Daoist meditation: water and fire methods

[snowymountains]

I was looking into Taoist meditations, not the meditations per se, but rather classifications of the meditations, more like an index page to see how they compare to meditative traditions I'm already familiar with.

According to Bruce Francis there are Water and Fire meditation methods, he's also written some books on the water methods.

 

He hasn't published anything on the fire methods, so what are they, a Daoist version of Tummo ? energy going up does have a Tummo-like flavor to it.

Tummo uses a 5-chakra system, central channel + 2 side channels, at least in its Tibetan version.

If Tummo-ish, In Daoist fire methods, I assume this picture is thrown out of the window and instead a TCM model is used ?

 

Are Francis' books on the water methods good? as in are the instructions on the book sufficient to practice the meditations ?

Also, are they real/traditional meditations transmitted from a Taoist lineage ( as opposed to being eg inspired by original lineage practices ) ?

Edited January 10 by snowymountains

[ChiDragon]

The function of the human body is always the same. Do you think by changing the name of meditation would change how the body function?

Edited January 10 by ChiDragon

[salaam123]

--

Edited January 10 by salaam123

[snowymountains]

30 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

The function of the human body is always the same. Do you think by changing the name of meditation would change how the body function?

 

Are you referring to Tummo? First of all are fire methods Tummo? I can't know without knowing what fire methods are about.

 

If so and your question is for tummo, the Tibetan 5 chakras, the central channel and the two side channels are not anatomical parts of the human body.

They are a mental model instead, and I would assume that Daoism the underlying mental model would be different, but I don't know what the Daoist techniques look like, hence my question.

[ChiDragon]

27 minutes ago, snowymountains said:

 

Are you referring to Tummo? First of all are fire methods Tummo? I can't know without knowing what fire methods are about.

 

If so and your question is for tummo, the Tibetan 5 chakras, the central channel and the two side channels are not anatomical parts of the human body.

They are a mental model instead, and I would assume that Daoism the underlying mental model would be different, but I don't know what the Daoist techniques look like, hence my question.

 

Yes, you are right. Models do not represent the physical human body but they are only imaginary models. They are really meaningless. The human body function the same way biologically unless it was malfunction.

[snowymountains]

7 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

 

Yes, you are right. Models do not represent the physical human body but they are only imaginary models. They are really meaningless. The human body function the same way biologically unless it was malfunction.

 

The Tibetan model could be of only psychological significance as Jung believed ( for a variant of the Tibetan with 7 Chakras to be more precise), not anatomical. It could also have anatomical backing, but in either case we just don't know, so we can't make the statement.

The fact that nerves and arteries pass through these points does not mean that they have the attributes the Tibetan system assigns to them.

 

So I take it that fire methods are tummo then? How many fire methods are there, tummo variants are not that many. 

What is the purpose of fire methods in the Daoist arts?

One of the practical reasons tummo was practiced in Tibet probably was the Himalayan temperatures ( not the only reason but I'm excluding metaphysical reasons ), I can't see this reason being as relevant in mainland China.

Edited January 11 by snowymountains

[Dedicated]

I only use tummo sometimes. I see it more like medicine to assist an imbalance. Buddhists teach it to people who have meditated for twenty years. I think I have found a yoga equivalent 

[snowymountains]

13 minutes ago, Dedicated said:

I only use tummo sometimes. I see it more like medicine to assist an imbalance. Buddhists teach it to people who have meditated for twenty years. I think I have found a yoga equivalent 

 

I don't include tummo in my practice tbh, as personally I have no use for it.

 

I'm 100% with Jiddu Krishnamurti on this one, I believe it's nothing more than a physiological response which for some people is ok, for others it may be dangerous, so if one doesn't believe there are benefits to it, there's no reason to practice it.

 

But each to their own, if you find it useful, then you do the right thing for you.

 

In any case, I'm not looking to replace tummo with a Daoist equivalent because I don't practice it.

It's more of "academic" interest that I ask.

 

Eg I'm wondering if the fire methods essentially are equivalent to Tummo (?), if so they probably have significant technical differences, as the underlying mental model is a different one.

 

Ps: imo some practices need to be seriously considered before adopted, tummo may be at the border of this but others ( eg Phowa ) do create specific physiological changes that one needs to carefully consider, as there's no guarantee that they're trivially reversible.

Just because something is part of a tradition, even a great one, doesn't mean that it's necessarily a good thing for everyone to practice. Reading about it academically is of course always harmless.

[snowymountains]

Btw beyond Tummo, how do folks find Francis' books on the water methods?

