Immortality through Philosophy

[Nungali]

13 hours ago, snowymountains said:

 

I don't know if there's a realisation of the final moment in the sense of measuring time with a clock by an independent observer. The dying observer may not be able to realise that moment.

 

I'm not saying a final moment doesn't exist btw, all I say is I don't know if the dying person becomes aware of such a moment, even if they are aware that they are in the process of dying.

 

If so, and this view is something that if false it's rejectable during death, but if true it can't be rejected even during death by the dying person.

 

If there's no realisation of a final moment, then it's an experience which is not bound by time for the experiencer, in the sense that they cannot perceive an end.

Or to rephrase, if they were doing insight meditation during the dying process, it could be that they may not be able to note the end of the process.

 

If that qualifies for timeless I don't know and ultimately if even during death we may not know , how can we know while we are alive.

 

 

 

I not sure what part of my post you are referring to as the reference is missing ?  (ie empty quote box )  - I am assuming it was the general postulation ; " Would that make any difference to you? "  ... but in relation to that, I am unsure how some of your comments relate to it,  

 

You can do it like this : 

 

SM said ; " If that qualifies for timeless I don't know and ultimately if even during death we may not know , how can we know while we are alive."

 

- sorry about MY messing posting , sometimes the site allows a split post , sometimes not  .

[snowymountains]

40 minutes ago, Nungali said:

 

I not sure what part of my post you are referring to as the reference is missing ?  (ie empty quote box )  - I am assuming it was the general postulation ; " Would that make any difference to you? "  ... but in relation to that, I am unsure how some of your comments relate to it,  

 

You can do it like this : 

 

SM said ; " If that qualifies for timeless I don't know and ultimately if even during death we may not know , how can we know while we are alive."

 

- sorry about MY messing posting , sometimes the site allows a split post , sometimes not  .

 

If I recall correctly I was replying to this 

 

[Nungali]

14 hours ago, Cadcam said:

You say you've had the philosophers stone? I'd love to hear what it is, and how you came to possessing it.

 

Okay. But you are bound to be disappointed .  

 

First ; there are many types of 'alchemy' , most are familiar with 'metallic  alchemy'    and its seems the most popular (  make  gold you say ! ?  )  . Some are familiar with 'spiritual' or 'internal alchemy ' . Some dispute whether this or that form of alchemy is 'true' real or 'original ' alchemy . IMO (and others ) any system can be an alchemical one if it adheres to its principles and stages and gets the required result  (basically , infusing matter with spirit or quintessence so then that matter will imparet spirit to other things that it touches ) .  My field was in 'earth alchemy' for the use in agriculture , or 'agricultural alchemy ' . . For a  while I was 'preparations' maker assistant  and then took on that role for a few months when the maker had time off  and back to assistant when he returned , for BAA - Biodynamic Agriculture Australia .  Most do not realise that BD is an alchemical process , including the people that make it ! 

 

Lets start with 'Prima Materia ' .

 

In alchemy and philosophy, prima materia, materia prima or first matter (for a philosophical exposition refer to: Prime Matter), is the ubiquitous starting material required for the alchemical magnum opus and the creation of the philosopher's stone.

 

(my emphasis )

 

Atalanta fugiens emblems 36 - 40

Epigram 36:

The Stone that is Mercury, is cast upon the
Earth, exalted on Mountains, resides in the
Air, and is nourished in the Waters.

Discourse 36:

... it may be found in the Earth, Mountain, Air and Rivers. Which path therefore must be taken? I say, both, but in a different respect, although the last pleases us best, and seems most safe.

It is said to be thrown upon the Earth, because the Element of Earth does first appear in an obscure and black body. Then, because it is vile and of small price, is trod upon in the path of the Traveller, and in the very dung itself. Hence Rosarius says, " Although I should name it by its Name, the fools would not believe it to be the Thing. " And Morienus, in his answer to Calis,

" Whither is much of it to be found? " " If this: It is not there unless, as the wise man says, it be both to the Poor and Rich, to the Liberal and the Covetous, to him that goeth as well as sitteth. For this is thrown in the way and is trampled on in it's dunghills, ... The last Matter of things putrefied, is most vile; for nothing can be viler than mud or dirt, which yet is nothing else but Earth mixed with Water. What is more common than a Clod of Earth?

... the Stone is said to be cast upon the Earth, ... it passes into the Air, where it finds a habitation. For the Air is its house that encloses it, which is nothing else then that it is carried in the belly of the wind, and is born in the Air, which ways of speaking we have explained before.

