Does Taoism use "direct pointing"

[Sahaja]

3 minutes ago, snowymountains said:

 

Actually any practice done specifically to attain Jhana can work against attaining it, as the key is letting go.

This is likely why in Zen they've thrown away the instruction manual on how to attain them, intellectual knowledge of steps makes it harder for some people to attain Jhana because they cling to the process and don't let go.

‘The key is letting go” - the tricky bit is that mind and body are highly connected. It’s not just the mind that has to let go. 

[snowymountains]

9 minutes ago, Antares said:

I used to train with such a "teacher" in Dojo for 3 years who said "just let it go" (and dont forget to pay me money). I was stupid and young and I paid... But at least it was good calisthenics system (Aikido + fake tai chi + sitting)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I can't know if that teacher was good or bad.

The key however actually is letting go, he was right on that. Japanese Zen has zero instructions on how to enter Jhanas, zero, nothing.

 

If you want instructions on how to enter them, my advice is to work within the Theravada tradition, they have very detailed instructions for all meditations and it's a great tradition.

 

I'm practicing both Theravada and Zen, they're both amazing in different ways. If you want to hear a fun fact, the first time I had entered Jhana it was during Zazen and wasn't aware of the Theravada instructions at the time, I didn't even know that this state had a name.

So indeed the key is letting go, including letting go of any goals to reach any state.

[Antares]

11 minutes ago, Maddie said:

 

Hey calisthenics are good for you! Lol. I came to the conclusion years ago that most Qigong was calisthenics and I got disillusioned and I quit. And then one day I was like wait a second, calisthenics are really good for you there's nothing wrong with that. LOL

The WRONG was I wasted my pre heaven qi for that and my time and money. The older you are the less abilities you have to attain Dhyana for you waste your inborn qi level

[snowymountains]

4 minutes ago, Sahaja said:

‘The key is letting go” - the tricky bit is that mind and body are highly connected. It’s not just the mind that has to let go. 

 

That's too broad a statement, how meditation is treated depends on the meditative tradition 

 

In Zazen practice the body and mind are one.

In Theravada it's purely a mind exercise.

[snowymountains]

3 minutes ago, Antares said:

The WRONG was I wasted my pre heaven qi for that and my time and money. The older you are the less abilities you have to attain Dhyana for you waste your inborn qi level

Honestly I think you're complicating the view on this, there no need to bring energy in the picture.

 

 Join a Zen dojo close to you, meditate daily for 45+ mins.

One day after, about a year so, when you'll go for a long/multi-hour session in your dojo, it will just happen.

There's no secret sauce to it, really.

 

If you want someone to give you more instructions join a Theravada center near you.

 

Imo either way won't make much of a difference, you could even join both and split your weekdays between the two traditions. They're both great 👍

[Maddie]

5 minutes ago, snowymountains said:

 

That's too broad a statement, how meditation is treated depends on the meditative tradition 

 

In Zazen practice the body and mind are one.

In Theravada it's purely a mind exercise.

 

After years of studying Theravada I think this is a weak area as I got really out of shape with this nothing but the mind matters approach. But you are correct that is how they approach things.

[Antares]

20 minutes ago, snowymountains said:

I can't know if that teacher was good or bad.

He is good for profane people but bad for senсere people who are looking the authentic IMA with goal of "enlightenment"

Edited January 8 by Antares

[snowymountains]

10 minutes ago, Maddie said:

 

After years of studying Theravada I think this is a weak area as I got really out of shape with this nothing but the mind matters approach. But you are correct that is how they approach things.

 

Theravada's weak point in my view as well is the body. A TLDR version of the Theravada view is exercise as much as WHO says it's good for health and nvm that WHO has given the same instructions for 16year olds and 90 year olds who just need a little blood circulation to make it to 91.

There is nothing explicit in the precepts, even monastic ones, against exercise but the overall vibe is like that.

 

Just take what's good from each tradition, follow their advice on meditation, which is stellar but also don't take their advice on the body and hit the gym.

Some may say that hitting the gym is incompatible, well, I'll believe it when I experience it, the whole process is meant to be experiental after all.

Edited January 8 by snowymountains

[Antares]

6 minutes ago, snowymountains said:

Honestly I think you're complicating the view on this, there no need to bring energy in the picture.

 

If you have energy you can get Dhyana state, but no energy no Dhyana.

[Maddie]

3 minutes ago, Antares said:

 

If you have energy you can get Dhyana state, but no energy no Dhyana.

 

The eightfold path as taught by the Buddha includes Dhyana but there's nothing about energy.

[Maddie]

4 minutes ago, snowymountains said:

 

Theravada's weak point in my view as well is the body. A TLDR version of the Theravada view is exercise as much as WHO says it's good for health and nvm that WHO has given the same instructions for 16year olds and 90 year olds who just need a little blood circulation to make it to 91.

There is nothing explicit in the precepts, even monastic ones, against exercise but the overall vibe is like that.

 

Just take what's good from each tradition, follow their advice on meditation, which is stellar but also don't take their advice on the body hit the gym.

Some may say that hitting the gym is incompatible, well, I'll believe it when I experience it, the whole process is meant to be experiental after all.

 

In Theravada these days it almost seems like it's an unwritten rule that exercise is forbidden.

[Antares]

1 minute ago, Maddie said:

 

The eightfold path as taught by the Buddha includes Dhyana but there's nothing about energy.

The buddhist teaching was corrupted. The old Chan is the same as old school Dao teaching. But later all that was corrupted 

[Maddie]

3 minutes ago, Antares said:

The buddhist teaching was corrupted. The old Chan is the same as old school Dao teaching. But later all that was corrupted 

 

What source do you have to show that your position is correct?

