Does Taoism use "direct pointing"

[johndoe2012]

I think the following quote from The Secret of the Golden Flower, Wilhelm translation is a direct pointing

 

Quote

The Light is not in the body alone, neither is it only outside the body. Mountains and rivers and the great Earth are lit by the sun and moon; all that is the Light. Therefore it is not only in the body. Understanding and clarity, knowing and enlightenment, and all motion (of the spirit), are likewise this Light; therefore it is not only outside the body.

 

Good for contemplation.

[Taoist Texts]

On 07.01.2024 at 10:34 PM, snowymountains said:

I was wondering, do Daoist arts often include the practice of direct pointing from teacher to student? If so, is this a "core" method for transmitting knowledge?

no and no;) Simply because there never was such thing as  "direct pointing from teacher to student" . " Direct pointing " is a characteristic of Bodhi's teaching. It is absolutely not a method of transmission from teacher to student although it may sound like one. It is something that a practicer does on his own. This phrase:

Quote

 

describes the teaching of the Zen school that enlightenment is not achieved through scriptural or doctrinal study, but by directly beholding and penetrating the true nature of the mind through seated meditation (zazen ).

http://tibetanbuddhistencyclopedia.com/en/index.php?title=Direct_pointing_to_the_human_mind

 

 

It is a Chan/Zen thing, Daoists may or may not use this phrase ocassionally, but it is not what we do;)

[Antares]

25 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

Simply because there never was such thing as  "direct pointing from teacher to student"

It depends what "direct pointing" means. It is not possible to understand the path of Dao without "transmission". There can be "pointing" at different aspects of practices.   

[snowymountains]

44 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

no and no;) Simply because there never was such thing as  "direct pointing from teacher to student" . " Direct pointing " is a characteristic of Bodhi's teaching. It is absolutely not a method of transmission from teacher to student although it may sound like one. It is something that a practicer does on his own. This phrase:

 

It is a Chan/Zen thing, Daoists may or may not use this phrase ocassionally, but it is not what we do;)

 

In Zen it's not really a set of teachings that's transmitted, it's difficult to pin it exactly with words but the closest thing to it is e.g. being together with close family and at the same time happening to share the same thought or same sensation, feeling like one but also without loss of personal identity. Tbh anyone with kids has probably experienced this as a sensation.

 

That said, that in itself is a teaching, and it also is a teaching method, this sort of "sync" between teacher and student is core to how the teacher helps the student progress in Zen, at least Rinzai where this is relevant for koans among other things.

 

So it's not something the practitioner does alone.

 

In terms of necessity, can e.g. Koans be progressed without this? via e.g. doing Q&A via emails with a teacher? I think in principle it should be entirely possible, yes. But in practice this is how it's done.

 

The above was to give a context on why reliance on this can block spreading of a practice, simply because alternative teaching methods for a curriculum have not been developed.

In Zen it's not done for secrecy reasons (plenty of publications on Koans), it's just how the teaching method has historically settled to be and probably what distinguishes Zen from other Mahayana lineages.

 

So I gather in Daoism this is not a core of the teaching method then and this is not the root of the secrecy on various methods.

Edited January 14 by snowymountains

[blue eyed snake]

On 7-1-2024 at 7:34 PM, snowymountains said:

I was wondering, do Daoist arts often include the practice of direct pointing from teacher to student? If so, is this a "core" method for transmitting knowledge?

 

The reason I'm asking is more to understand how the culture of secrecy has survived just fine in the internet era. My gut tells me there's something beyond oral transmission at play, but I could be wrong.

 

Not intending to open a discussion on direct pointing ( which tbh in my view it's overrated in terms of significance ), but if transmission in Daoist arts does use it a lot, it could well explain how secrecy has survived in the open information era, as a core "educational tool" wouldn't be exactly a piece of information.

 

I had some direct pointing from teacher. But no idea whether that is a core method or whether it is used often. 

I am deeply grateful for these pointings as they were important to me.

 

Further I was told that in the past the " deeper teachings" were only transmitted when a student was ready and worthy. Meaning when a teacher did not have a worthy student the knowledge would disappear when the teacher left the earthly sphere.

 

but also, from the outside, looking like secrecy 

[snowymountains]

Just now, blue eyed snake said:

 

I had some direct pointing from teacher. But no idea whether that is a core method or whether it is used often. 

I am deeply grateful for these pointings as they were important to me.

 

Further I was told that in the past the " deeper teachings" were only transmitted when a student was ready and worthy. Meaning when a teacher did not have a worthy student the knowledge would disappear when the teacher left the earthly sphere.

 

but also, from the outside, looking like secrecy 

 

What context are you using, was this a Daoist teacher ?

