Immortality through Philosophy

[Nungali]

3 hours ago, old3bob said:

 

of course "we" don't have proof either that they were all just fairy tells just because they don't fit into what we know  of the world taken at the mundane level.

 

You should not believe what a fairy tells you .

Edited January 15 by Nungali

[Nungali]

2 hours ago, Maddie said:

 

here's the thing about the Buddha, and yes I do get asked this a lot. It does not matter if he ever existed or not. Why is this so? The teachings work. They work if he was real, they work if he was not real. I don't need to "believe" in the Buddha, I just need to practice to teachings and see if they work for myself. 

 

 

That how my school  of Magick works !     ' Scientific Illuminism' .-   'Certainty via conclusive experimentation , not faith .'

[Nungali]

2 hours ago, Cadcam said:

I wasn't thinking of immortality of the body, but of this life, this mind, this knowledge, this experience. 

 

Thats the important stuff IMO

 

I believe in souls as a genesis of consciousness, and I wonder if we grow into them, and at what age they appear in the mind. 

 

Well put ; "they appear in the mind " .    They are there IMO from the beginning , but the mind needs to develop to a certain level before the soul can be 'put into' the mind .  Some people never seem to be able to do it ... the soul; sorta sleeps inside and the mind seems bereft of soul  .    

 

I'm certain that we are imbued with souls, as per my experience, but I wonder how this person I am today will survive after death. 

 

It probably won't , unless 'this person' has been imprinted on 'that which does survive '  ... 'the Immortal Osiris '   aspect of the psyche .  usually it is the significant experiences that get 'imprinted ' , a major part of  Magick (and most initiatory traditions ) study and practice this in their death  / rebirth / 3rd degree ceremonies . Part of study and practice should involve the study and practice of death and the 'afterlife' .

 

[Nungali]

1 hour ago, snowymountains said:

 

Then who knows what survives after death, if anything survives in the first place.

 

We can do all sorts of mental gymnastics to convince ourselves we know but we can't know what we haven't experienced.

After we experience death, we can't sent an email to let others know how it is. So nobody else can tell us either.

 

So if we can't know and nobody can't tell us, it means we can't answer it 😉

 

Well, I would not call it an 'email' .... but I have got them !  

 

And I am a very critical analytical  doubting rationalist ... of course, they where all explainable and related to projections from my own mind  .  So I kept telling myself . Then they got more unexplainable  and old rationalist Nungali was having a bit of a battle explaining it all away ... but then I realized the explanations I was HAVING to come up with  to avoid the obvious conclusion where becoming more fantastical than just believing I was getting communications from certain people that had passed on .

 

But that didnt stop me fighting it , I demanded more and more proof, got it and then explained it away . I got one firm message " One last chance, if you are so adamant  and you dont believe this next proof demonstration , well then , so be it ... we will be gone and leave you alone ."   That one blew me outa the water ... I just could not explain it without assuming other crazy stuff , then I realized I was going against  a core teaching in my tradition : " The only true sin is deny what you have found to be true because it does not pander to your prejudices . "

 

I am so glad I accepted the experiences and gave them validity .... what a great help they have been !  

 

Life is VERY hard without 'help from upstairs'  . 

 

I dont go on about it much though as its an experience relevant to me .

[Nungali]

1 hour ago, snowymountains said:

 

A quote I like

“Death is nothing to us. When we exist, death is not; and when death exists, we are not. All sensation and consciousness ends with death and therefore in death there is neither pleasure nor pain. The fear of death arises from the belief that in death, there is awareness.” ― Epicurus

 

One of the upsides of not believing in Bardos I guess😁 

 

I think, to understand this better , we need to realise what  Epicurus  thought he afterlife was like . if peeps back then thought the afterlife was a gloomy boring place where you sat around in the dark   then yes, awareness after death may not be desirable .

 

" The after-life, for the ancient Greeks, consisted of a grey and dreary world in the time of Homer (8th century BCE) and, most famously, we have the scene from Homer's Odyssey in which Odysseus meets the spirit of the great warrior Achilles in the nether-world where Achilles tells him he would rather be a landless slave on earth than a king in the underworld. "

 

https://www.worldhistory.org/article/29/the-after-life-in-ancient-greece/

 

[snowymountains]

21 minutes ago, Nungali said:

 

Well, I would not call it an 'email' .... but I have got them !  

 

And I am a very critical analytical  doubting rationalist ... of course, they where all explainable and related to projections from my own mind  .  So I kept telling myself . Then they got more unexplainable  and old rationalist Nungali was having a bit of a battle explaining it all away ... but then I realized the explanations I was HAVING to come up with  to avoid the obvious conclusion where becoming more fantastical than just believing I was getting communications from certain people that had passed on .

 

But that didnt stop me fighting it , I demanded more and more proof, got it and then explained it away . I got one firm message " One last chance, if you are so adamant  and you dont believe this next proof demonstration , well then , so be it ... we will be gone and leave you alone ."   That one blew me outa the water ... I just could not explain it without assuming other crazy stuff , then I realized I was going against  a core teaching in my tradition : " The only true sin is deny what you have found to be true because it does not pander to your prejudices . "

 

I am so glad I accepted the experiences and gave them validity .... what a great help they have been !  

