Daoist meditation: water and fire methods

[Maddie]

15 minutes ago, snowymountains said:

 

Samatha predates Buddhism!, the Buddha learnt Samatha from his teachers.

The Buddha's own great addition to the meditation arsenal was insight meditation, which has a lot of similarities with what is taught in western mindfulness courses.

 

Yes that is a good point. 

[Maddie]

20 minutes ago, snowymountains said:

 

Actually one of the worst reasons to practice Samatha is to calm and ignore what's coming to the surface during everyday life.

 

If there are family problems one should work on the relationship, or if that doesn't solve things, leave the relationship.

Otherwise people will do Samatha to ignore it and because of dealing with it by doing Samatha, they ( and perhaps their children too ) will be stuck in dysfunctional family patterns for decades.

 

When I first began to meditate I was in a really bad relationship and this is precisely why I started meditating. The notion of leaving the toxic relationship didn't enter my mind at first. I wanted to somehow feel ok in the toxic relationship. Happily though once I began to shift to mindfulness I began to realize important things about this mindset.  

[ChiDragon]

26 minutes ago, snowymountains said:

 

1) boxed breathing ( 2-3 mins, not a lot ), to calm the nervous system.

I am new to the term. What is a boxed breathing?

[Maddie]

6 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

I am new to the term. What is a boxed breathing?

 

Four steps.

 

1. breath in for 4 seconds

2. hold for 4 seconds 

3. exhale for 4 seconds

4. hold for 4 seconds.

 

A box :-)

 

* I don't think it has to be 4 seconds, but you do the same count for each "side" of the box.

Edited January 12 by Maddie

[snowymountains]

8 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

A person who stepped into a Buddhist temple to become a Buddhist, that person will be out of this world and leave the problems behind regardless of the consequences. I am only speaking within the Chinese society who has this kind of problems.

 

To be more clear on what I meant. I was not referring to leaving problems behind during meditation.

 

I was referring to using meditation everyday as means to suppress all the problems we get from everyday life, like relationship problems, instead of working on them.

 

The work we need to do to solve these problems is much deeper than Samatha practice.

We need to change our automatic reactions, which is something very difficult, the task is to reprogram our nervous system.

We need to negotiate and find constructive ways to express our emotions to others, including our emotions of frustration, because we shouldn't suppress our emotions.

 

If Samatha is used as a means to avoid doing all this work on ourselves and on our relationships then Samatha is a problematic treatment of our everyday reality.

 

If we do that work and also we do Samatha to calm, then Samatha is a-ok !

 

[snowymountains]

5 minutes ago, Maddie said:

 

When I first began to meditate I was in a really bad relationship and this is precisely why I started meditating. The notion of leaving the toxic relationship didn't enter my mind at first. I wanted to somehow feel ok in the toxic relationship. Happily though once I began to shift to mindfulness I began to realize important things about this mindset.  

 

Then you connected with your emotions and listened to them, you didn't just calm them everyday to avoid dealing with the everyday life situation, that's the exact opposite of what @ChiDragon described sometimes people are doing.

[Maddie]

Just now, snowymountains said:

 

Then you connected with your emotions and listened to them, you didn't just calm them everyday to avoid dealing with the everyday life situation, that's the exact opposite of what @ChiDragon described sometimes people are doing.

 

But people do, do this for sure. 

[ChiDragon]

17 minutes ago, Maddie said:

 

When I first began to meditate I was in a really bad relationship and this is precisely why I started meditating. The notion of leaving the toxic relationship didn't enter my mind at first. I wanted to somehow feel ok in the toxic relationship. Happily though once I began to shift to mindfulness I began to realize important things about this mindset.  

I would considered that is an enlightenment for you acquired from the meditation.

[snowymountains]

14 minutes ago, Maddie said:

 

But people do, do this for sure. 

 

Yes but that's not the same as Samatha to calm and then next day again, and again, and again.

You listened to your emotions, you processed what your body was telling you and did something in the real world addressing the cause.

Even the meditation you did was different, it was an awareness one, not a calming one.

 

The Samatha over and over type of solution is like someone having a toothache and instead of dealing with it medically, they keep taking paracetamol every day. You extracted the bad tooth, that's the difference.

