Greetings! Question about the Fall of man and infancy

[Apotheose]

Hello there!

I am a seeker of the Truth and a student of the Mysteries. All I can say is ‘all I know is that I know nothing’! And I say that with a joyful smile on my face! So I look forward to having interesting discussions in this forum and I hope I can learn from other members. Since I consider Life as the biggest Blessing, I couldn’t be more greatful for being able to share opinions with people who take part in the Great Work.

 

 

Also, I would like to ask a question about a specific matter. Recently I met an individual who - during a conversation - told me one very profound concept that I had never heard of. It was a very logical analogy between the Fall of man and infancy/adolescence/full age.

 

Keeping track of Macrocosmus/Microcosmus concept (“as above so below”), he presented the idea that: as there is a Fall of man in the “ethereal” realm, the same Fall occurs as life stages pass. The child is born pure and in very close contact with the Divine Essence. Childhood is (idealy) colorful and joyful, and is lived by the heart; there is little to no comparison between children as there is no Ego yet. Then, adolescense comes and the individual starts to aprehend social norms and patterns of what is “good” and “bad”. Finally, in the adulthood the Ego is fixed over the Heart; thus, the Ego hardens and it becomes difficult to take off the veils of sociality and consequently free the Inner Divinity. This would be the biggest Fall of man. And the solution would be to re-establish the connection (Christ etc.) between man and the Divine to be able to take off the veils of ignorance one by one.

 

The analogy empathizes three stages: Enlightenment (infancy); Fall (adolescense / adulthood); and Enlightenment again (virtually). Just as it may happen in the Macrocosmus.

 

 

Have you ever heard of this particular analogy? What do you think of it, and why? Would you consider succumbing to “sociality” as the best Fall of man’s correspondent in the Microcosmus?

 

Cheers!

[Nungali]

Hi and welcome .

 

I have found ( especially the first four stages of  )  Exopsychology   relevant  and more extensive to this idea .  Especially The commentaries and extensions of the theories  as put forward by Robert Anton Wilson .

 

As well as mapping these stages of development  in the individual they correlate them to stages in personal development  and stages in social development  (over time ) .

 

'The Fall of Man ' is in an interesting topic .  It can be approached from a spiritual perspective all the way through to an historical / anthropological one .

[silent thunder]

Hello Apotheose.  Great user name and intriguing first post.  Welcome to the Bums mate.

 

For some time the 'Fall of Man' for me has been a metaphor of the descent of awareness into the denser vibrations of 'physical matter' down from the higher aetherial subtle planes, bringing awareness out of unity consciousness and into the experience of the duality of complementary opposites.  Relating for me to the Hindu notions of discovery of one's true nature of expression through Neti Neti... 'not this not this' (here on the physical plane among the diverse 10,000 we may come to understand at greater depth what we are an expression of, by comparing it to what we come to realize we are not an expression of through the experience of diversity in form and function...)

 

Social evolution certainly highlights this and seems to be in an expression of intense de-coalescence to me, (particularly the influence of the industrial/techno anti-agrarian/hunter path of the last several centuries in medicine and farming particularly).

 

Endlessly fascinating to explore.  Again, welcome to the Bums.  Hope you enjoy your time here.

[Apotheose]

Thank you very much, Nungali and silent thunder!

[snowymountains]

Many folks have said similar things, ex macrocosmus , microcosmus, which I don't really see what they mean in this context,

 

In a spiritual setting you can look at the concept of "Unborn" by Zen master Bankei

 

With respect to the ego being a blocker for experiencing non-duality, read almost anything Mahayana.

In essence this is what the direct transmission from teacher to student is about in Zen, to experience non-duality, when the student is ready.

 

Though both of the above are not exactly divinity in the sense of an Abrahamic creator God, the above is from a Dharmic point of view.

 

Also you don't need a spiritual framework for this, at least not an institutional one,

 

C. Jung: “The first half of life is devoted to forming a healthy ego, the second half is going inward and letting go of it.”

 

But at the end of the day, something like this may sound nice or not nice, doesn't matter, the actual question is how to get an experiental glimpse of it and for this no forum responses will ever help.

