Immortality through Philosophy

[Apotheose]

Wow. Great topic!

 

In my personal view, reincarnation means the process of learning and refining the Phylosopher’s stone. In each incarnation, the soul enters a different body, in a different family, with a different life, to ultimately purify itself. And, of course, this brings up the Divine Justice matter; some experiences in the current life are influenced by previous lives’ actions or lack of actions, in order to learn what wasn’t learned in previous incarnations.

However, although I do believe in reincarnation, I would not be disturbed if I discovered that non of these ideas actually exist in the after life (reincarnation,ressurection, purgatory etc.). In the end of the day, these are dogmas; and ultimately, the Oneness is all there is. Notice that when you are in profound meditation, there’s no axioms, dogmas or even duality. All there is is One. So, getting engaged with religious ideas is not necessary, and depending on the level of attachment to it, it can even deviate one from the Path.

 

On the Immortality idea, I personally don’t like it. I understand that your post is merely theoretical, but I’ve noticed that people who are obsessed with Immortality tend to be very afraid of death. It seems to be a defense mechanism. I think of afterlife as something we cannot understand, because we aren’t there yet. In deep meditation and esoteric practices, if one wants to understand the afterlife, one can ask the Cosmic, and probably the answers would not be something plausible or possible to be “translated” to human language. It’s more of an idea, or “feeling”, or “understanding”, rather than a rational concept. There’s probably no “life” in the afterlife as we know life to be, since probably there’s no physical world, so that’s why I don’t like calling it “immortality”.

 

Edited January 14 by Apotheose

[snowymountains]

1 hour ago, Maddie said:

 

TCM does not see the mind and the body as separate things. The heart is said to house the mind and that is how it is possible to treat the mind with acupuncture. Usually when treating the mind in TCM we treat the heart and the liver, and this affects the mind. 

  This is also how it could be explained that exercising is good for our mood as well as our body.  

 

I see, without comparing to the TCM view, I think what sets Jung apart from other body-mind views is not that he does not take a reductionist view but he then goes beyond that and considers the body embedded in the psyche (instead of the other way round). The consequences of this view, I don't fully grasp but his psychoid archetype is a very interesting read.

 

But in any case he too believed the final answer would only come from what we call today neuroscience, so one day we'll know a definite answer.

[Cadcam]

I now believe that all valid forms of Spirituality and Religion and Philosophy are meant to illustrate Man of "the life" or, what is to be encountered in living. 

 

I believe that these mythologies carry over from Age to Age, and illustrate the Wisdom of that Era, and to learn them we acclimate to the Law of that Age. In pursuing these traditions, one is able to comprehend Order, and be Lawful.  When one accomplishes this, they are able to reach the "promised land" I.e. Zion, Heaven, Nirvana, Elysian Fields, etc.  

 

 

[Maddie]

I think that perhaps a relevant question to ask before one asks if immortality is possible via this or that method, would be to ask, "is it even possible at all?". Considering we have never witnessed anyone that is immortal, what reason is there to believe this is even possible? 

[Cadcam]

The only reason is personal experience, or faith in the Mystics.  

 

Certainly, in early life, when one is forced to conform to a restrictive tradition, one often rebels and declares "I'm going to live by my rules!" For they would rather experience their own Heaven than to work for someone else's. 

 

As I have traveled Astrally, and witnessed much, I have too, done much, my own way, and I can say that in the end, it is nearly the same.

[old3bob]

28 minutes ago, Maddie said:

I think that perhaps a relevant question to ask before one asks if immortality is possible via this or that method, would be to ask, "is it even possible at all?". Considering we have never witnessed anyone that is immortal, what reason is there to believe this is even possible? 