Edited January 12 by snowymountains

[Maddie]

1 minute ago, ChiDragon said:

I would considered that is an enlightenment for you acquired from the meditation.

 

Not really the definition of enlightenment according to the Buddha, but it was a break thought for me on one level :-)

[snowymountains]

2 minutes ago, Maddie said:

 

Not really the definition of enlightenment according to the Buddha, but it was a break thought for me on one level :-)

 

The Buddha, for all the admirable things he's said and done, also didn't stay home to raise his child.

I guarantee you that spending some years changing diapers would had made the Pali Canon a few volumes thinner 😁

 

You dealt well with a real life situation, does it matter if this is the Buddhas definition of enlightenment?

"If you see the Buddha, kill the Buddha" - master Linji/Rinzai

[ChiDragon]

29 minutes ago, Maddie said:

 

Not really the definition of enlightenment according to the Buddha, but it was a break thought for me on one level :-)

I was talking about these kind of enlightenment
7 stages are typically described as:

• Mindfulness and awareness.
• Tranquility and concentration.
• Insight and understanding.
• Spiritual awakening.
• Non-attachment.
• The path to liberation.
• The state of nirvana or enlightenment.
  
  @Maddie This is your definition in Indian Buddhism.
  "bodhi": knowledge, wisdom, wakeful intellect, or awakened divinity of a Buddha. In Buddhism, enlightenment (called bodhi in Indian Buddhism, or satori in Zen Buddhism) is when a Buddhist finds the truth about life and stops being reborn because they have reached Nirvana.
  
  My definition is in Zen Buddhism. Zen Buddhism is not just about finds the truth about life and stops being reborn.

 

 

 

Edited January 12 by ChiDragon

[snowymountains]

12 hours ago, Maddie said:

 

Four steps.

 

1. breath in for 4 seconds

2. hold for 4 seconds 

3. exhale for 4 seconds

4. hold for 4 seconds.

 

A box :-)

 

* I don't think it has to be 4 seconds, but you do the same count for each "side" of the box.

 

In general the sides of the box have the same dimensions, i.e. when it is used to calm the nervous system as a pre-step for meditation.

 

However it can also be used slightly differently as a stress reduction technique, by extending the exhalation part by a tiny bit.

Retaining CO2 a tiny bit more, helps us exit "fight or flight" mode - this twist though is only for when we feel stressed and extension of exhalation is merely marginal !

Edited January 13 by snowymountains

[Master Logray]

19 hours ago, Neirong said:

The problem lies in the perspective; a kindergarten teacher won't be able to prepare you for what comes next, as he does not know the path himself. It is possible to waste 15-30 years of life practicing various things. When you come across higher-level teachings, you realize that you are lacking and have to start from the very beginning, unlearning and relearning basics.

 

 

Is it a problem in the west?  I suppose you guys just move on when a course is finished.  In the east, even for today, it would be more difficult to look for another teacher as it creates ill-feelings.   But somehow 100 years ago, the masters and prominent seekers all receive tutelage from more than 1 source.  Don't know how they did it.

 

 

19 hours ago, Neirong said:

That is why Hierarchy exists in esoteric circles and is necessary. For "Einstein" teaching kindergarten kids would be a waste of his time and potential that could be used more wisely elsewhere.

 

 

Indeed if it is an Order or School or monastery, when there is Sifu, Si Uncle, Si Grand Father/Uncle around.   Yet there are many independent teachers, who only have a few students.  As you say, it is a wastage.  But the greater problem is the art may perish when the students could not pick up the teachings or left.   This type of situation is not uncommon.  In this forum, there was a school whose master passed away, the students are left behind. 

 

For internal martial arts, I would say observing the level and characters of the students is the best way to determine if a teacher is worthy (the end product is good).   It proves the teacher has real knowledge and he is able to teach.  Without both criteria, this teacher is of limited in value.   Yet this method is difficult for cultivation, when the level is not obvious and genuine Taoist masters are expected to be low profile or even deny they have the knowledge.

