Does Taoism use "direct pointing"

[snowymountains]

I was wondering, do Daoist arts often include the practice of direct pointing from teacher to student? If so, is this a "core" method for transmitting knowledge?

 

The reason I'm asking is more to understand how the culture of secrecy has survived just fine in the internet era. My gut tells me there's something beyond oral transmission at play, but I could be wrong.

 

Not intending to open a discussion on direct pointing ( which tbh in my view it's overrated in terms of significance ), but if transmission in Daoist arts does use it a lot, it could well explain how secrecy has survived in the open information era, as a core "educational tool" wouldn't be exactly a piece of information.

[Antares]

Yes they do. But this method is mostly closed for westerners. Even in China it is rare case these days

[snowymountains]

7 minutes ago, Antares said:

Yes they do. But this method is mostly closed for westerners. Even in China it is rare case these days

 

I see, thanks for responding. Is this one of the main reasons why "secrets" still exist in the Daoist arts?

[Antares]

1 minute ago, snowymountains said:

 

I see, thanks for responding. Is this one of the main reasons why "secrets" still exist in the Daoist arts?

Well, all methods are secret from the beginning, some initial methods are less secret but transmission "from heart to heart" is more for advanced students. It is mostly for the seniors. Not many westerners received it. Chinese teachers dont wish to give it out outside of China

[Neirong]

1 hour ago, snowymountains said:

I was wondering, do Daoist arts often include the practice of direct pointing from teacher to student? If so, is this a "core" method for transmitting knowledge?

Esoteric teachings normally involve non-verbal transmissions at a certain level of practice. Words won't do much to teach you about things unknown to the general public.
It is usually better to see once for yourself, than to imagine 1000 times or read one hundred books about it.
 

1 hour ago, snowymountains said:

but if transmission in Daoist arts does use it a lot, it could well explain how secrecy has survived in the open information era, as a core "educational tool" wouldn't be exactly a piece of information.

Open information and internet are actually making the valuable knowledge less accessible. The perfect way to hide a leaf would be in the forest.

[snowymountains]

Thanks both for your comments.

It sounds like my suspicion is confirmed.

 

Then I guess I'll do a Qigong course to learn the basics, and as long as the initial goals will be ( hopefully ) achieved, I won't be diving deeper into Qigong or Daoist arts.

 

It sounds like a bad effort/reward ratio compared to other things to try to progress beyond the current baseline available in the West.

The good news is that the baseline available in the West seems fine to me with respect to what I want to get out of it, as I don't seek something too esoteric.

[Antares]

11 hours ago, snowymountains said:

Then I guess I'll do a Qigong course to learn the basics, and as long as the initial goals will be ( hopefully ) achieved, I won't be diving deeper into Qigong or Daoist arts.

Not all qigong systems are good. 99 % of them are just sort of calisthenics. The best option is to find lineage and to follow their preparation steps prior to more advanced daoist methods

[Maddie]

56 minutes ago, Antares said:

Not all qigong systems are good. 99 % of them are just sort of calisthenics. The best option is to find lineage and to follow their preparation steps prior to more advanced daoist methods

 

What's wrong with calisthenics? 

[Antares]

11 minutes ago, Maddie said:

 

What's wrong with calisthenics? 

 

How do you think what is the purpose  of the Dao teaching? And how much qigong and calisthenics can help it?

[snowymountains]

18 minutes ago, Maddie said:

 

What's wrong with calisthenics? 

 

It's great but I wouldn't pay a Qigong teacher to make calisthenics workouts for me, just as I wouldn't pay a fitness coach to teach me Qigong.

[snowymountains]

1 hour ago, Antares said:

Not all qigong systems are good. 99 % of them are just sort of calisthenics. The best option is to find lineage and to follow their preparation steps prior to more advanced daoist methods

 

The issue I gather is that for the higher ones it's a pita to find someone who knows them, and then pitax2 to get him to share all info on them.

 

It's also a question on goals, eg I want to learn some things about energy, expand my daily energy routines beyond some techniques I practice ( which are not Daoist ) and find some techniques for specific goals I have.

 

If I get to there, it's enough for me, I don't intend to change my main meditation practice, nor do I have any goals to go deep into study of the Taoist beliefs and methods on immortality.

 

I'm sure there's a lot more to Daoist arts than what I'll do and some of it may be extremely interesting too, but for me it's about cherry picking what I want in order to blend it to my existing practice.

 

Think of it as the equivalent of a runner who goes to a weight lifting class to expand and improve their strength training routine by a little, not to totally change what they do and become experts in strength training.

[Maddie]

36 minutes ago, Antares said:

 

How do you think what is the purpose  of the Dao teaching? And how much qigong and calisthenics can help it?

 

I have no idea honestly.

 

Ask ten Taoists get thirteen answers.

Edited January 8 by Maddie

[snowymountains]

1 minute ago, Maddie said:

 

I have no idea honestly.

 

Ask ten Taoists get thirteen answers.

Sooo, it's "subjective" ? 😁

[Maddie]

2 minutes ago, snowymountains said:

Sooo, it's "subjective" ? 😁

 

Is there such a thing as an understanding of a spiritual experience that is not subjective?

[Antares]

19 minutes ago, snowymountains said:

It's also a question on goals, eg I want to learn some things about energy, expand my daily energy routines beyond some techniques I practice ( which are not Daoist ) and find some techniques for specific goals I have.

