Does Taoism use "direct pointing"

[Maddie]

4 minutes ago, Antares said:

I say what daoist teachers say. How can it be proven? Also you can try to do what scholars suggest you. After 20 years you will see how it works (or not). What I can see - old people with no energy teach other people how to....

 

Well as a history major I can tell you there's several ways it can potentially be proven such as an older document shown to be authentic differing widely from more contemporary documents just for one example. But I would rather know if something's correct before I waste 20 years of my life practicing it.

[Sahaja]

36 minutes ago, snowymountains said:

 

Their reasoning is that caring too much for the body is clinging at best and narcissistic at worst.

I respect Theravada tremendously and practice it but can't agree on this, "too much" is .. subjective.

The Buddha after all never said that athletes won't become enlightened, so imo they should specialise the teaching into something along the lines of "clinging to an impermanent condition of the body is an impedance for progress".

A good deal of the minds clinging takes place in or is stored in the body, often below the level of consciousness. When you become aware of it somatically and it starts to release, conditions arise that support moving towards the Jhanic states but they also release a lot of energy that you need to contend with that can be quite intense.  While one needs a level of physical fitness to support a sitting based practice so that you have a body to sit with , I think the truth goes quite a bit deeper than this.  Bodhidharma purportedly said there are  something like 7 levels to it. 

[Antares]

2 minutes ago, Maddie said:

Well as a history major I can tell you there's several ways it can potentially be proven such as an older document shown to be authentic differing widely from more contemporary documents

Major methods never transmitted in paper and documents. Big part of teaching is oral and energy transmission

[Maddie]

4 minutes ago, Antares said:

Major methods never transmitted in paper and documents. Big part of teaching is oral and energy transmission

 

That's fine but it doesn't change the fact that if you're going to make a claim that the Buddhas teachings got corrupted you need to have a way to support this claim.

[Antares]

5 minutes ago, Maddie said:

 

That's fine but it doesn't change the fact that if you're going to make a claim that the Buddhas teachings got corrupted you need to have a way to support this claim.

Find daoist teacher and ask him. This is only the solution

[Maddie]

2 minutes ago, Antares said:

Find daoist teacher and ask him. This is only the solution

 

Ooooor..... and hear me out, find an actual primary source like documentation that proves the point. 

[snowymountains]

22 minutes ago, Sahaja said:

A good deal of the minds clinging takes place in or is stored in the body, often below the level of consciousness. When you become aware of it somatically and it starts to release, conditions arise that support moving towards the Jhanic states but they also release a lot of energy that you need to contend with that can be quite intense.  While one needs a level of physical fitness to support a sitting based practice so that you have a body to sit with , I think the truth goes quite a bit deeper than this.  Bodhidharma purportedly said there are  something like 7 levels to it. 

 

 

It is true our body has its own memory and its own automated reactions, I don't see why athletics is a blocker for meditation though nor have I experienced a hinderance because of exercise.

On this I can't agree with the Theravada point of view.

Also the Theravada view ( it's Theravada who's not too keen on exercise after all ) is that the hinderance is attachment, eg to an impermanent athletic body, not any energy considerations.

 

Some body memories or bodily automatic reactions of course could be a hinderance. People even start therapy because of it as it can cause issues even in everyday life, nevermind attaining meditative states.

But that's something different.

 

To go off-buddhism in this paragraph, indeed there are somatic memories and automated reactions coming purely from the body.

However the root cause for these is stored in the amygdala. 

The more modern treatment for that is to work with the amydgala, as treating the root cause there will also eventually lead to treatment of the bodily reaction.

All this however is not related to exercising really. It's about blockages, that may affect meditation or even tasks in daily life in more profound cases.

Edited January 8 by snowymountains

[Antares]

4 minutes ago, Maddie said:

 

Ooooor..... and hear me out, find an actual primary source like documentation that proves the point. 

Even if I find such a document you will say that this is wrong document

[Maddie]

22 minutes ago, Antares said:

Even if I find such a document you will say that this is wrong document

 

you're projecting motive and intent onto me. 