 

 

 

 

[Neirong]

5 hours ago, Master Logray said:

But the greater problem is the art may perish when the students could not pick up the teachings or left.   This type of situation is not uncommon.  In this forum, there was a school whose master passed away, the students are left behind. 

Things come and go; on this planet, 99.9% of species that once lived no longer exist. It is a normal tide of events; I would not pity lost and deceased teachings, as that also means masters of those teachings were not capable or skilled enough to preserve the essence and core of the knowledge. Some may think they are smart to keep secrets for long time, then they find out they have limited lifespan, and no time to pass it.

There is a reason why so many esoteric teachings focus on immortality: death is a test of dedication and commitment. It is an examination. You can develop a strong body and wonderful siddhis, but where will you be in 100 or 200 years? A pile of ash.
 

The natural passage of time divides rubbish from gems. Some people progress through their classes, while others keep retaking the same lesson over and over again.

 

5 hours ago, Master Logray said:

For internal martial arts,

They will most likely cease to exist, as there is a lack of practicality, usability, and any real benefit from practices. Some reports tell about a 90% drop in people practicing IMA over just the last 20 years. What will happen in next 60 years? There is just no meaningful reason to practice it in the modern world.
 

6 hours ago, Master Logray said:

Is it a problem in the west?  I suppose you guys just move on when a course is finished.  In the east, even for today, it would be more difficult to look for another teacher as it creates ill-feelings.   But somehow 100 years ago, the masters and prominent seekers all receive tutelage from more than 1 source.  Don't know how they did it.

Cultivators develop an attachment to cultivation, not to personalities. It is sensible to move teachers/schools when you reach the limit of what they can teach.
 

As far as courses go, it is not so easy. You may go through a postgraduate study course, complete it, and decide to look around for other classes. But all you see around are people drawing carrots and pineapples and counting them together. Then they believe that if they draw smile emojis on paper, the universe will smile back at them, and they will ascend to the golden body 5D world.
 

I have been to a massive bookshop in a major city a few years ago and browsed over a hundred of "esoteric" and "spiritual" books, and that is the kind of teachings you can find there.

[Dedicated]

On 11/01/2024 at 10:49 PM, snowymountains said:

Thank you, if you have the video at hand can you share it?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YVB4nWi_8w0&pp=ygUSRGFtbyBtaXRjaGVsbCBoZWF0

[Vajra Fist]

On 12/01/2024 at 9:18 PM, Maddie said:

 

This reminds me of when I first wanted to learn meditation. Every where I went I was always told to do Samatha type meditation of focusing on the breath and "making the mind quiet" This did not work for me. What I would notice is that I would do this for just a little while and all kinds of things would come to the surface, to which I was advised to just ignore. This seemed like odd advice since I had been led to believe that the point of meditation was to know one's mind better. To ignore what was coming to the surface seemed like suppression which seemed to be the opposite of the goal of meditation.

   Later I learned about mindfulness meditation where the goal was to observe what was in the mind. I have made much better progress with this type of meditation and it is the one that I specialize in now. 

 

There's a type of vipassana practice from Mahasi Sayadaw called 'noting' which works like this.

 

Modern practitioners include Daniel Ingram and Yutadhammo Bhikku. Some people have experienced some serious breakthroughs in this practice, advancing very quickly. I was on a discord channel run by students of the latter teacher and was quite impressed at their stories.

 

Personally I prefer the more gentle samatha-vipassana approach of Thanissaro Bhikku, of being aware of the breath in different areas of the body. Insight arises naturally, you notice the correspondence between somatic experience and thought. 

[Maddie]

2 hours ago, Vajra Fist said:

 

There's a type of vipassana practice from Mahasi Sayadaw called 'noting' which works like this.

 

Modern practitioners include Daniel Ingram and Yutadhammo Bhikku. Some people have experienced some serious breakthroughs in this practice, advancing very quickly. I was on a discord channel run by students of the latter teacher and was quite impressed at their stories.

 

Personally I prefer the more gentle samatha-vipassana approach of Thanissaro Bhikku, of being aware of the breath in different areas of the body. Insight arises naturally, you notice the correspondence between somatic experience and thought. 

 

This is actually the method that I use LOL.