisation of Dakinis standing at the house's windows, doors, corridors etc.

 

I don't really enjoy that practice, one of the reasons being that Dakinis are something that's too far culturally speaking, at least for me, so I want another practice. The less Vajrayana I do, the better ( for me, not for everyone ).

 

Chanting indeed is also an energetic practice in Zen, there's no conflict there, plenty of folks who chant in Zen ( which anyhow happens regularly before Zazen ) also do Qigong.

 

There's also not much on transforming sexual energy, TNH recommended Qigong for this ( or yoga ) in his book on the 5 mindfulness trainings.

 

Essentially nothing is needed strictly speaking, eg sexual energy can also be transformed with Reichian psychology techniques and I'm sure there are other techniques for shielding too, for more energy into the day there are plenty of methods as well.

 

But as a "one stop shop" for filling the above gaps, Qigong seems to fit the bill nicely, so I'm going to pursue it.

[senseless virtue]

Ok, I don't have a clear view of what you are looking for in shielding so I'm stopping here.

 

4 minutes ago, snowymountains said:

Folks who do dream/sleep practices tend to do more than that, right before sleep.Eg in Dream Yoga, it could be a small mantra before sleep and/or visualisation of Dakinis standing at the house's windows, doors, corridors etc.

 

It might be interesting for you to learn that Shuigong also has protective visualizations in its dream practice. These aren't humanoid figures though.

 

4 minutes ago, snowymountains said:

There's also not much on transforming sexual energy

 

Bodhicitta. Either you use the extra energy in pursuits of altruistic love and higher causes or it escapes through habitual vices. That's how I see it, but you might want something else per your teacher's recommendation that you quote.

[snowymountains]

5 minutes ago, senseless virtue said:

Ok, I don't have a clear view of what you are looking for in shielding so I'm stopping here.

 

 

It might be interesting for you to learn that Shuigong also has protective visualizations in its dream practice. These aren't humanoid figures though.

 

 

Bodhicitta. Either you use the extra energy in pursuits of altruistic love and higher causes or it escapes through habitual vices. That's how I see it, but you might want something else per your teacher's recommendation that you quote.

 

Not being humanoid is a significant improvement, at least for me.

Thank you for the suggestion of Shuigong, I will look into it.

 

Re transforming sexual energy that's one way, not the only one nor for all usecases, different ways need not be in conflict also.

 

TNH is not my teacher btw, he's a ( now decreased ) prolific Zen master from Vietnam who founded plum village, I quoted him as a Mahayana authority, who clearly didn't see any conflict in practicing Qigong as a Buddhist and actually recommended it.

 

For energy work Qigong makes sense, Buddhism was not created to be an energy practice after all ( again Vajrayana folks may prefer to do their energy practices but personally Vajrayana is not my cup of tea ).

 

 

[senseless virtue]

47 minutes ago, snowymountains said:

again Vajrayana folks may prefer to do their energy practices but personally Vajrayana is not my cup of tea

 

Ok. I hope that you do keep your samaya vows intact if you have received any Vajrayana teachings like you seem to have. You mentioned about Dakinis and a portion of practice instructions that might require keeping it as secret from the non-initiated. You might want to edit your earlier post for this reason.

 

For those wondering what is samaya and how it relates to Gurus: it's pretty strict lifetime commitment and means to not wound the love and power which Guru bestows with the tantric initiation. Abusing the vows leads to hell rebirth unless the breaches are purified. Also, abandoning one's Guru leads to the karma that one will never again meet the teachings of Buddha in any future lifetime. Sounds pretty serious, but taking empowerments and accepting Gurus is a personal choice and everybody usually is well informed about what responsibilities it carries to both for the teacher and the student.

[Dainin]

I've taken the Flowing Zen Qigong 201 course twice and I'm currently taking the 101 course and can recommend them. The information is presented in a manner and at a pace so that it does not become overwhelming. The teacher is accessible and responds to questions. I've also taken workshops in person from the instructor as well as his ex teacher. If you're new to Qigong, I would recommend taking the 101 first, even though they say you can begin with either one. Regular Qigong practice should enhance your Zazen practice, at least that was my experience.