[Antares]

10 minutes ago, Maddie said:

 

you're projecting motive and intent onto me. 

which intent? you are in daoist discussion. you have posted so many posts and not even read what people have written here for 10+ years. do research first, i cant do it for you

[Maddie]

4 minutes ago, Antares said:

which intent? you are in daoist discussion. you have posted so many posts and not even read what people have written here for 10+ years. do research first, i cant do it for you

 

you're changing the topic. We were discussing if your claim about the Buddha's teachings being corrupted was true or not. I asked for the verifiable reason you believe this to be true. So far you have not presented one. If you were to do so I would find it to be an interesting piece of information and want to know more. Telling me to do "research" is a deflection. 

[Antares]

Just now, Maddie said:

We were discussing if your claim about the Buddha's teachings being corrupted was true or not.

 

Have you ever read daoist scriptures? Being here for 15 years

[Maddie]

41 minutes ago, Antares said:

 

Have you ever read daoist scriptures? Being here for 15 years

 

Of course

[doc benway]

22 hours ago, snowymountains said:

I was wondering, do Daoist arts often include the practice of direct pointing from teacher to student? If so, is this a "core" method for transmitting knowledge?

 

The reason I'm asking is more to understand how the culture of secrecy has survived just fine in the internet era. My gut tells me there's something beyond oral transmission at play, but I could be wrong.

 

Not intending to open a discussion on direct pointing ( which tbh in my view it's overrated in terms of significance ), but if transmission in Daoist arts does use it a lot, it could well explain how secrecy has survived in the open information era, as a core "educational tool" wouldn't be exactly a piece of information.

 

Yes, my Daoist teacher used this method during my meditation instruction. I have no idea if it is used often as I’ve only had one teacher. I can say that it was probably the single most important teaching I received from him with respect to understanding how to practice properly. 

[Antares]

4 minutes ago, Maddie said:

 

Of course

That's good and why you think daoists criticized buddhist methods in their scriptures even in scriptures which are dated from 9-10th centuries? (need to check dates again)

[snowymountains]

10 minutes ago, steve said:

 

Yes, my Daoist teacher used this method during my meditation instruction. I have no idea if it is used often as I’ve only had one teacher. I can say that it was probably the single most important teaching I received from him with respect to understanding how to practice properly. 

 

Thanks, then it's clear why secrecy has survived well in the internet era.

I had a gut feeling this was something beyond dependency on oral transmission.

 

It's a method that works but imo it's not an irreplaceable tool. 

[Maddie]

8 minutes ago, Antares said:

That's good and why you think daoists criticized buddhist methods in their scriptures even in scriptures which are dated from 9-10th centuries? (need to check dates again)

 

I've only read the DDJ and I've not seen any such criticism. 

 

But to answer your question as to why they might criticize I have no idea other than human beings tend to be critical? I really don't know.  

[Antares]

4 minutes ago, Maddie said:

But to answer your question as to why they might criticize I have no idea other than human beings tend to be critical? I really don't know.  

 

Daoists could see the energy and what happens with one's energy if one does incorrect methods and where it leads. 

[Sahaja]

9 minutes ago, Maddie said:

 

I've only read the DDJ and I've not seen any such criticism. 

 

But to answer your question as to why they might criticize I have no idea other than human beings tend to be critical? I really don't know.  

Used to be debates between Daoists and Buddhists in China. I think one time the Buddhists won and Daoists lost political power. Think it went the other way one time. 
tantric Saivism also used to debate the Buddhists (in Kashmir, Nepal etc) Big criticism of Buddhists was nihilism (and being foreign in China) Buddhists also beat up well on the Hindus and Dsoists though I don’t recall off the top of my head what the main points were. 

[Antares]

8 minutes ago, Sahaja said:

Used to be debates between

It is not only about saying words but it is the matter of achievements. I think you heard about daoist immortals. Of course there could be achievements among buddhists in Tibet (rainbow body achievements) but not in China. So here I talked about withered Chan because Zen (Chan) was mentioned here

[Sahaja]

2 hours ago, snowymountains said:

 

 

It is true our body has its own memory and its own automated reactions, I don't see why athletics is a blocker for meditation though nor have I experienced a hinderance because of exercise.

On this I can't agree with the Theravada point of view.

Also the Theravada view ( it's Theravada who's not too keen on exercise after all ) is that the hinderance is attachment, eg to an impermanent athletic body, not any energy considerations.

 

Some body memories or bodily automatic reactions of course could be a hinderance. People even start therapy because of it as it can cause issues even in everyday life, nevermind attaining meditative states.