Have you ever felt in every cell of your body that you are one with a loved one, a parent, a child? if you had this sort of experience, where the ego was completely off, it's a good starting point.

[Apotheose]

  On 1/10/2024 at 9:12 PM, snowymountains said:

Many folks have said similar things, ex macrocosmus , microcosmus, which I don't really see what they mean in this context,

 

In a spiritual setting you can look at the concept of "Unborn" by Zen master Bankei

 

With respect to the ego being a blocker for experiencing non-duality, read almost anything Mahayana.

In essence this is what the direct transmission from teacher to student is about in Zen, to experience non-duality, when the student is ready.

 

Though both of the above are not exactly divinity in the sense of an Abrahamic creator God, the above is from a Dharmic point of view.

 

Also you don't need a spiritual framework for this, at least not an institutional one,

 

C. Jung: “The first half of life is devoted to forming a healthy ego, the second half is going inward and letting go of it.”

 

But at the end of the day, something like this may sound nice or not nice, doesn't matter, the actual question is how to get an experiental glimpse of it and for this no forum responses will ever help.

Have you ever felt in every cell of your body that you are one with a loved one, a parent, a child? if you had this sort of experience, where the ego was completely off, it's a good starting point.

Very interesting response, thank you.

 

In my interpretation - and in this specific context - what I think he meant by bringing up the Macro/Microcosmus concept is that there is a correspondence between the Fall of Man that “happened” in the ‘Begining of Times’ - which is the de-coalescence of Oneness into duality - and that which happens in the everyday lives of people who let the Ego harden too much due to excessive imersion in social axioms.

 

As well as Adam and Eve fell from Divine’s Pure Grace and since “then” humanity is seeking out Reintegration, human psychology also Falls from non-duality (early childhood) to duality (teenage and adulthood), and then begins to search thirstly and uncounsciously for glimpes of the Divine Truth. 
That reminds me of a Jean-Jacques Rousseau quote, something along the lines of “man is naturally good, but corrupted by society”.

Correct me if I’m wrong, but I remember reading that the Age of Reason was heavily influenced by Rosicrucianism, so it wouldn’t be too bold to assume that their ideas were such of a mystical basis. Neither would it be too rash to assume that what Rousseau meant by “naturally good” is that man is born in close contact with his Divine Nature instead of succumbed to a fallen dualistic mind.

 

We shall be careful not to analyse the Fall of Man - in this particular context - from a pure christian standpoint, because that would much likely lead to a more pessimistic view (that of sin/evil), which would not be accurate in this case. But, in fact - at least in the Western world -, I’ve noticed that despite having a good family background and a great infancy, people tend to lose completely the connection to the Cosmic, and it’s probably due to it being a highly reason based society. Idealy, childhood is joyful and composed by lots of those exact glimpses of Egolessness you mentioned, but as time passes it slowly fades away. That’s why I found the analogy so fascinating, since it is pretty similar to the Fall of Man concept.

 

And that wouldn’t mean that humanity has fallen into Sin or Evil, but just - as you stated - Duality. Notice that there’s no duality in the Oneness, whereas there’s nothing but duality in people who got too engaged with social paradigms and life’s contingencies. Not to be judgemental, of course, but notice that non-mystics can only differentiate one from another by comparing themselves (social life, heath, wealth), since they are not aware of their true Nature as they were when they were kids. Comparison is all there is for the majority of humanity. Comparing eachother - in my view - is the most immediate symptom of an existence based just on duality.

 

Some great Yogis have stated that only in an authentic Path (to Samadhi) you can understand the nature of things by how they truly are, and not by comparing them with other things.

 

Just as coldness is not an entity but heat’s absense, and darkness is nothing but light’s absense, egoic actions are a form of Divine’s absense, which is an observeable phenomenon as life stages pass.

[Apotheose]

An interesting quote:

 

Matthew 18:3 - “Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the Kingdom of Heaven”

[Bindi]

  On 1/11/2024 at 2:58 AM, Apotheose said:

Very interesting response, thank you.

 

In my interpretation - and in this specific context - what I think he meant by bringing up the Macro/Microcosmus concept is that there is a correspondence between the Fall of Man that “happened” in the ‘Begining of Times’ - which is the de-coalescence of Oneness into duality - and that which happens in the everyday lives of people who let the Ego harden too much due to excessive imersion in social axioms.