[snowymountains]

19 minutes ago, senseless virtue said:

 

Ok. I hope that you do keep your samaya vows intact if you have received any Vajrayana teachings like you seem to have. You mentioned about Dakinis and a portion of practice instructions that might require keeping it as secret from the non-initiated. You might want to edit your earlier post for this reason.

 

For those wondering what is samaya and how it relates to Gurus: it's pretty strict lifetime commitment and means to not wound the love and power which Guru bestows with the tantric initiation. Abusing the vows leads to hell rebirth unless the breaches are purified. Also, abandoning one's Guru leads to the karma that one will never again meet the teachings of Buddha in any future lifetime. Sounds pretty serious, but taking empowerments and accepting Gurus is a personal choice and everybody usually is well informed about what responsibilities it carries to both for the teacher and the student.

 

I want to leave my response intact

 

Also I kindly ask you to stop replying to this thread as most of what you respond with is either condescending, wrong or irrelevant

[snowymountains]

19 minutes ago, Dainin said:

I've taken the Flowing Zen Qigong 201 course twice and I'm currently taking the 101 course and can recommend them. The information is presented in a manner and at a pace so that it does not become overwhelming. The teacher is accessible and responds to questions. I've also taken workshops in person from the instructor as well as his ex teacher. If you're new to Qigong, I would recommend taking the 101 first, even though they say you can begin with either one. Regular Qigong practice should enhance your Zazen practice, at least that was my experience.

 

Thank you 😊 that's the aim, to augment the two.

 

Can I ask, does the teacher provide help with both experiental/practice questions as well as theory, to understand eg why an exercise is structured the way it is, with what it can be combined etc ?

[Dainin]

3 hours ago, snowymountains said:

 

Thank you 😊 that's the aim, to augment the two.

 

Can I ask, does the teacher provide help with both experiental/practice questions as well as theory, to understand eg why an exercise is structured the way it is, with what it can be combined etc ?

 

Yes, he receives and responds to all manner of questions. This is currently done in private FB groups, but I think he may be transitioning this function to another platform in the future...and there are also periodic live webinars where he takes questions during the course.

Edited December 31, 2023 by Dainin

[ChiDragon]

7 hours ago, snowymountains said:

I have *zero* Qigong experience, I'm a complete beginner. As a side note I am athletic and experienced in (Buddhist) meditation.

 

Has anyone tried Flowing Zen? It seems to tick the above boxes.

If you are experienced in (Buddhist) meditation already, then, why are you still questioning about Qigong and Zen? Qigong and Zen are already within the practice of Buddhist meditation. Perhaps you might want to look into the definitions of both Qigong and Zen. At least get to understand a little about Qigong before start looking for it? It is a confusing world out there about Qigong. Different people will tell you different things about it. However, if you are lucky, you might hit the jackpot. Peace!

Edited December 31, 2023 by ChiDragon

[snowymountains]

15 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

If you are experienced in (Buddhist) meditation already, then, why are you still questioning about Qigong and Zen? Qigong and Zen are already within the practice of Buddhist meditation. Perhaps you might want to look into the definitions of both Qigong and Zen. At least get to understand a little about Qigong before start looking for it? It is a confusing world out there about Qigong. Different people will tell you different things about it. However, if you are lucky, you might hit the jackpot. Peace!

 

"Flowing Zen" is the name of the Qigong school..

[ChiDragon]

16 minutes ago, snowymountains said:

 

"Flowing Zen" is the name of the Qigong school..

Okay! I had glance at the site. The founder knows about the secret of breathing and body moments. Breathing coordinates with the body moments and vice versa as in Taiji which I am very fond of. It has a tremendous biological effect and health benefits in the human body. Especially in healing. Thus that is what Qigong is all about.