[Dedicated]

I watched a YouTube video I was recommended from this site about too much chi creating heat. This kind of confirms what you're saying. 

[snowymountains]

6 minutes ago, Dedicated said:

I watched a YouTube video I was recommended from this site about too much chi creating heat. This kind of confirms what you're saying. 

 

Thank you, if you have the video at hand can you share it?

 

On a side note in energetic practices in Zen ( it only has a handful of them tbh ), energy is either gathered in the hara or pulled down to the lower body, so I gather these would probably qualify as water methods in a Daoist classification ( there is one where it's circulated as well, but none where it moves upwards ).

 

In Daoist water meditation methods, what is the end goal, is it something additional to pulling the energy in the lower part of the body?

[Neirong]

23 hours ago, snowymountains said:

According to Bruce Francis there are Water and Fire meditation methods, he's also written some books on the water methods.

 

23 hours ago, snowymountains said:

Are Francis' books on the water methods good? as in are the instructions on the book sufficient to practice the meditations ?

Also, are they real/traditional meditations transmitted from a Taoist lineage ( as opposed to being eg inspired by original lineage practices ) ?

Why would you listen/read something from a guy who does this?
 

 

 

[snowymountains]

6 minutes ago, Neirong said:

 

Why would you listen/read something from a guy who does this?
 

 

 

 

Niiiice 🤣, all questions have been answered then I guess 😁

[Taoist Texts]

On 11.01.2024 at 1:55 AM, snowymountains said:

According to Bruce Francis there are Water and Fire meditation methods, he's also written some books on the water methods.

no, while water and fire are traditional terms, there are no such  'methods'. he or those who duped him made those up

On 11.01.2024 at 1:55 AM, snowymountains said:

Are Francis' books on the water methods good?

no;) 

On 11.01.2024 at 1:55 AM, snowymountains said:

as in are the instructions on the book sufficient to practice the meditations ?

sure why not. the question is what good will come out of it. 

On 11.01.2024 at 1:55 AM, snowymountains said:

Also, are they real/traditional meditations transmitted from a Taoist lineage ( as opposed to being eg inspired by original lineage practices ) ?

no there is no lineage there except a sham one

[snowymountains]

1 hour ago, Taoist Texts said:

no, while water and fire are traditional terms, there are no such  'methods'. he or those who duped him made those up

no;) 

sure why not. the question is what good will come out of it. 

no there is no lineage there except a sham one

 

I see, is the general quality of marketable products and courses at this level for Daoism ? The little bit of Googling I've done indicates so.

I wonder, why don't state-recognized temples have a system that allows transparency, like a "who's who" that someone can enquire.

 

E.g. in Zen if someone says they're a Roshi, I would ask them what is their lineage and teacher, then contact the headquarters of that lineage to ask if they received Dharma transmission there. It's straightforward to find out if a teacher is genuine.

Of course having received Dharma transmission doesn't necessarily meant they're the right teacher nor even committed practitioners themselves but at least it's a known that they've had plenty of formal training and experience in the stuff they teach.

 

In Daoism arts I see of that X wrote that book etc, but nowhere do I see any verifiable chain of proof of who is X and where did they learn the techniques from.

[Taoist Texts]

1 hour ago, snowymountains said:

I wonder, why don't state-recognized temples have a system that allows transparency, like a "who's who" that someone can enquire.

because they do not want to share their status and profits with those who they  endorse, so they do not endorse anyone. besides the temples are recognized only in China  

1 hour ago, snowymountains said:

In Daoism arts I see of that X wrote that book etc, but nowhere do I see any verifiable chain of proof of who is X and where did they learn the techniques from.

how about looking at his results

[Barnaby]

2 hours ago, snowymountains said:

In Daoism arts I see of that X wrote that book etc, but nowhere do I see any verifiable chain of proof of who is X and where did they learn the techniques from.

 

You just achieved enlightenment 

[Master Logray]

1 hour ago, snowymountains said:

 

I wonder, why don't state-recognized temples have a system that allows transparency, like a "who's who" that someone can enquire.

 

 

 

Taoism is traditionally different from Buddhism in China.  Buddhists (priests/students) mostly live in monasteries.  Most of the Taoist buildings are temples but not monasteries.  Temples are service centres and lodgings for gods, with a few persons only.  It is not unlikely Catholics in the west, church building is not the church.   The majority of Taoist clergies are ZhengYi, they allow marriage like Protestant.  They mostly live at home or wander from town to town.   What you read about Taoism in the west are QuanZhen but not ZhengYi. 

 

Stated recognized temples are often tourist and cultural facilities.  And very often run by non-Taoist outsiders (in Taoist attire).