At last he is fed in Rivers ...

 

( other descriptions cite things like 'children play with it in the streets ' , commoners use it in their houses , it is everywhere but no one knows its true value ,  etc . The 'cultural / temporal' aspects of the times this written in should be taken into account   when considering what this common and also 'gross' and unclean thing might be . )

 

( as will be shown later here ,  the sections about 'the stone' , which comes from the prima materia ,  will show how the stone is used  by 'dissolving in water , cast into the air and settles on the earth  )

 

Epigram 37:

Three things are sufficient for the Magistery: The White Fume that is Water;
The Green Lion that is the Brass of Hermes; and Aqua Faetida.

 

( later , during the formation of the stone I will talk about these three principles - which are also 'microscopic beings '  ... in earth alchemy )

 

Discourse 37:

... " The Earth is left there that the other three Elements may be rooted in it. For if that were not there, they would have no foundation whereupon they might build a new repository for their Treasures."

This Foundation is here called Aqua Faetida, which is the mother of all Elements, as Rosarius declares, from which, by which, and with which the Philosophers prepare It, that is their Elixir, both in the beginning and in the End.

Their water is called Faetida, because it sends forth a Sulphurous Stink, like that of Sepulchres. ...

This is the water of the Dragon ( as Rosarius calls it ) which ought to be made by an Alembic, without adding any other thing, in the making wherof there is an extraordinary stink. Some persons, misunderstanding these words, have betook themselves to the distillation of the Dung of Man, or other animals, in which operation they perceived a very vehement Stink, but found nothing else but dung in their dung.

 

( this is because the 'dung' was not processed properly )

 

But do not suppose the Philosophers to be Beetles that work in Dunghills, for you must know that the stink, if it be any, is presently changed into a great Fragrancy,

 

( This happens ; after the initial stage , the bad smell dissipates )

 

But he places his Quintessence in Dung, by whose temperate Heat the Fragrancy follows.

 

(I will talk about this 'temperate heat' later )

 

So, in BD it starts with cow dung , ideally  a healthy organic cow in milk , and better . one that has been fed on BD  fields  and feed ... keep the cycle going around , so each cycle you have a 'purer' or more 'infused'  dung .

 

The next step is to enclose the material  in a  sealed 'low heat' 'crucible and 'cook it' in a low temperature 'oven'  in this case the 'crucible' is a cow horn (hollowed out )  sealed with clay  and the 'athanoor' is the earth itself ... that is the filled horn is buried in the earth , at a certain depth for temperature regulation , over winter .  In BD this is called 'preparation 500 '  it and the finished product , in very small amounts (virtually 'homeopathic' )  is 'touched'  upon the earth  (cast upon  the  fields ). It brings ( well, first 'quintessence ' ) fertility of the growth cycle  based on  effects relating to nitrogen .   When it is dug up it can be stored  ( we made large amounts , being the center for Australia ) it should only be in contact with natural and insulating substances , pottery and ceramics are best , it should be kept in clay pots , away from light , ideally in an underground or mud brick  building .

 

I examined the material at stages during this secondary storage process . if the material had not fully developed in the horn , it did later in the storage . It had three types of  different colored 'dots' in it .  These where moving about  and it became apparent they where very tiny 'bugs ' .  Some where white, some black and some a brown color .  I was reminded of this emblem ;

 

I was supposed to be offered a good microscope to examine them, but it was not forthcoming .  However I have examined other soil micro organisms  ( I did soil science at Uni ) ... wow  ! 

 

 

 

 

Its use is by dissolving a small amount in water  ( 'good' or energized water , from a fresh mountain stream or via flow form )  and stirring it the correct way  ( one way until a vortex forms , then quickly the other way until a vortex forms , the idea is to not, as all seem to think , imbue some type of vortex force , but (even Steiner says this  * )  it is the 'smashing 'of the vortex by changing direction and disrupting it that helps the energy go from the matter into the water .... the imprint of the water (memory ) is made 'chaos' so it then  absorbs the imprint of the  spirit in the matter .

 

Then it is spread over the fields  (aside from all the modern fuss with spraying and 'putting out' in modern BD ) simply by dipping a leafy tree branch in the water and sprinkling it about  ( and this also makes it have a phase 'in the air' as it falls) . It is done during the best astrological times and Moon positions and phases for this .

