Immortality through Philosophy

[Cadcam]

I wasn't thinking of immortality of the body, but of this life, this mind, this knowledge, this experience. 

 

I believe in souls as a genesis of consciousness, and I wonder if we grow into them, and at what age they appear in the mind. 

 

I'm certain that we are imbued with souls, as per my experience, but I wonder how this person I am today will survive after death. 

[snowymountains]

8 minutes ago, old3bob said:

 

 partly agreed imo,  and I'll say next is not a match in analogy but there is that saying about dropping ones raft after crossing a river, problem is that its unwise to drop the raft (or trustworthy teacher) in the middle of the river.

 

It's still important to evaluate everything critically, it's what the Buddha himself suggested after all.

 

E.g. the Buddha also spoke about earthquakes, if we take the Pali Canon at face value. What he said is not in line with tectonic plate theory.

He also used a 4/5 element system to examine meditatively the human body.

 

One could take these literally and believe what's the Pali instead of tectonic plate theory and believe Ayuverda's view of matter instead of the periodic table.

 

One could take a different view and interpret it as Buddha using the knowledge of his era e.g. to help people not associate with the body.

[snowymountains]

14 minutes ago, Cadcam said:

I'm certain that we are imbued with souls, as per my experience, but I wonder how this person I am today will survive after death. 

 

Define soul

Also, define we are imbued with souls, what is imbued with soul, our body?

Jung believed the opposite btw, that the body is embedded in the Psyche, I don't claim to fully understand why but he must have had his reasons.

 

Why would it survive after death? Also if something persists after death, then it no longer has access to 5 senses, what does it mean to survive in that context?

What part of you would survive without accessing the 5 senses and how does that part relate to who you define you are today?

 

It also makes a difference to approach the above philosophically vs experientially

 

Also I don't believe anyone has a definite answer to these things, no tradition, no person, nobody.

Edited January 14 by snowymountains

[Maddie]

24 minutes ago, Cadcam said:

I believe in souls as a genesis of consciousness, and I wonder if we grow into them, and at what age they appear in the mind. 

 

I'm certain that we are imbued with souls, as per my experience, but I wonder how this person I am today will survive after death. 

 

Something that I've wanted to ask someone that believes in the soul for a while now is, what causes you to believe that there is a soul behind consciousness as opposed to consciousness being a function of the mind. Or maybe to phrase it a different way, why do you think the soul/consciousness is a "thing" as opposed to a function? 

[Apotheose]

24 minutes ago, Cadcam said:

I wasn't thinking of immortality of the body, but of this life, this mind, this knowledge, this experience. 

 

I believe in souls as a genesis of consciousness, and I wonder if we grow into them, and at what age they appear in the mind. 

 

I'm certain that we are imbued with souls, as per my experience, but I wonder how this person I am today will survive after death. 

In my speculative view, the Self remains after the transition (death). However, the Ego (body and mind) dissolves. The body literally dissolves in soil, and the mind ceases to exist as there is no human thinking anymore (no human values nor even brain synapses to think).

 

Personally, I believe children tend to be more more grounded to/with the soul, and then starts losing its expression as the person begins to develop a materialistic mind.

[Maddie]

Just now, Apotheose said:

In my speculative view, the Self remains after the transition (death). However, the Ego (body and mind) dissolves. The body literally dissolves in soil, and the mind ceases to exist as there is no human thinking anymore (no human values nor even brain synapses to think).

 

Personally, I believe children tend to be more more grounded to/with the soul, and then starts losing its expression as the person begins to develop a materialistic mind.

 

How would you define the "self" and how would you distinguish it from the "ego"? Also what causes you to think that the "self" survives death?

[Apotheose]

16 minutes ago, Maddie said:

 

How would you define the "self" and how would you distinguish it from the "ego"? Also what causes you to think that the "self" survives death?

It’s honestly hard to answer even in my own personal perspective. Anything purely spiritual cannot be explianed by rationality, as it is not based on evidence.

 

I consider the Self as the Pure Counsciouness. The Ego is what the person “learns to be” in life (introvert, extrovert, happy, sad…). By the way, I reckon that C. Jung thought that as well, but I’m really not sure.

 

The soul might be the connection between the Self and the Divine. It’s hard… i don’t know 

 

Who knows? 
 

What’s your take on that?

Edited January 14 by Apotheose

[snowymountains]

1 minute ago, Apotheose said:

It’s honestly hard to answer even in my own personal perspective. Anything purely spiritual cannot be explianed by rationality, as it is not based on evidence.