 

As well as Adam and Eve fell from Divine’s Pure Grace and since “then” humanity is seeking out Reintegration, human psychology also Falls from non-duality (early childhood) to duality (teenage and adulthood), and then begins to search thirstly and uncounsciously for glimpes of the Divine Truth. 
That reminds me of a Jean-Jacques Rousseau quote, something along the lines of “man is naturally good, but corrupted by society”.

Correct me if I’m wrong, but I remember reading that the Age of Reason was heavily influenced by Rosicrucianism, so it wouldn’t be too bold to assume that their ideas were such of a mystical basis. Neither would it be too rash to assume that what Rousseau meant by “naturally good” is that man is born in close contact with his Divine Nature instead of succumbed to a fallen dualistic mind.

 

We shall be careful not to analyse the Fall of Man - in this particular context - from a pure christian standpoint, because that would much likely lead to a more pessimistic view (that of sin/evil), which would not be accurate in this case. But, in fact - at least in the Western world -, I’ve noticed that despite having a good family background and a great infancy, people tend to lose completely the connection to the Cosmic, and it’s probably due to it being a highly reason based society.
 

 

I think there are two fundamental strands in a human being, reason and emotion, in western society in general reason is cultivated and emotion curtailed. To be truly whole I believe both strands need to be nurtured and cultivated and that’s just the starting point 🙂

 

  7 hours ago, Apotheose said:

 

Idealy, childhood is joyful and composed by lots of those exact glimpses of Egolessness you mentioned, but as time passes it slowly fades away. That’s why I found the analogy so fascinating, since it is pretty similar to the Fall of Man concept.

 

And that wouldn’t mean that humanity has fallen into Sin or Evil, but just - as you stated - Duality. Notice that there’s no duality in the Oneness, whereas there’s nothing but duality in people who got too engaged with social paradigms and life’s contingencies. Not to be judgemental, of course, but notice that non-mystics can only differentiate one from another by comparing themselves (social life, heath, wealth), since they are not aware of their true Nature as they were when they were kids. Comparison is all there is for the majority of humanity. Comparing eachother - in my view - is the most immediate symptom of an existence based just on duality.

 

Some great Yogis have stated that only in an authentic Path (to Samadhi) you can understand the nature of things by how they truly are, and not by comparing them with other things.

 

Just as coldness is not an entity but heat’s absense, and darkness is nothing but light’s absense, egoic actions are a form of Divine’s absense, which is an observeable phenomenon as life stages pass.

 

[Sir Darius the Clairvoyent]

  On 1/11/2024 at 3:36 AM, Apotheose said:

An interesting quote:

 

Matthew 18:3 - “Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the Kingdom of Heaven”

I am afraid to of boring people to death here, as i have posted this chapter (only two pages long) about five times allready, but it reasonates deeply with me. Since i havent bothered you with it yet, and it choose «the child» as the final stage of development, maybe youll find it interresting. Hope so, at least:)

 

https://www.anthologialitt.com/amp/the-three-metamorphoses-by-friedrich-nietzsche

[Cobie]

  On 1/11/2024 at 10:22 AM, Bindi said:

… in general reason is cultivated and emotion curtailed … both strands need to be nurtured and cultivated …

And this is imo exactly what Laozi said too (Ch 42): 

 

All turn their backs on the Yin, and embrace the Yang. Centring the circulating life force, will create harmony.  

萬 物 負 陰 而 抱 陽 中 氣 以 為 和

wàn wù fù yīn ér bào yáng zhōng qì yǐ wéi hé  

 

 

Edited January 11, 2024 by Cobie

[Apotheose]

  On 1/11/2024 at 8:54 PM, NaturaNaturans said:

I am afraid to of boring people to death here, as i have posted this chapter (only two pages long) about five times allready, but it reasonates deeply with me. Since i havent bothered you with it yet, and it choose «the child» as the final stage of development, maybe youll find it interresting. Hope so, at least:)

 

https://www.anthologialitt.com/amp/the-three-metamorphoses-by-friedrich-nietzsche

It really resonated with me too, thank you NaturaNaturans. I feel that sometimes we need to utter a ‘Sacred No’ to be able to unlearn what we have learned.