In Zen this is how interviews with a teacher work and how one progresses.

If a teacher passes, there typically are other teachers in the same lineage.

[blue eyed snake]

Yes, a daoist teacher.

't was like a sort of direct transmission of information, not an interview, he hardly ever talked about this sort of stuff.

 

[Taoist Texts]

1 hour ago, Antares said:

It depends what "direct pointing" means.

oh it means whatever the westerners speculate it means;) in your case you speculate that 2 different chinese words mean the same thing: i.e pointing means transmission. good for you;)

1 hour ago, snowymountains said:

In Zen it's not really a set of teachings that's transmitted

well the Zen founder, Bodhidharma begs to differ “不立文字，教外别传，直指人心，见性成佛”

but hey...;)

[Maddie]

I'm just going to interject here because I have no idea what anyone is talking about lol.

[Antares]

3 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

in your case you speculate that 2 different chinese words mean the same thing: i.e pointing means transmission.

they are interrelated. texts research won't help much

[Master Logray]

8 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

oh it means whatever the westerners speculate it means;) in your case you speculate that 2 different chinese words mean the same thing: i.e pointing means transmission. good for you;)

well the Zen founder, Bodhidharma begs to differ “不立文字，教外别传，直指人心，见性成佛”

but hey...;)

 

Reading your link, it doesn't seem to imply anything about psychic transmission of information, if it is what the title has indirectly pointed to.

[Antares]

Just now, Master Logray said:

Reading your link, it doesn't seem to imply anything about psychic transmission of information, if it is what the title has indirectly pointed to.

I would not take seriously what he writes here. He has no clue what these texts about

[Taoist Texts]

7 minutes ago, Maddie said:

I have no idea what anyone is talking about lol.

we have none either so welcome to the club!

3 minutes ago, Master Logray said:

Reading your link, it doesn't seem to imply anything about psychic transmission of information

of course not. because there is no such thing and because the original chinese phrase means nothing of the sort. the westerners twisted the phrase to suit their speculations as to what pointing or transmission means in chinese

 

直指人心 ( a teaching which is about) pointing to the human heart; not pointing to student what he should do. heh, such twisting of the original is  so funny, gets me every time;)

 

[Antares]

2 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

we have none either so welcome to the club!

Yes indeed

[snowymountains]

17 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

well the Zen founder, Bodhidharma begs to differ “不立文字，教外别传，直指人心，见性成佛”

but hey...;)

 

I can't translate the Chinese characters so can't respond/comment but no information is transferred in direct transmission in that no data is transmitted, very roughly speaking it feels more like a shared state of mind.

In Zen student-teacher interviews teachers do talk btw, which would had been superfluous if they operated under the assumption that they can transmit whole teachings with direct transmission.

[snowymountains]

12 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

we have none either so welcome to the club!

of course not. because there is no such thing and because the original chinese phrase means nothing of the sort. the westerners twisted the phrase to suit their speculations as to what pointing or transmission means in chinese

 

直指人心 ( a teaching which is about) pointing to the human heart; not pointing to student what he should do. heh, such twisting of the original is  so funny, gets me every time;)

 

 

Ok so your point is that it's been translated in the west in the wrong way, perhaps it is, I can't comment on how to translate a language I don't know.

 

But it's not hugely relevant either because the teachers who do the teacher-student interview have (verifiable) dharma transmission, they don't rely on how to do it on a text's translation, they rely on the transmission and teaching of their teacher.

[snowymountains]

44 minutes ago, Master Logray said:

 

Reading your link, it doesn't seem to imply anything about psychic transmission of information, if it is what the title has indirectly pointed to.

 

In Zen, it's not transmission of information no, information is transmitted verbally in teacher-student interviews, see my earlier post on roughly what it is.

[Antares]

56 minutes ago, snowymountains said:

n Zen student-teacher interviews teachers do talk btw, which would had been superfluous if they operated under the assumption that they can transmit whole teachings with direct transmission.

It depends what you mean by "direct transmission". Some teachers can share their energy to get student to certain state, another teacher transmit methods only, it really depends on a lineage and student' state and ability to grasp methods, also methods differ. 

[snowymountains]

2 minutes ago, Antares said:

It depends what you mean by "direct transmission". Some teachers can share their energy to get student to certain state, another teacher transmit methods only, it really depends on a lineage and student' state and ability to grasp methods, also methods differ. 

 

Do you refer to Daoist tradition with the above ?

 

In Zen I'm not aware of any teacher who perceives direct transmission as a method to do "data transfer", it's more about sharing a mental state (though again, this is a rather crude way of describing it), but the teaching's "data transfer" is done with words.