 

I consider the Self as the Pure Counsciouness. The Ego is what the person “learns to be” in life (introvert, extrovert, happy, sad…). By the way, I reckon that C. Jung thought that as well, but I’m really not sure.

 

The soul might be the connection between the Self and the Divine. It’s hard… i don’t know 

 

Who knows? 

 

Then who knows what survives after death, if anything survives in the first place.

 

We can do all sorts of mental gymnastics to convince ourselves we know but we can't know what we haven't experienced.

After we experience death, we can't sent an email to let others know how it is. So nobody else can tell us either.

 

So if we can't know and nobody can't tell us, it means we can't answer it 😉

[Maddie]

6 minutes ago, Apotheose said:

It’s honestly hard to answer even in my own personal perspective. Anything purely spiritual cannot be explianed by rationality, as it is not based on evidence.
 

What’s your take on that?

 

Then why do you believe it?

 

Edited January 14 by Maddie

[Maddie]

8 minutes ago, Apotheose said:

What’s your take on that?

 

I try to only think something is true if a reason can be shown to demonstrate that it is true. 

[Apotheose]

3 minutes ago, snowymountains said:

 

Then who knows what survives after death, if anything survives in the first place.

 

We can do all sorts of mental gymnastics to convince ourselves we know but we can't know what we haven't experienced.

After we experience death, we can't sent an email to let others know how it is. So nobody else can tell us either.

 

So if we can't know and nobody can't tell us, it means we can't answer it 😉

Exactly, everything gets speculative whether we like it or not.

[Apotheose]

5 minutes ago, Maddie said:

 

Then why do you believe it?

 

I believe it because I cannot prove it. And because I feel great believing it.

[snowymountains]

2 minutes ago, Apotheose said:

Exactly, everything gets speculative whether we like it or not.

 

A quote I like

“Death is nothing to us. When we exist, death is not; and when death exists, we are not. All sensation and consciousness ends with death and therefore in death there is neither pleasure nor pain. The fear of death arises from the belief that in death, there is awareness.” ― Epicurus

 

One of the upsides of not believing in Bardos I guess😁 

[Maddie]

1 minute ago, Apotheose said:

I believe it because I cannot prove it. And because I feel great believing it.

 

Do you believe cookies are made in a tree by elves? I just ask because if no reason is necessary for you to believe something then you can believe any and everything and when we believe everything is real even if there is no reason to do so there is a word for that which I will not say here because apparently it triggers people on this site. 

[Maddie]

2 minutes ago, snowymountains said:

 

A quote I like

“Death is nothing to us. When we exist, death is not; and when death exists, we are not. All sensation and consciousness ends with death and therefore in death there is neither pleasure nor pain. The fear of death arises from the belief that in death, there is awareness.” ― Epicurus

 

One of the upsides of not believing in Bardos I guess😁 

 

oooooooooo I like this!!!!

[old3bob]

Have not looked it in scripture yet but here is something:  (fyi  i'm not a Buddhist but have studied some of it)

 

Paraphrasing Zen Priest Kobutsu Shindo, the first thing the Buddha said when he awakened was, “Wonder of wonders, all beings are truly enlightened.”

 

when death dies then sorrow and doubt also dies...

[Apotheose]

13 minutes ago, Maddie said:

 

Do you believe cookies are made in a tree by elves? I just ask because if no reason is necessary for you to believe something then you can believe any and everything and when we believe everything is real even if there is no reason to do so there is a word for that which I will not say here because apparently it triggers people on this site. 

In my view, believing is ‘not knowing’, that’s why it is called “belief”.
I know the ‘Oneness’. However, I believe in reincarnation, I believe in souls, I believe in angels, I believe the sephiroth.

 

But I can’t really give you anything more than that. It’s totally subjective, as it is based in one’s whole life of studying and thinking. But, to be honest, I truly wanted to be able to answer rationally your questions.

[Maddie]

Just now, Apotheose said:

In my view, believing is ‘not knowing’, that’s why it is called “belief”.
I know the ‘Oneness’. However, I believe in reincarnation, I believe in souls, I believe in angels, I believe the sephiroth.

 

But I can’t really give you anything more than that. It’s totally subjective, as it is based in one’s whole life of studying and thinking. But, to be honest, I truly wanted to be able to answer rationally your questions.