 

Taoist lineages do have a "certificate", which is to show their identity and allow free lodging in other temples out of town.  The Taoist association does have a list of the main active temples all over the country, but there are just too many outside the system.

 

 

 

[snowymountains]

1 hour ago, Taoist Texts said:

how about looking at his results

 

The results are not always easily measurable,

To break it down to 3 typical categories,

 

a) If there is a structured curriculum and the textual references are clear - then in my experience it's easy to recognise a star teacher who teaches excellently their tradition.

 

b ) If the curriculum is unstructured ( different per teacher ) but the textual references are clear - then in my experience it's possible to recognise a star teacher, though it may take a bit more time ( again defining as star someone who teaches excellently their tradition).

 

c) If the curriculum is unstructured and at the same time textual references are not clear - then in my experience it can take a bit of time to recognise a good teacher or leave an incompetent one.

 

by far the hardest to see if the teacher is the right one is c).

 

 As the only signal to watch for is to wait for the long term impact of the meditations taught, especially if it's about types of meditations that offer only long term benefits.

 This clearly depends on the type of meditation, a calm abiding meditation can be judged almost right after the meditation but others may need a long time frame.

 

 So my takeaway is that the best route to follow is to work with a teacher who focuses on techniques which work short/medium term and judge the direct impact.

 

 The long-term ones better to leave aside as there's no way to verify what you're getting taught for a long period of time and without proper lineage verification there's just no way to know beforehand if the teacher is showing the "real thing".

Edited January 12 by snowymountains

[snowymountains]

51 minutes ago, Master Logray said:

 

 

Taoist lineages do have a "certificate", which is to show their identity and allow free lodging in other temples out of town.  The Taoist association does have a list of the main active temples all over the country, but there are just too many outside the system.

 

 

 

 

Then it's possible to find those who studied in an active temple and also received permission to teach ? What's the process for doing this?

[Taoist Texts]

1 hour ago, snowymountains said:

The results are not always easily measurable,

are they even nameable?

1 hour ago, snowymountains said:

there's just no way to know beforehand if the teacher is showing the "real thing".

of course no way if we keep a taboo on naming the real thing . how can we know if there is something if we are too scared to say its name;) does the real thing have a name?

[Master Logray]

1 hour ago, snowymountains said:

 

Then it's possible to find those who studied in an active temple and also received permission to teach ? What's the process for doing this?

 

e.g. this Spanish guy in China, WuDang Mountain  https://www.instagram.com/wudangzixiao/     https://www.wudangzixiao.com/español/zi-xiao/

 

But rare.

 

 

[snowymountains]

52 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

are they even nameable?

 

They are but they need context.

 

To give one example sitting in various forms of "open awareness" ( to use non-sectarian terminology), which is not entry level practice, has mostly long term results. It's not like a eg meditation on breath where impact is immediate (calming).

 

How to measure them is specific to each tradition, the names and tracking flagpoles differ between traditions.

Eg in Zen the realisations that come with time from the practice are described by Torei and others can be used as flagpoles. Progress in Koan practice is also used as a progression-meter. The verifier is usually a Roshi, someone who has received Dharma transmission.

Of course it's not impossible for a solo practitioner to have progression too but that would be unverifiable.

 

I'm aware other paths, eg Dzogchen , have their own names and flagpoles etc from discussions with practitioners of these, it's difficult to compare on 1-1 basis.

 

Of course open awareness is just an example.

 

Perhaps long term therapy is another example of something giving long term benefits.

 

I assume that Daoist arts that work with energy have long term practices and each lineage there has its own means of tracking progress on energy work etc.

 

The issue I see without lineage verification is that it's easier for someone to be wasting their time for a long time before figuring out so.

Edited January 12 by snowymountains

[snowymountains]

39 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

of course no way if we keep a taboo on naming the real thing . how can we know if there is something if we are too scared to say its name;) does the real thing have a name?

 

If the teacher promises to teach a lineage's curriculum it must have something, it's practitioners called it somehow, if anything "X lineage practices"

 

Regarding the outcome which the lineage's teaching promise, that's a different discussion, one needs to do trial and error on that.

 

Ultimately I'm not arguing whether all practices deliver as promised, but whether advertised practices are taught as advertised.

[Barnaby]

24 minutes ago, snowymountains said:

If the teacher promises to teach a lineage's curriculum it must have something, it's practitioners called it somehow, if anything "X lineage practices"

This is the whole point.

 

The self-styled daoist teachers of whom I am aware are operating outside all lineage structure, such as it is understood in other traditions.

 

It’s the Wild West. You can basically teach whatever you want.