 

This is one thing I’ve found out in my Journey… That unlearning things that we allowed to settle in front of our Pure Consciousness is a secure and inevitable path to the Truth.

 

It takes a ‘lion spirit’ to shout a ‘Sacred No’ to those things that burden us, those same that we used to accept when we were ‘camel spirits’. And we accepted it only because of ignorance (not knowing/or knowing too much maybe?).

And to become like a child again (Matthew 18:3) is to become free again.

 

I’ve always been keen on the Psychology Science. And what fascinates me is how children indeed have that very vivid sparkle of Divine Wisdom in them. And that’s probably because they really know nothing; they just ‘Are’.

 

They ‘Are’ just like ‘Thou-shalt’ be.

Edited January 12, 2024 by Apotheose

[Nungali]

  On 1/11/2024 at 11:56 PM, Apotheose said:

It really resonated with me too, thank you NaturaNaturans. I feel that sometimes we need to utter a ‘Sacred No’ to be able to unlearn what we have learned.

 

This is one thing I’ve found out in my Journey… That unlearning things that we allowed to settle in front of our Pure Consciousness is a secure and inevitable path to the Truth.

 

It takes a ‘lion spirit’ to shout a ‘Sacred No’ to those things that burden us, those same that we used to accept as a ‘camel spirit’. And we accepted it only because of ignorance (not knowing/or knowing too much maybe?).

And to become like a child again (Matthew 18:3) is to become free again.

 

I’ve always been keen on the Psychology Science. And what fascinates me is how children indeed have that very vivid sparkle of Divine Wisdom in them. And that’s probably because they really know nothing; they just ‘Are’.

 

They ‘Are’ just like ‘Thou-shalt’ be.

 

My friend was telling me last month about her daughter when she was four  .  Her husband and daughter's dad had just died . They went through a lot but it was so intense and busy she had not really had time to grieve . Then a bit later they went for a walk in the forest, my friend said she could feel it welling up inside her  and she couldnt stop it. She ended up lying on the ground and  " ... I cried so much my tears made a puddle of mud  and I was lying there with my face in it unable to move starting to bubble and breathe the mud into my mouth and nose  ."  Her  daughter sat by her stoking her for over a half  hour saying  " Dont worry Mummy , Daddy is dead now but that just means he is everywhere ... he is in the forest, in the air  and the ground and he is inside us too . Dont worry , I will stay with you . " 

 

She said she eventually came out of it and her daughter led her by hand back to the car .

 

There are a few amazing little kids around here , sometimes I have the pleasure of minding them .

 

Another friend lives near a caravan park by a river .  Relatives visited and after a bit they noticed the 6 yo boy was missing . They went searching , he had been gone about 20 mins . In that time he had wandered the caravan park, made friends with two old guys , one lent him some fishing tackle , another some bait , he went down to the wharf and another old guy had shown him how to bait and cast .... and he had 3 fish in the bucket !  

 

 

Edited January 12, 2024 by Nungali

[Apotheose]

  On 1/12/2024 at 3:30 AM, Nungali said:

 

My friend was telling me last month about her daughter when she was four  .  Her husband and daughter's dad had just died . They went through a lot but it was so intense and busy she had not really had time to grieve . Then a bit later they went for a walk in the forest, my friend said she could feel it welling up inside her  and she couldnt stop it. She ended up lying on the ground and  " ... I cried so much my tears made a puddle of mud  and I was lying there with my face in it unable to move starting to bubble and breathe the mud into my mouth and nose  ."  Her  daughter sat by her stoking her for over a half  hour saying  " Dont worry Mummy , Daddy is dead now but that just means he is everywhere ... he is in the forest, in the air  and the ground and he is inside us too . Dont worry , I will stay with you . " 

 

She said she eventually came out of it and her daughter led her by hand back to the car .

 

There are a few amazing little kids around here , sometimes I have the pleasure of minding them .

 

Another friend lives near a caravan park by a river .  Relatives visited and after a bit they noticed the 6 yo boy was missing . They went searching , he had been gone about 20 mins . In that time he had wandered the caravan park, made friends with two old guys , one lent him some fishing tackle , another some bait , he went down to the wharf and another old guy had shown him how to bait and cast .... and he had 3 fish in the bucket !  