 

I get that. Belief and knowing are two different things, but I want at the very least to try to the best of my ability to make sure that my beliefs are at least well founded. For example I believe that Joe Biden is the president of the United States and lives in the White House. I've never actually met him nor have I been to the White House so I guess it technically could all be a giant conspiracy and in reality and alien lizard from Mars runs the country but I believe he's the president and he lives in the White House and I feel like I have good reason to do so even though I can't necessarily prove it. I at least feel like it's a well-founded belief.

[blue eyed snake]

57 minutes ago, Maddie said:

 

Something that I've wanted to ask someone that believes in the soul for a while now is, what causes you to believe that there is a soul behind consciousness as opposed to consciousness being a function of the mind. Or maybe to phrase it a different way, why do you think the soul/consciousness is a "thing" as opposed to a function? 

 

May I turn that question around?

What causes you to believe that consciousness is a function of the mind? Or to phrase it a bit different, why do you think the soul/consciousness is a function of the mind as opposed to a independent entity? 

[Maddie]

12 minutes ago, blue eyed snake said:

 

May I turn that question around?

What causes you to believe that consciousness is a function of the mind? Or to phrase it a bit different, why do you think the soul/consciousness is a function of the mind as opposed to a independent entity? 

 

Because the way the five senses work. We become aware of conscious of something when our senses make contact with an object and register that impression in the brain. That's proven neuroscience. That's why I believe that.

  What I haven't seen in the evidence of however is we believe in some non-coporeal consciousness that exists separate and independently of the brain.

Edited January 14 by Maddie

[blue eyed snake]

Not so sure neuroscience has proven that,

but apart from neuroscience, most people believe that consciousness is a function of the brain because it's the paradigm we grow up in.

 

Regarding evidence, you could maybe read some books about near death experiences, and/or about kids with memories of former lives that turned out to be amazingly to the point.

 

Just to wiggle the paradigm a bit so to say, its interesting stuff.

[Apotheose]

9 minutes ago, Maddie said:

 

Because the way the five senses work. We become aware of conscious of something when our senses make contact with an object and register that impression in the brain. That's proven neuroscience. That's why I believe that.

  What I haven't seen in the evidence of however is we believe in some non-coporeal consciousness that exists separate and independently of the brain.

This is a wonderful discussion, as it -similarly to the spiritual - enters the “uncertainty area”.

 

Not even the mind can be fully understood. Are we thinking inside of our heads? Where exactly is the mind (not the brain) located? What exactly is the voice inside our heads, is it the mind or the counsciousness? Our thoughts derive purely from the mind or is it somewhat related to the counsciousness? The mind is just thoughts or is there anything more to it? Are the 5 senses really capable of percieving everything the way they truly are?

 

I don’t want you to answer these, of course, as there is no answer to them. I’m just pointing out some interesting questions  

[Nungali]

9 hours ago, Cadcam said:

If there is an afterlife, then we would have to be connected somehow to it already, for otherwise, we are merely trapped in our bodies experiencing life individually, and not in some way (other than inhabiting shared space), collectively.

 

I dont feel at all trapped in my body .  The physical body is just one part and range  of our existence  .  There is soooo much to experience 'out there'   beyond our physical body .  Really , it should be  a 'base camp' or  an 'antenna '  .  Maybe if I had no senses or imagination I might feel 'trapped'  in my body . And this feeling is even within my possibility range that there might not be an 'afterlife' .

 

If the afterlife is in us individually, then we would probably lose it should we be burned to ash and not buried.

 

I dont see how that follows at all .   But then the first premise  (your 'if' ) is too vague for me  ;  " If the afterlife is in us individually," - I am not even sure what that means .

 

If we are connected somehow on some field of energy, then we could inhabit a shared soul network, which is perhaps something like a dream state.

 

When we move out of the area of vague supposin'  we find that many viewpoints on the afterlife consider various aspects of 'soul' , both an individual type and another aspect that we all share  - 'network '  ¹ .

 

 

  The only thing to consider there is: how much control of the dream state do we have, and are these states desirable? Certainly we would want a good Heaven to experience eternally? Is it based on our current state of thoughts and deeds?

 

There is a LOT more to consider than that !  However control of the dream state is desirable , but for other reasons .  Are these ( 'dream states'  ? )  desirable ?  That depends on what is going on in there  , even if it is not good / disturbing , it might be desirable if you then do something about that .  Then again is it 'desire' that is motivating  you  and if so, is that a good thing ? or should other forces motivate us 'deeper' than desire ... and what is  driving that desire ?   ( 'driving' as in 'psychological drive' ) .