[liminal_luke]

Not necessarily all "qigong" but some options to consider...

 

Authenticneigong

 

Taoist Alchemy Online (nathanbrine.com)

 

Robert Peng

 

For something along the lines of Buddhism but with a distinctly different flavor, consider Bon 

Ligmincha International | Ligmincha

 

If you prefer a very physical, somewhat athletic path to spiritual development, there's Korean Mountain Taoism

About SunDo International - SUNDO INTERNATIONAL

 

I have personal experience with the final three -- all very good.  (Now that I think of it though, the Sundo probably requires a bit of in-person training.  The others have online programs.)  The first two are more "alchemical" and "neidan-y" and also come highly recommended by other Bums.  

 

Oh, and I almost forgot, Dragon Gate Sanctuary What Is Dragon Gate Sanctuary - Newcomer Corner - The Dao Bums

Edited December 31, 2023 by liminal_luke

[ChiDragon]

8 hours ago, snowymountains said:

Has anyone tried Flowing Zen? It seems to tick the above boxes.

The course involves Taiji(太極) and Baduanjin(八段錦, eight brocade). Yes, It would be good for beginners.
 

Edited January 1 by ChiDragon

[Boreas]

Followed 101 and 201 here. Not an expert by any means in Qigong (trying to find a way in all of this) but here are my impressions on those courses.

 

On one side, I agree with what was said above: Anthony Korahais answers students questions quickly. He's committed, likeable,...

 

On another, I was a little bit disturbed by other things:

 

- While searching in past posts of Facebook group, I saw that he encouraged one of the student to mix his Qigong with Fragrant Qigong moves (one of the things to know with Fragrant Qigong is that you never mix it with something else, considering that style is proned to interfering with others)

 

- In 201, he teaches also 12 treasures that he learned apparently with Master Bingkun Hu. I was quite surprised when I discovered a video of that master teaching it as well: 

Closing part (not listed as one of the treasures) became first one and put as opening exercise, a lot of others were completely different between the two of them, and as Sifu Korahais transformed closing part into opening exercise, he completely ignores last treasure teached by Master Hu ( Primordial Qigong). 

 

- For this part, it's just a feeling so take it with a grain of salt:

While browsing groups' posts on FB, I tend to notice a tendency of people having little aches here and there or symptoms (insomnia, digestion,...) that were quickly and easily labelled as growing pains or cleansing. If it is true that qigong practice can cause this, it gave me the impression that some people were constantly or quite regularly under those states.

 

- Korahais said also to practice while emotional not being a big deal, even good to calm things down... I'm again not an expert, but it seems to be the only time I saw someone saying that it was ok to do energetic work while being angry/sad/... 

 

Here are my impressions and I'll end it by saying that if you want to make yourself an idea of what he teaches, you can buy his book. It comes with a little course that presents core of his Qigong method (5-Phase routine), so you can try his style and see how you feel about it without paying too much in the beginning.

[snowymountains]

On 12/31/2023 at 11:39 PM, liminal_luke said:

Not necessarily all "qigong" but some options to consider...

 

Authenticneigong

 

Taoist Alchemy Online (nathanbrine.com)

 

Robert Peng

 

For something along the lines of Buddhism but with a distinctly different flavor, consider Bon 

Ligmincha International | Ligmincha

 

If you prefer a very physical, somewhat athletic path to spiritual development, there's Korean Mountain Taoism

About SunDo International - SUNDO INTERNATIONAL

 

I have personal experience with the final three -- all very good.  (Now that I think of it though, the Sundo probably requires a bit of in-person training.  The others have online programs.)  The first two are more "alchemical" and "neidan-y" and also come highly recommended by other Bums.  

 

Oh, and I almost forgot, Dragon Gate Sanctuary What Is Dragon Gate Sanctuary - Newcomer Corner - The Dao Bums

 

Thanks for this, I will definitely take a look at the neigong/alchemy ones, I have zero familiarity with Daoist practices, so understanding the landscape is very useful.