 

The energy is then absorbed by the earth  bringing healthy growth, increased fertility , good NPK balance  in the soil and micro nutrients  and an overall 'glow' to things .  I won't go into the veracity of the reports or criticisms of hard science here , but I did note that an awful lot of 'straight' farmers  used our preparations and conditioners , one's whose livelihood depended on it .  A few asked to keep their identities unknown  for fear of ridicule from neighbors. They also complained about their previous use of commercial fertilizers , the rising costs and the damage they where doing to their farms and waterways .  

 

In these cases ,large scale farming , they put the substances out with large spray rigs , they filter the solution as it otherwise would damage the equipment  (especially with 501 - see  below  - they need very fine screens ) this means that no actual physical substance but water is in the spray , only the 'energy' of  the operation previous ... or spirit .  or 'the gold' if one prefers .

 

501  prima materia is 'rock'   ( and in some alchemical writings it seems very confused, one clarity about that might come from seeing that they are talking about different types of stone or energy   at the same time  ) , specifically, quartz crystal rods . They are smashed up and then ground between plates of glass to a fine dusty powder ( dangerous ! respirator required ) . This is then buried in the cow horns and sealed with clay over summer .  It is sprayed into the atmosphere  to effect the crops , it stimulates the 'archetypal' nature of the plant which is associated with that switch over from growth (nitrogen ) to reproduction (phosphorus  )  during those appropriate  astrological  and Moon phases .

 

and of course between these two ( 'heaven and Earth )  is a moderator ; a cow horn filled with clay , prepared similar .  The basic idea is to get the two forces to meet ; 'heaven comes down to imbue earth and earth rises to embrace heaven '  the descending and ascending triangles interlock forming the hexagram , the clay energy helps hold them together .  On another level , clay holds and supports ionic discharges that allow 'fertility flow' .

 

Other preparations where made in a similar matter , substituting  prima materia , vessels and types of 'athanor'  eg ; dried chamomile flowers inside a ram's bladder hung in the sunlight over spring .  Such things are used to 'increase soil intelligence'  - which does things like stimulate and develop the growth of  fungi strands that are like the soils nervous system that can relay information , say , from a tree far away across a grass field to another on the other side ; one might have an abundance of calcium , the other a lack , it can 'send' 'calcium' along the network to feed the other tree .    Its not the actually substance though .... here, science seems to get a bit confused   

 

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1749461312000048

 

 

Basically it is the method and the intent to take a prime spiritual substance , isolate it, make a substance out of that that will impart 'spirit' to another substance that fulfills the definition of a type of alchemy .

 

Sorry , no metallic gold and no get rich quick and easy .....   but what good is gold if we dont have food ... and good energized healthy food ?

 

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/oct/24/uk-30-40-years-away-eradication-soil-fertility-warns-michael-gove

 

 

 

 

 

[Nungali]

2 hours ago, snowymountains said:

 

If I recall correctly I was replying to this 

 

That links to the whole thread   ... this thread . 

 

 

 

Edited January 16 by Nungali

[Cadcam]

What you claim to have used is not the philosophers stone.  It is the science behind the metaphor of the philosophers stone. 

 

The philosophers stone is in plain sight most of the time, and many people examine it with some result, but do not revere it, because they did not quest for it. 

 

There is a difference between students of Wisdom and Philosophy and actual Adepts.  A true Champion/Knight/Adept would never diminish the victory of acquiring the stone.

Edited January 16 by Cadcam

[Nungali]

1 hour ago, Cadcam said:

What you claim to have used is not the philosophers stone.  It is the science behind the metaphor of the philosophers stone. 

 

Just as well I didnt spend much time answering your question then . 

 

My take on it is that  the 'science behind it' is applicable on various levels .   if it works like the Philosopher's Stone then why not call it  ...

 

Preparation  500  ?

 

 

 

 

1 hour ago, Cadcam said:

 

The philosophers stone is in plain sight most of the time, and many people examine it with some result, but do not revere it, because they did not quest for it. 

 

S, o can you explain your take on it  ,  in detail and process and how you use it , aside from the usual cryptic cover up ?   Maybe devote a little attention to actual details and explain why you think the way you do about it  .... like I just did for your request ?

 

 

 

1 hour ago, Cadcam said:

 

There is a difference between students of Wisdom and Philosophy and actual Adepts.  A true Champion/Knight/Adept would never diminish the victory of acquiring the stone.