 

Yes, most of want a 'good' heaven .... I am supposing 'bad heaven' is like ..... like  .....   ..... ummm ... ;

 

Oh no !   It turned out the Christians are right !  ... but then again , how would end up being allowed in ?   

 

The  after death experience you have may well be based on a current state of thoughts ( and deeds, as deeds   can change and 'cement' thoughts )  BUT  many traditions talk of a 'temporary heaven ' or a 'state' where certain things seem to be required to be 'played out ' .  There is also talk of a 2nd or astral death , even a third one .

 

How would we then reincarnate? Do we somehow enter a body of a living person and enter their sperm or egg and get born again? If this is how it happens, then why aren't I aware of my past life? And if I am not aware, does it even matter if it's true? 

 

Maybe a certain 'original approach'  is needed for a specific incarnation experience to play out fully ?  But past experience should not be altogether lost. Part of  'spiritual development '  in some paths  is to access this memory to gain a 'bigger  picture' - the theme across  several incarnations .  Its also related to incarnation purpose or  mission   / 'True Will' /  Khvarenah ² , which often seems to 'get lost' amidst the incarnation 'descent ' .  I put it down to a messed up social system and bad focus on the purpose and meaning of life that the culture and society that one is born into .

 

No, it may not matter if you are unaware of it .  It may not 'matter '    to one  at all .  maybe others can help 'fix you up' and and you can always catch up on your development later ... some people choose to be healers and doctors , some choose to be patients . Its all 'learning expereince '  .... if it gets 'in '  (meaning , if it carries over ... to the afterlife ) , otherwise , perhaps one has to keep doing it over and over and over again , until it does 'sink in' .

 

The only way to ensure control over one's knowledge and self is to be practiced at knowledge of self and life, and not be at the mercy of uncertainty and desires, and in this situation, one could then defend the arts of knowledge and knowing-commanding ones will to do.

 

Agreed .

 

In this case, obtaining the philosophers stone, confessing sin and making atonement, and fixing one's karma would be a highly recommended path.

 

I dont really see the personal import of having the Philosophers Stone , in this regard . I suppose it can have overall benefit on a 'karmic'  level .  In that I mean , if you use it for good works - in my case I have made it many times  ( working within agricultural alchemy )  and its 'spiritual energy' is imparted into food and then people .  I suppose having  this energy within you may help one to access or at at least think about these things ( ie. incarnatory purpose )  and taking a 'proactive stance' about your development , instead of living in ignorance about them .

 

Spoiler

1. In Zoroastrianism, for one example, the 'soul' is the 'Urvan' and it is personal to each person . But each person also has a Fraveshi  - sometimes called the divine spark,

• The fravashi can be thought of as the hand of God in all of creation, or perhaps, the means by which God's plan resides in all of creation.
• While the soul is personal, the fravashi is universal.
• The fravashi gives a person intuitive access to the moral and ethical laws of Asha, and allows a person to gain insights into the nature of  right and wrong  through inspired  introspection.

some see this aspect of soul as a bit of flame of the one fire or  light reflected in the mirror of the heart from the great one light .

 

Some systems see them as combined into one

 

 

2.  " The khvarenah is the archetype of the person one can grow to if allowed to grow to the limit of her or his capacity in grace, that is, in keeping with the fravashi and thereby in keeping with Divine purpose. In the Avesta, the khvarenah is frequently described as 'Mazda-datem', i.e. God-given or God-gifted.

• The khvarenah is also a person's higher calling - their meaning in life [the Middle Persian Pahlavi rending of khvarenah is khvesh-kari meaning own-work or own-purpose (in keeping with Divine purpose i.e. the higher calling)].
• Every human being is endowed with natural talents that can be harnessed and developed to achieve one's highest potential or one's higher calling [sometimes thought of as one's latent destiny in life]. Alternatively, through choice, these talents can be employed to achieve base ambitions.

 

 

[Nungali]

3 hours ago, Maddie said:

I think that perhaps a relevant question to ask before one asks if immortality is possible via this or that method, would be to ask, "is it even possible at all?". Considering we have never witnessed anyone that is immortal, what reason is there to believe this is even possible? 

 

Fear of death ? 

 

 

[Nungali]

2 hours ago, old3bob said:

 

yea, makes one wonder about those very old timers in O.T., were those accounts all just fairy tails?  I don't know.

If I remember correctly several Hunza people have reached 120+ without being in a mystery school.

 

Nah ! 

 

Fairies  dont have tails .