 

Btw. Taoism has several levels of "immortals",  who is the "we" you are talking about Maddie; many would say otherwise based on their first hand experience which of course they can not prove to somebody else.  If all the "we's" want proof they are gonna have to realize it for themselves!  (books, second hand accounts and pointers are not and never will be proof enough)

Edited January 14 by old3bob

[Maddie]

5 minutes ago, old3bob said:

 

Btw. Taoism has several levels of "immortals",  who is the "we" you are talking about Maddie; many would say otherwise based on their first hand experience which of course they can not prove to somebody else.  If all the "we's" want proof they are gonna have to realize it for themselves!  (books and second accounts are not and never will be proof enough)

 

For example the obvious way to prove this would be if there was Bob and Mary the immortals. Walking around and everyone had known them for years and they never age and they could pull out their birth certificates and show that they were born in 1900 would be a pretty good way to prove this. But of course we never see anything like this ever. 

 

*that would make for a great Oprah interview 

Edited January 14 by Maddie

[old3bob]

11 minutes ago, Maddie said:

 

For example the obvious way to prove this would be if there was Bob and Mary the immortals. Walking around and everyone had known them for years and they never age and they could pull out their birth certificates and show that they were born in 1900 would be a pretty good way to prove this. But of course we never see anything like this ever. 

 

*that would make for a great Oprah interview 

 

well there have been accounts of the very long lived people in parts of the world who had pretty good proof of being 150+ years of age but few believe them or want to and just write them off because they don't fit into their reality. 

 

(there goes that "we" again )

 

Souls live on in far more subtle realms than just the physical...and for the Buddhists the historic Buddha said he lived through so many incarnations that they were more or less beyond count...

Edited January 14 by old3bob

[Maddie]

5 minutes ago, old3bob said:

 

well there have been accounts of the very long lived people in parts of the world who had pretty good proof of like 150+ years age but few believe them or want to and just write them off because they don't fit into their reality. 

 

150 years is exceptionally old, but perhaps at the theoretical range of the human life span? But what about someone that is 1000 or 10,000 years old? Surely someone would notice the guy that looked 20 when there were a child, looked 20 when their grandparents were children, and still looks 20 when they are grandparents. This could not possibly escape notice. 

 

  If someone did claim to be 150 I would be skeptical (as I or anyone else should be) but would be curious to see documentation to prove this.

Edited January 14 by Maddie

[old3bob]

9 minutes ago, Maddie said:

 

150 years is exceptionally old, but perhaps at the theoretical range of the human life span? But what about someone that is 1000 or 10,000 years old? Surely someone would notice the guy that looked 20 when there were a child, looked 20 when their grandparents were children, and still looks 20 when they are grandparents. This could not possibly escape notice. 

 

yea, makes one wonder about those very old timers in O.T., were those accounts all just fairy tails?  I don't know.

If I remember correctly several Hunza people have reached 120+ without being in a mystery school.

Edited January 14 by old3bob

[Maddie]

Just now, old3bob said:

 

yea, makes one wonder about those very old timers in O.T., were those accounts all just fairy tails?  I don't know.

 

Yes they were fairy tales lol, or more accurately myths. There is absolutely no archeological evidence for people living that long. 

[old3bob]

I'd say far more more important than prolonging  physical age is the souls realization of the Self. (as pointed to in the Upanishads)  The teaching is that the Self does not become immortal or eternal it has always been so,  beyond death , change, etc..  Of course that also can not be proven except to one per first hand experience.

[Apotheose]

30 minutes ago, Cadcam said:

The only reason is personal experience, or faith in the Mystics.  

 

Certainly, in early life, when one is forced to conform to a restrictive tradition, one often rebels and declares "I'm going to live by my rules!" For they would rather experience their own Heaven than to work for someone else's. 

 

As I have traveled Astrally, and witnessed much, I have too, done much, my own way, and I can say that in the end, it is nearly the same.

Beautifully said.

[snowymountains]

50 minutes ago, Maddie said:

we have never witnessed anyone that is immortal

 

Never watched Highlander, right? 

[old3bob]

11 minutes ago, Maddie said:

 

Yes they were fairy tales lol, or more accurately myths. There is absolutely no archeological evidence for people living that long. 