But that's something different.

 

To go off-buddhism in this paragraph, indeed there are somatic memories and automated reactions coming purely from the body.

However the root cause for these is stored in the amygdala. 

The more modern treatment for that is to work with the amydgala, as treating the root cause there will also eventually lead to treatment of the bodily reaction.

All this however is not related to exercising really. It's about blockages, that may affect meditation or even tasks in daily life in more profound cases.

Mind affects body and body affects mind. Web MD talks about addressing problems with the amygdala (dysregulation of emotions and behaviors) with embodied practices (meditation, exercise and deep breathing). 

 

the amygdala’s role reminds me of the use of five phases (or five elements)  in alchemy to manage emotions and ultimately move beyond them to get to the one light. 

 

as far as pointing, if you are referring to direct transmission of information I think it’s pretty common in both Daoist internal Arts and yoga. Note that one definition of qi is as a form of information  flow.  I am sure there are many different levels and types.

[Maddie]

16 minutes ago, Sahaja said:

Used to be debates between Daoists and Buddhists in China. I think one time the Buddhists won and Daoists lost political power. Think it went the other way one time. 
tantric Saivism also used to debate the Buddhists (in Kashmir, Nepal etc) Big criticism of Buddhists was nihilism (and being foreign in China) Buddhists also beat up well on the Hindus and Dsoists though I don’t recall off the top of my head what the main points were. 

 

Political power is definitely a motive.

[snowymountains]

1 hour ago, Sahaja said:

Mind affects body and body affects mind. Web MD talks about addressing problems with the amygdala (dysregulation of emotions and behaviors) with embodied practices (meditation, exercise and deep breathing). 

 

the amygdala’s role reminds me of the use of five phases (or five elements)  in alchemy to manage emotions and ultimately move beyond them to get to the one light. 

 

as far as pointing, if you are referring to direct transmission of information I think it’s pretty common in both Daoist internal Arts and yoga. Note that one definition of qi is as a form of information  flow.  I am sure there are many different levels and types.

 

Re amygdala it's important to distinguish techniques for when eg someone enters fight or flight ( eg breathing exercises) vs therapy to "reprogram" automatic reactions. The two are very different, eg meditation and breathing does typically won't change automatic reactions, therapy is needed for that.

 

No clue on Daoist 5 element alchemy techniques so can't comment on whether there are relevant concepts there.

I don't know how similar they are to Daoist ones ( as I don't know the Daoist ones ) but Tibetan Buddhist 5 elements meditations ( a different 5 elements system btw ) do include regressions.

Though these things are done much better by working with a therapist who uses modern methods. 

 

Thanks for the direct transmission info, makes it clear how the veil of secrecy has managed to hold..

[Sahaja]

I think secrecy is more straightforward, they say this is not for you to share.  they teach you in private and tell you to practice in private/not to share without permission. 

 

While there are things like Xin Yin (mind seal) , bai shi (lineage inductions) and associated concepts such as magical knowledge, I think the key to learning from a traditional Daoist perspective is really humility.  In the old Daoist texts humility was defined as a space or hole in the heart that creates room for knowledge to enter. If there is true humility creating space, great wisdom will enter, sometimes in ways that are hard to understand. While false humility is common, true humility is not easy nor common.  
 

A large percentage of people going through a neigong process have some kind of issue stored in their bodies  they have to face and release as part of their process. A lot of the time this comes out as zi fa gong (spontaneous actions ). Some of this stuff is pretty strange (not just shaking) but it eventually passes if  the person does not attach to it and doesn’t make it into something bigger than it needs to be.  Working through it actual has some benefit. 

 

[Antares]

On 1/13/2024 at 2:23 AM, Sahaja said:

I think secrecy is more straightforward, they say this is not for you to share.  they teach you in private and tell you to practice in private/not to share without permission. 

Of course. That is why you can not find such methods somewhere in public "Dojos" (open for everyone) and "training centres" (where you just "pay and train"). Even if this is "closed group" teachers will hide secrets. Normally they give out only sets of exercises saying that this is nei kung (internal work). This can be the case but they dont provide proper explanations of how to do it. Far not all people who teach it really understand what they teach. They may have some achievements but how profound they are is big question.  Regarding to this topic what exactly is "direct pointing"? Pointing to what?