[snowymountains]

Just now, Maddie said:

 

In Theravada these days it almost seems like it's an unwritten rule that exercise is forbidden.

 

Their reasoning is that caring too much for the body is clinging at best and narcissistic at worst.

I respect Theravada tremendously and practice it but can't agree on this, "too much" is .. subjective.

The Buddha after all never said that athletes won't become enlightened, so imo they should specialise the teaching into something along the lines of "clinging to an impermanent condition of the body is an impedance for progress".

[Maddie]

11 minutes ago, snowymountains said:

 

Their reasoning is that caring too much for the body is clinging at best and narcissistic at worst.

I respect Theravada tremendously and practice it but can't agree on this, "too much" is .. subjective.

The Buddha after all never said that athletes won't become enlightened, so imo they should specialise the teaching into something along the lines of "clinging to an impermanent condition of the body is an impedance for progress".

 

This basically sounds like the dilemma that Bodhidharma came across at The Shaolin Temple when he first got there and the monks were out of shape. He developed exercises for them.

[snowymountains]

4 minutes ago, Antares said:

The buddhist teaching was corrupted. The old Chan is the same as old school Dao teaching. But later all that was corrupted 

 

 

Ch'an is Buddhist, it is based more on the Chinese agamas, rather than the Pali Suttas, so it has a different textual basis but it still Buddhist ( of course Mahayana sutras are part of it's textual basis as well ).

 

There's direct pointing too of course and lineage texts and oral transmissions but it's not void of links to original Buddhist texts.

 

Of course as Ch'an and Daoism were in the same geographical area, there may well have been cultural exchanges, but the textual basis is Buddhist.

 

The energy practices in specific perhaps are of Daoist origin, I really can't know because I'm not familiar with Daoist energy practices.

 

Btw some Ch'an lineages have retained instructions on the Dhyanas (Jhanas).

 

Imo which of the three traditions you pick doesn't matter much, it sounds like you had a bad experience with a bad teacher, find another one, see if they have received transmission, if you like them as persons, if they and their students are dedicated to serious practice, don't act like a cult and look stable.

[Maddie]

1 hour ago, Antares said:

(Aikido + fake tai chi + sitting)

 

I don't know if this will make you feel any better but I can find merit in all three of those.

 

1. In Aikido you learn to fall properly and this is really useful for real life.

 

2. And Tai chi you're moving and especially the joints and specifically the spine and this is really good for you.

 

3. Sitting is the basis for Jhana again a good use of your time.

 

Hopefully this helps you not feel like you wasted so much time because I think these things are useful.

[Antares]

10 minutes ago, Maddie said:

 

What source do you have to show that your position is correct?

Well it comes from daoist lineages (not even one).  You can read more here:

https://www.all-dao.com/difference-qigong-alchemy.html

 

[Maddie]

1 minute ago, Antares said:

Well it comes from daoist lineages (not even one).  You can read more here:

https://www.all-dao.com/difference-qigong-alchemy.html

 

 

That article explained why Daoist alchemy and Qigong are not the same thing. 

 

I didn't say anything about the Buddha's teachings being corrupted.

[Antares]

14 minutes ago, Maddie said:

 

That article explained why Daoist alchemy and Qigong are not the same thing. 

 

I didn't say anything about the Buddha's teachings being corrupted.

There is another article about withering contemplation, withered Chan. These days people are trying to achieve Dhyana with these corrupted methods. Also we know nothing about old Buddhism teaching and what exactly Buddha practiced. I saw another articles in this regard but not all of them are in English

Edited January 8 by Antares

[Maddie]

11 minutes ago, Antares said:

There is another article about withering contemplation, withered Chan. These days people are trying to achieve Dhyana with these corrupted methods. Also we know nothing about old Buddhism teaching and what exactly Buddha practiced. I saw another articles in this regard but not all of them are in English

 

Scholars agree that the majority of the pali cannon probably contains most of what the Buddha actually taught.

 

 

 

 

Edited January 8 by Maddie

[Antares]

19 minutes ago, Maddie said:

Scholars agree that the majority of the pali cannon probably contains most of what the Buddha actually taught.

 

In this case you have to go to Buddhist forums and read what scholars write to you

[Maddie]

4 minutes ago, Antares said:

In this case you have to go to Buddhist forums and read what scholars write to you

 

I was responding to your claim that the Buddha's is teaching were corrupted, but you have presented no evidence to support this claim.

[snowymountains]

7 minutes ago, Antares said:

There is another article about withering contemplation, withered Chan. These days people are trying to achieve Dhyana with these corrupted methods. Also we know nothing about old Buddhism teaching and what exactly Buddha practiced. I saw another articles in this regard but not all of them are in English

 

The core Buddhist meditations per Suttas is really a contained set of concise practices.

It's simple stuff, and I mean this is in a very good way. Simple is practical, simple works.

 

Agamas and Suttas are different textual sources , from different regions, that more often than not agree with each other ( there are some differences ofc ), so that's the proof that the teachings have not been greatly altered.

 

There are some Buddhist lineages, which feel like they've incorporated so much from other traditions that I wonder if Buddhism or the other traditions have become the focus, but Ch'an is certainly not one of them and neither are Theravada or Zen.

[Antares]

3 minutes ago, Maddie said:

 

I was responding to your claim that the Buddha's is teaching were corrupted, but you have presented no evidence to support this claim.

I say what daoist teachers say. How can it be proven? Also you can try to do what scholars suggest you. After 20 years you will see how it works (or not). What I can see - old people with no energy teach other people how to....

Edited January 8 by Antares