 

 

I take that as a statement , although I am not sure about your meaning of 'victory' .   One has to be careful to not let that devolve into 'spiritual pride '  ....   however that can be dispelled by a good dose of  humour  and 'not getting too serious about it'.

 

Obviously , my tradition is not a 'central' one, so I expect some types of criticism from those areas ,  it might even be considered 'spurious' .     

 

 

https://www.heritage-history.com/index.php?c=read&author=heckethorn&book=secret2&story=genuine

[Cadcam]

I think I'll just let secrets be secrets.

[Cobie]

top secret      

 

[old3bob]

don't know about that stone but I like the enneagram of perpetual motion/energy...

 

See link: https://www.ouspenskytoday.org/wp/about-teaching-today/enneagram-in-motion/

 

[Cadcam]

1 hour ago, Cobie said:

top secret      

 

It is less about keeping a secret and more about giving away a good Sirs treasure! The grail or stone is a hard won prize! What fool would I be to reveal its hiding place to the profane, no matter how good they may appear to be! Nungali shows little reverence for sacred knowledge, as for them, it was easily procured, but for us Saints that art Holy, this was borne of life and blood!

[old3bob]

So getting on a high horse are we?   Besides misuse or unqualified use of something will surely bite one in the ass, aka as backfire.

 

[Nungali]

17 hours ago, Cadcam said:

I think I'll just let secrets be secrets.

 

 

Not only did I make the Philosophers Stone  I am also psychic .

 

As  'somehow' I knew that would be your answer to my challenge to you .

 

  

 

 

 

[Cobie]

1 hour ago, old3bob said:

… backfire.

yeah backfire 

 

 

Edited January 16 by Cobie

[Nungali]

1 hour ago, Cadcam said:

It is less about keeping a secret and more about giving away a good Sirs treasure!

 

Well, you see, I am not selfish , I give away lots of treasures , I have never charged for teaching or instruction .  Its against my way and my teacher's way .  But maybe this should have been kept secret and let the worlds soil fertility run out and cause mass starvation ?  

 

The grail or stone is a hard won prize!

 

Indeed it was .  It took years and years and work of one upon work of another .  Even making it and doing just some of the stuff I described is hard work and 'hard won' .

 

I wonder what hard work you have done towards  contributing and helping others .... or do you believe in keeping the treasure in a treasure house and spending all day counting it ?  or let me guess , the treasure is for your own 'immortality ' , perhaps ?

 

 

What fool would I be to reveal its hiding place to the profane, no matter how good they may appear to be!

 

I doubt that would be an issue as if you described it all (if you actually have something to describe and  not just 'bottom wind'  as  suggested )  no doubt some internet know all would come along and say you are wrong , shameful,  or whatever ... while claiming THEY have the real secret but ..... cant tell .

 

Nungali shows little reverence for sacred knowledge, as for them, it was easily procured, but for us Saints that art Holy, this was borne of life and blood! 

 

... when they start using  ' old English '     .....     thou doest make mine eyebrows raiseth

 

 

[old3bob]

1 hour ago, Cobie said:

yeah backfire 

 

 

 

Kundalini gone the wrong direction, he ha...

[Cadcam]

1 hour ago, Nungali said:

 

 

From what I read of you here, nungali, you are that "internet know it all"

[Nungali]

1 hour ago, Cadcam said:

From what I read of you here, nungali, you are that "internet know it all"

 

Nah  .  I dont know about Chinese grammar  and translation . Cobie is the 'know it all ' here about that   .   .

 

Apparently she also is  a good ' bottom wind detector ' .

 

  But I will accept  an   ' on the internet  know -a- bit '     But my 'know all'  is not  from the internet .  I didnt need to do a quick cram from Wikipedia  or some lame youtube about it .

 

Anyway, aside from this attempt at diversion , are you still claiming to be one of the   " us saints that art holy "  ? 

[Nungali]

1 hour ago, old3bob said:

 

Kundalini gone the wrong direction, he ha...

 

Well done !

 

Thats a 'kundalini problem' no one has broached here (yet ) .    And that  ( bringing up a weird kundalini thingo  that no one else thought of so far ) deserves a reward . 

 

 

 The postal service here is terrible , so you will have to go get your own one ... available at walmart

 

https://www.walmart.com/ip/Farting-Trophy-Fart-Champion-Of-The-Year-Award-Novelty-Gift/148891121

[Nungali]

... Wait !