 

 

Wow, that was really intense!

[Apotheose]

An interesting poem:

“Your children are not your children.
     They are the sons and daughters of Life’s longing for itself.
     They come through you but not from you,
     And though they are with you yet they belong not to you.

     You may give them your love but not your thoughts,
     For they have their own thoughts.
     You may house their bodies but not their souls,
     For their souls dwell in the house of tomorrow, which you cannot visit, not even in your dreams.
     You may strive to be like them, but seek not to make them like you.
     For life goes not backward nor tarries with yesterday.
     You are the bows from which your children as living arrows are sent forth.
     The archer sees the mark upon the path of the infinite, and He bends you with His might that His arrows may go swift and far.
     Let your bending in the archer’s hand be for gladness;
     For even as He loves the arrow that flies, so He loves also the bow that is stable.”

 

Khalil Gibran

from “The Prophet” (1923)

[snowymountains]

So what it is that you are after,

 

A path that makes promises enlightenment and offers some means to track progress?

To study a philosophical framework that deals with enlightenment, interconnectedness and some form of divine?

To gain experiental insights ?

 

Enlightenment is what all spiritual paths promise, each one comes with a ton of philosophical frameworks and theology works around them. Most offer an experiental path as well.

 

In my view one can't go wrong by reading Jung, doing some a mindfulness course, doing some form of long term therapy.

 

After that just pick a system that you like, avoid cults, focus on a functional and ethical organization, find a teacher that suits your needs, to learn some techniques to form the basis of your practice, have a community to discuss etc.

 

Beyond that, as Krishamurti said,

 

"The guru becomes useless when there is a particle of self-knowledge. No guru, no book or scripture, can give you self-knowledge", I'd add no forum to that too 😁

[Apotheose]

  On 1/12/2024 at 11:03 AM, snowymountains said:

So what it is that you are after,

 

A path that makes promises enlightenment and offers some means to track progress?

To study a philosophical framework that deals with enlightenment, interconnectedness and some form of divine?

To gain experiental insights ?

 

Enlightenment is what all spiritual paths promise, each one comes with a ton of philosophical frameworks and theology works around them. Most offer an experiental path as well.

 

In my view one can't go wrong by reading Jung, doing some a mindfulness course, doing some form of long term therapy.

 

After that just pick a system that you like, avoid cults, focus on a functional and ethical organization, find a teacher that suits your needs, to learn some techniques to form the basis of your practice, have a community to discuss etc.

 

Beyond that, as Krishamurti said,

 

"The guru becomes useless when there is a particle of self-knowledge. No guru, no book or scripture, can give you self-knowledge", I'd add no forum to that too 😁

My objectives are to live and always learn more. Thanks for the advice!

 

By Divine’s Grace I’ve had a good family and character development. No traumas, fortunately. So, for me, personally, “classic” psychological therapies tend to unroll in a superficial fashion; since its whole foundation is that of trauma basis (“to grizzle”). That’s why I find Jung’s works fascinating too. Because he transcended the orthodoxy of Psychological Sciences and understood that the alchemy behind human psychology is the very same alchemy of the existence’s mysteries.

Edited January 12, 2024 by Apotheose

[Sir Darius the Clairvoyent]

Just popped back in because 1) i loved it, 2) it got me thinking that rather than to learn, we should maybe want to «forget» (the programming). I know that was basically what the thread is about, but it struck me a little different now.

 

All the insecurities of trying to fit in, endless hours of reading stuff i dont give a f about, trying to improve and forgetting to live. 
 

As children we are allways told, «be yourself, everyone else is taken.» BS, young me thought. But the people i like, are the one who truly are who they are, with all their flaws.

 

Thank you

[Sir Darius the Clairvoyent]

Just came accross this:

 

Lifetime is a child at play, moving pieces in a game. Kingship belongs to the child.

As quoted in The Art and Thought of Heraclitus (1979)

 

Seems to have been a common metaphor in at least western thought since tje beginning.

[Sir Darius the Clairvoyent]

Edit: wrong thread 

Edited February 11, 2024 by NaturaNaturans