 

of course "we" don't have proof either that they were all just fairy tells just because they don't fit into what we know  of the world taken at the mundane level.

[Maddie]

1 minute ago, old3bob said:

I'd say far more more important than prolonging  physical age is the souls realization of the Self. (as pointed to in the Upanishads)  The teaching is that the Self does not become immortal or eternal it has always been so,  beyond death , change, etc..  Of course that also can not be proven except to one per first hand experience.

 

Assuming for the sake of argument that this is indeed the case, then it is everyone and there is nothing remarkable about it, nor is there anything that needs to be done to achieve this since it is the case of all sentient beings. But of course usually when people speak of immortality they are speaking of a physical existence I think. 

[old3bob]

5 minutes ago, snowymountains said:

 

Never watched Highlander, right? 

 

yea but only one was left in the end, the rest had their heads chopped off.

[Maddie]

4 minutes ago, old3bob said:

 

of course "we" don't have proof either that they were all just fairy tells just because they don't fit into what we know  of the world taken at the mundane level.

 

This isn't how the burden of proof works though. I can't disprove that absolutely no cookies are made by elves that live in trees. This is not how the burden of proof works though. It is not up to us to disprove every possibility ever, but rather if we make a claim to prove that our claim is true and correct with verifiable evidence. So I would ask, if someone believes that people in the past lived to be thousands of years old, what reason can you give to demonstrate that this is true? 

Edited January 14 by Maddie

[old3bob]

4 minutes ago, Maddie said:

 

Assuming for the sake of argument that this is indeed the case, then it is everyone and there is nothing remarkable about it, nor is there anything that needs to be done to achieve this since it is the case of all sentient beings. But of course usually when people speak of immortality they are speaking of a physical existence I think. 

 

if so why and if one recognizes the historic Buddha then why did he proclaim "wonder of wonders" and so much more?

[Maddie]

Just now, old3bob said:

 

if so why and if one recognizes the historic Buddha then why did he proclaim "wonder of wonders" and so much more?

 

he didn't say that

[snowymountains]

33 minutes ago, Cadcam said:

As I have traveled Astrally, and witnessed much, I have too, done much, my own way, and I can say that in the end, it is nearly the same.

 

And why would the astral realm be a real place where you can witness things.

 

If it happened in sleep time, fine the dream was more vivid than anything else, like being awake it started off somewhere that's exactly like the real world, but if you think about it, while there's something that makes it different to other dreams, there's probably no indication that this place is outside your own psyche.

 

So what you learned there says things about your unconscious, not about what happens when we die, our unconscious doesn't necessarily know that. 

In general, while our unconscious knows a lot, it's not infallible.

[old3bob]

2 minutes ago, Maddie said:

 

he didn't say that

 

I could dig up the text/sutta that I once read, then again Mark may have it on tips of his fingers for us

[snowymountains]

5 minutes ago, old3bob said:

 

yea but only one was left in the end, the rest had their heads chopped off.

 

Miss those days when films had no age ratings and could include whatevs in their scenario 😁

[Maddie]

1 minute ago, old3bob said:

 

if so why and if one recognizes the historic Buddha then why did he proclaim "wonder of wonders" and so much more?

 

here's the thing about the Buddha, and yes I do get asked this a lot. It does not matter if he ever existed or not. Why is this so? The teachings work. They work if he was real, they work if he was not real. I don't need to "believe" in the Buddha, I just need to practice to teachings and see if they work for myself. 

[old3bob]

3 minutes ago, Maddie said:

 

here's the thing about the Buddha, and yes I do get asked this a lot. It does not matter if he ever existed or not. Why is this so? The teachings work. They work if he was real, they work if he was not real. I don't need to "believe" in the Buddha, I just need to practice to teachings and see if they work for myself. 

 

 partly agreed imo,  and I'll say next is not a match in analogy but there is that saying about dropping ones raft after crossing a river, problem is that its unwise to drop the raft (or trustworthy teacher) in the middle of the river.