 

A PM just informed I have awarded this trophy to the wrong person .

[Apotheose]

I’ve always understood the Philosopher’s Stone as a metaphor for the ‘Journey’ of Alchemy.

 

However, there may be all sorts of different interpretations of it.

 

I fear that Nungali and Cadcam may be discussing two completely different things (two diverse subjective interpretations of their own), while they might be thinking they are talking about the same thing.

Edited January 17 by Apotheose

[Nungali]

3 hours ago, Apotheose said:

I’ve always understood the Philosopher’s Stone as a metaphor for the ‘Journey’ of Alchemy.

 

However, there may be all sorts of different interpretations of it.

 

I fear that Nungali and Cadcam may be discussing two completely different things (two diverse subjective interpretations of their own), while they might be thinking they are talking about the same thing.

 

I made it pretty clear what I thought ;

 

 

On 16/01/2024 at 12:08 PM, Nungali said:

 

Okay. But you are bound to be disappointed .  

 

First ; there are many types of 'alchemy' , most are familiar with 'metallic  alchemy'    and its seems the most popular (  make  gold you say ! ?  )  . Some are familiar with 'spiritual' or 'internal alchemy ' . Some dispute whether this or that form of alchemy is 'true' real or 'original ' alchemy . IMO (and others ) any system can be an alchemical one if it adheres to its principles and stages and gets the required result  (basically , infusing matter with spirit or quintessence so then that matter will imparet spirit to other things that it touches ) . ..

 

I seem to be agreeing with your above comment ;  " However, there may be all sorts of different interpretations of it. "

 

We can not be sure what Cadcam is discussing because ;

 

On 16/01/2024 at 2:47 PM, Cadcam said:

I think I'll just let secrets be secrets.

 

 

But we can assume he is that 'some'  that I highlighted  in my comment above .

 

and the only mention he makes of it is in his OP as a reference, not a description or opinion of ' type ' or interpretation of what alchemy actually is . The only other hint is the obscure reference in the thread title . ... which seems to ask if one can become immortal through philosophy .

 

[ Note my psychic prediction in the first line before the   

 

 

 

[Cadcam]

As I said, the "secret" is common enough, but obtaining it legitimately is not, and for those that have done so, it is gold, and I will not profane this journey for them or myself by discussing it with the uninitiated, who, as has been made evident by some, do not revere Wisdom as sacred.

Edited January 17 by Cadcam

[Nungali]

12 hours ago, Cadcam said:

As I said, the "secret" is common enough, but obtaining it legitimately is not, and for those that have done so, it is gold, and I will not profane this journey for them or myself by discussing it with the uninitiated, who, as has been made evident by some, do not revere Wisdom as sacred.

 

Ahh ... the snooty high horse  excuse , eh ? 

 

I wonder what you mean by the illegitimate  obtaining . 

 

So, you have made gold , BUT   you won't say how .      

 

Its interesting how you seem to suggest some level of initiation for yourself but cannot detect that in others .

 

I would also like you to expose these 'some'  who do not revere  Wisdom as sacred  ?  - which you won;pt of course , just use vague innuendo  that 'can't' be  challenged or debated about  because ...... secret .  And I wonder how you justify a comment like that when  some people see all as sacred .

 

Maybe you are confused about your own term 'revere '  ? 

 

I also note you avoid pertinent  questions put to you and use diversion and other 'tricks'  in conversation .

 

But then again maybe you do feel it is 'beneath you' to  discuss such things  with  'un holy non saints '

 

But then, why did you start a thread about it in the first place ? 

[Cadcam]

I didn't say you weren't initiated into something, just not this, and of this, I won't discuss, because you simply don't understand, and seem to think you are fully initiated into everything.

[Nungali]

7 hours ago, Cadcam said:

I didn't say you weren't initiated into something, just not this, and of this, I won't discuss, because you simply don't understand, and seem to think you are fully initiated into everything.

 

Of course I am not 'initiated into everything !  Thats a silly assumption  and  an impossibility .

 

If you dont want to discuss it why did you make a thread about it in the first place  and then ask me questions?

 

 

maybe you will answer a different question  then ; what did you actually mean by your thread title  ? is there some precedent or teaching  somewhere that says one can become immortal   through 'philosophy' ... and is that by reading it , agreeing with a specific school , becoming a 'philosopher'  ?  Do you have a variant  definition  of what philosophy is ?

 

And do you know why its termed the Philosopher's Stone   ?