[Master Logray]

I have googled this line.  All sources say the direct pointing is self pointing.  A Buddhist doesn't have to follow the system, but can directly refer to one's own heart/Buddha nature.   There is no implication of psychic transmission of information, no sync between 2 persons.  It is a solo internal matter.   From the story, it happened in China, the records were in Chinese, there should not be any translation issue.

 

The confusion may be like this.  The teacher showed a flower.  Only one student smiled, indicating he knew the genuine meaning.  Is it communication?  non-verbal?  psychic?    To me, this kind of scenario happens all the time to normal people.  It is just they are prominent Buddhist teachers.

 

I have read that direct transmission occur between student and future teacher, in Hinduism.  But that was a calling (brief) than a course or a set of instructions.  Taoists don't have that between people (anyhow masters live with their students).  It might happen between Immortals to humans.

 

One interesting thing is the earlier part of the sentence, 教外別傳 (preaching outside of the religion).  This phrase is mentioned in many Taoist books.  I think its meaning is Buddhist using Taoist system to achieve their goals.

 

 

 

[Taoist Texts]

8 minutes ago, Master Logray said:

The confusion may be like this.  The teacher showed a flower.  Only one student smiled, indicating he knew the genuine meaning.  Is it communication?  non-verbal?  psychic?

depends on what the flower means;)

9 minutes ago, Master Logray said:

One interesting thing is the earlier part of the sentence, 教外別傳 (preaching outside of the religion).  This phrase is mentioned in many Taoist books

thats true

Quote

 

 the four-fold phrasing that came to be used in Song dynasty China to characterize Chan distinctiveness:

a special transmission outside the scriptures (jiaowai biechuan, 教外別傳); not established upon words and letters (buli wenzi, 不立文字); directly pointing to the human heartmind (zhizhi renxin, 直指人心); seeing nature and becoming a Buddha (jianxing chengfo, 見性成佛).

https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/buddhism-chan/

 

 

教外別傳 simply means that it is a new kind of individual-cultivation budddhism as opposed to old congregation-cultivation budddhism

[Antares]

8 minutes ago, snowymountains said:

In Zen I'm not aware of any teacher who perceives direct transmission as a method to do "data transfer", it's more about sharing a mental state

This seems to be very similar to northern daoist schools methods. At first they try to recognize the nature of Xing (or in other words to recover it or to obtain yuan shen) but they do it by loosing their life essence. So you should be aware of this danger. Qigong methods won't help to restore it. There are many traps on this path

[snowymountains]

14 minutes ago, Antares said:

This seems to be very similar to northern daoist schools methods. At first they try to recognize the nature of Xing (or in other words to recover it or to obtain yuan shen) but they do it by loosing their life essence. So you should be aware of this danger. Qigong methods won't help to restore it. There are many traps on this path

 

I don't know anything about the northern daoist schools nor do I know if this has any impact on their life essence, as I am not a teacher and haven't experienced that side of it.

 

Still, it sounds that any hypothetical negative impact is only for the teacher, correct ?

This seems at odds with that a lot of these Roshis die at a very late age, teach till a very late age, and seem happy and lively they don't seem like they are depleted from the teacher-student interviews.

 

If something like that does occur ( which I cannot confirm or deny), they probably know about it and know what to do about it.

 

[Antares]

2 minutes ago, snowymountains said:

Still, it sounds that any hypothetical negative impact is only for the teacher, correct ?

This seems at odds with that a lot of these Roshis die at a very late age

But eventually they die. The loss of life essence can be compensated by their virtue -- healthy lifestyle and so on. The downside comes from long seated meds so it depends how long they do it and also they could have some methods to compensate the loss of life essence, I don't know their approach well to comment it. The most important thing is what they reached on the path of enlightenment 

[snowymountains]

1 hour ago, Master Logray said:

I have googled this line.  All sources say the direct pointing is self pointing.  A Buddhist doesn't have to follow the system, but can directly refer to one's own heart/Buddha nature.

 

 There is no implication of psychic transmission of information, no sync between 2 persons.  It is a solo internal matter.   From the story, it happened in China, the records were in Chinese, there should not be any translation issue.

 

The confusion may be like this.  The teacher showed a flower.  Only one student smiled, indicating he knew the genuine meaning.  Is it communication?  non-verbal?  psychic?    To me, this kind of scenario happens all the time to normal people.  It is just they are prominent Buddhist teachers.

 

In Zen there is direct pointing in the context of teacher-student interview, it's a teaching method. It's not the solo direct pointing, it's also not about non-verbal transmission of information either.

 

You can look e.g. at Hidden Zen (terebess.hu) see chapter "Selected Practices of Direct Pointing for Zen Teachers", or simply join a Zen dojo and see it in practice.

Edited January 14 by snowymountains