 

One day I stumbled upon a young women who did tree stance in the yard near by a house and she was not doing it right way for she was standing with crooked spine. So I waited a little and asked her what exactly she was doing. She said this is famous tree stance from a renowned Chinese "daoist master". I said that the posture she was doing it was incorrect and the "master" is not really follower of the Daoist teaching and he is just a qigong teacher who pursues his own goals and at the final stage this is actually a shamanic method and so on. She replied that's OK as she has her own goals and she does it for the her career promotion and that this is not my business what she is doing. I walked away saying no more words... So first of all one need to define goals. Second issue is how qigong appeared and what and how much it can help 

[Antares]

14 minutes ago, Maddie said:

I have no idea honestly.

 

Have you ever read the Dao De Jing? What Dao, De and Jing mean?

[snowymountains]

3 minutes ago, Antares said:

One day I stumbled upon a young women who did tree stance in the yard near by a house and she was not doing it right way for she was standing with crooked spine. So I waited a little and asked her what exactly she was doing. She said this is famous tree stance from a renowned Chinese "daoist master". I said that the posture she was doing it was incorrect and the "master" is not really follower of the Daoist teaching and he is just a qigong teacher who pursues his own goals and at the final stage this is actually a shamanic method and so on. She replied that's OK as she has her own goals and she does it for the her career promotion and that this is not my business what she is doing. I walked away saying no more words... So first of all one need to define goals. Second issue is how qigong appeared and what and how much it can help 

 

Qigong for me is to augment some Zen energy techniques I already practice. Tibetan practices ( tsa lung, Krul Thor) are not my cup of tea, so Qigong instead. I will try a course from flowing Zen at some point in the summer, it doesn't look new agey to me.

 

Now if there's a lot more in Qigong, then there's a lot more, I just won't learn it.

It's important to keep scope bound to the goals to reach, otherwise hiking is great too, as is yoga, as are many other things but the day only has 24 hours.

[Maddie]

15 minutes ago, Antares said:

 

Have you ever read the Dao De Jing? What Dao, De and Jing mean?

 

Yes, and it doesn't make sense to me.

[Antares]

6 minutes ago, snowymountains said:

Qigong for me is to augment some Zen energy techniques I already practice.

 

Well, what is Zen? Zen is Japanese name for

Quote

Chan (traditional Chinese: 禪; simplified Chinese: 禅; pinyin: Chán; abbr. of Chinese: 禪那; pinyin: chánnà), from Sanskrit dhyāna (meaning "meditation" or "meditative state"^]), is a Chinese school of Mahāyāna Buddhism. It developed in China from the 6th century CE onwards, becoming especially popular during the Tang and Song dynasties.

Chan is the originating tradition of Zen Buddhism (the Japanese pronunciation of the same character, which is the most commonly used English name for the school). Chan Buddhism spread from China south to Vietnam as Thiền and north to Korea as Seon, and, in the 13th century, east to Japan as Japanese Zen.

So I guess you do some Japanese exercises. And you have not got enough energy for achieving the state of Dhyana?

[snowymountains]

Just now, Antares said:

 

Well, what is Zen? Zen is Japanese name for

So I guess you do some Japanese exercises. And you have not got enough energy for achieving the state of Dhyana?

 

It's completely irrelevant to Dhyanas/Jhanas, you need exactly zero energy practices to enter these. In Theravada they don't do any energy practices at all and they enter Jhana just fine, in Zen too energy cultivation has nothing to do with attaining them.

[Maddie]

Just now, snowymountains said:

 

It's completely irrelevant to Dhyanas/Jhanas, you need exactly zero energy practices to enter these. In Theravada they don't do any energy practices at all and they enter Jhana just fine, in Zen too energy cultivation has nothing to do with attaining them.

 

I was about to say that the prerequisite for Jhana isn't energy rather it's concentration. 😉

[snowymountains]

7 minutes ago, Maddie said:

 

I was about to say that the prerequisite for Jhana isn't energy rather it's concentration. 😉

 

Actually any practice done specifically to attain Jhana can work against attaining it, as the key is letting go.

This is likely why in Zen they've thrown away the instruction manual on how to attain them, intellectual knowledge of steps makes it harder for some people to attain Jhana because they cling to the process and don't let go.

[Maddie]

Just now, snowymountains said:

 

Actually any practice done specifically to attain Jhana can work against attaining it, as the key is letting go.

This is likely why in Zen they've thrown away the instruction manual on how to attain them, intellectual knowledge of steps makes it harder for some people to attain Jhana because they cling to the process and don't let go.

 

This is excellent!

[Antares]

3 minutes ago, snowymountains said:

it harder for some people to attain Jhana because they cling to the process and don't let go.

I used to train with such a "teacher" in Dojo for 3 years who said "just let it go" (and dont forget to pay me money). I was stupid and young and I paid... But at least it was good calisthenics system (Aikido + fake tai chi + sitting)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Maddie]

1 minute ago, Antares said:

I used to train with such a "teacher" in Dojo for 3 years who said "just let it go" (and dont forget to pay me money). I was stupid and young and I paid... But at least it was good calisthenics system (Aikido + fake tai chi + sitting)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Hey calisthenics are good for you! Lol. I came to the conclusion years ago that most Qigong was calisthenics and I got disillusioned and I quit. And then one day I was like wait a second, calisthenics are really good for you there's nothing wrong with that. LOL