In short what is the difference between neigong and alchemy arent they both meditative practices ?

 

I had taken most courses from Ligmincha in the past, Tenzin Rinpoche is a great tutor but ultimately these practices are somewhat incompatible with my theravada and zen practice where I have teachers to interact with, instead of a few weeks long course without the ability for continuous feedback during evolving practice.

 

It's also not everyone's cup of tea, especially when it comes to deities that are culturally too far for most westerners. To me they just feel like... marvel comics, as they're not part of my cultural heritage. As a side-note, C. Jung was also rather sceptical on practices where dualities with deities are broken, as are other analytical psychologists, in that sense i.e. animals real or imaginary ( i.e. dragons ) are a much better "companions" in meditations.

 

Tenzin Rinpoche is great though and has deep knowledge. If someone wants to see some Tibetan meditation, this is a good entry point. For those interested, he also runs courses at another site where he has an introductory course on the Bon version of samatha, some introductory dzogchen courses etc.

The Bon also follow a more relaxed Guru model, which is a good thing but again it can be difficult to find a Bon temple or centre for most folks, while a Zen Dojo will typically be accessible.

[liminal_luke]

53 minutes ago, snowymountains said:

 

Thanks for this, I will definitely take a look at the neigong/alchemy ones, I have zero familiarity with Daoist practices, so understanding the landscape is very useful.

In short what is the difference between neigong and alchemy arent they both meditative practices ?

 

 

Touche!  I'm not sure there is a difference between neigong and alchemy, although someone might make one somewhere.  Probably the more relevent distinction is between neigong/alchemy practices and ordinary qigong.  I think of qigong as movement forms, often short (as opposed to say tai chi) and repetitive, intended to move the chi in a way that is conducive to health.  Neigong, on the other hand, is deeper spiritual work aimed at transformation, enlightenment or "immortality" or whathaveyou.  Others no doubt have more precise definitions but this is my general impression.

Edited January 2 by liminal_luke

[Sahaja]

10 hours ago, liminal_luke said:

 

Touche!  I'm not sure there is a difference between neigong and alchemy, although someone might make one somewhere.  Probably the more relevent distinction is between neigong/alchemy practices and ordinary qigong.  I think of qigong as movement forms, often short (as opposed to say tai chi) and repetitive, intended to move the chi in a way that is conducive to health.  Neigong, on the other hand, is deeper spiritual work aimed at transformation, enlightenment or "immortality" or whathaveyou.  Others no doubt have more precise definitions but this is my general impression.

Neigong just means internal skill and can have a range of meanings  depending on how the teacher defines it. Internal martial arts like Tai Chi, Xing yi and Bagua often have a neigong process  to support their arts, particularly to help them use the body’s soft tissues to generate power.
Neigong can also be defined as the preparatory process or foundational process  for internal alchemy (neidan).  In this instance it would entail developing breathing techniques, awareness practices, building the Dan tian, opening/purging the channels, moving/thickening/building qi  and a range of other processes  to prepare the body and mind  to support the more advanced meditative processes of internal alchemy that would follow. It involves both static (seated and standing) and dynamic/moving practices.  Qi gong is an important  tool of this type of neigong process. There are crossovers/ overlaps/synergies between this form of neigong and those supporting the internal martial arts.  

[snowymountains]

Thanks to all who contributed to this 🧵.

 

My gut feeling for the instructor and the course is a good one.

 

From comments in this thread and from other threads I realised that the Daoist arts landscape is vast and deep, so a slow and steady approach to Qigong will probably be the better approach.

I guess there's little point in doing too many exercises at once as somatic memories need to be built for each one, this is a slow process and it's always good to spend some time on the basics.

 

I got the "Flowing Zen" book, which I'm currently reading. I will do the mini course that's linked to the book soon, and incorporate the exercises there into my current practice for 6 months.

After 6 months of practicing the basics on a daily basis, I will take a full Qigong course from flowing zen.

 

Edited January 5 by snowymountains