 

Life is VERY hard without 'help from upstairs'  . 

 

I dont go on about it much though as its an experience relevant to me .

 

I can't know what you refer to, do you refer to an NDE or divination experiences ?

 

I am not discounting what you experienced nor would I give it a mundane explanation but if it's an NDE still it's not the same to after all is said and done with the body gone etc, so the experience may not be the same.

 

If it's a divination experience you refer to during which something or someone said something, I would ask why would you trust at face value what it said about afterlife.

Edited January 14 by snowymountains

[Nungali]

1 hour ago, Apotheose said:

In my view, believing is ‘not knowing’, that’s why it is called “belief”.
I know the ‘Oneness’. However, I believe in reincarnation, I believe in souls, I believe in angels, I believe the sephiroth.

 

But I can’t really give you anything more than that. It’s totally subjective, as it is based in one’s whole life of studying and thinking. But, to be honest, I truly wanted to be able to answer rationally your questions.

 

Good .

 

In studying Comparative Religion ( at a secular university ) the subject was not approached until we did a series of lectures on belief and the nature of belief ... many non secular students abandoned  the course during this stage ... they WOULD NOT tolerate any difference in understanding between  belief and knowledge ..

 

I remember years back now some guy asked us what we believed about creation , I said I believed that two giant snakes did it , an earth and a 'space' snake did it   ( The Wallenganda and Ungud 'myth' ) .  he was outraged, insulting and abusive ... " How can you believe that ! ?  .... abuse abuse ... "

 

I answered ' because its a BELIEF ."  he didnt get it and kept up until a Mod caned him .

 If he asked me how I thought about it ,  he would have got a different answer .

 

We can actually use our beliefs instead of them using us   

 

beliefs and knowledge ... they are funny things and many have them confused ; just the other day, my friend, who is pretty tuned in and turned on  said  " So and so did ..... "

 

Me; " And why do you believe that ? "

 

Her ' " I KNOW it  ..... as  X  told me so ."

 

Me ; "  Nah !  You believe  so and so did it , but all you know is  that  x told you so and so did it . "

 

[snowymountains]

9 minutes ago, Nungali said:

 

I think, to understand this better , we need to realise what  Epicurus  thought he afterlife was like . if peeps back then thought the afterlife was a gloomy boring place where you sat around in the dark   then yes, awareness after death may not be desirable .

 

" The after-life, for the ancient Greeks, consisted of a grey and dreary world in the time of Homer (8th century BCE) and, most famously, we have the scene from Homer's Odyssey in which Odysseus meets the spirit of the great warrior Achilles in the nether-world where Achilles tells him he would rather be a landless slave on earth than a king in the underworld. "

 

https://www.worldhistory.org/article/29/the-after-life-in-ancient-greece/

 

 

He wasn't a contemporary of Homer, more choices were available, he could had chosen to believe the Orphics that there's a way out by drinking the water of knowledge or he could had chosen to believe he'll eventually be at the Ulysses fields.

 

The quote by Epicurus shows his own take on what death is, and imo it's a very wise way to treat the matter during life.

[Nungali]

1 hour ago, Maddie said:

 

I get that. Belief and knowing are two different things, but I want at the very least to try to the best of my ability to make sure that my beliefs are at least well founded. For example I believe that Joe Biden is the president of the United States and lives in the White House. I've never actually met him nor have I been to the White House so I guess it technically could all be a giant conspiracy and in reality and alien lizard from Mars runs the country but I believe he's the president and he lives in the White House and I feel like I have good reason to do so even though I can't necessarily prove it. I at least feel like it's a well-founded belief.

 

" Except ......  I KNOW he is a lizard man !!!!!!   " 

 

 

^  Me 

[Nungali]

1 hour ago, blue eyed snake said:

Not so sure neuroscience has proven that,

but apart from neuroscience, most people believe that consciousness is a function of the brain because it's the paradigm we grow up in.

 

Regarding evidence, you could maybe read some books about near death experiences, and/or about kids with memories of former lives that turned out to be amazingly to the point.

 

Just to wiggle the paradigm a bit so to say, its interesting stuff.

 

from the perspective of an historian   ( Maddie ?    ) though  , especially  an anthropological historian , we should look at the whole 'fan' of opened out human experience  and viewpoint on such things .... the modern one, based on this modern paradigm is a tiny sliver of our collective 'understanding' . . . of course that gives 'us' ultimate validity .... because its us  .   

 

I recommend Patrick Harpur

 

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/664216.The_Philosophers_Secret_Fire

 

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/920181.Daimonic_Reality

[old3bob]

1 hour ago, Nungali said:

 

Nah ! 

 

Fairies  dont have tails .

 

some might, helps them fly better, btw what about people with stub like tails?

 

Edited January 14 by old3bob

[Nungali]

26 minutes ago, snowymountains said:

 

I can't know what you refer to, do you refer to an NDE or divination experiences ?

 

I am not discounting what you experienced nor would I give it a mundane explanation but if it's an NDE still it's not the same to after all is said and done with the body gone etc, so the experience may not be the same.

 

If it's a divination experience you refer to during which something or someone said something, I would ask why would you trust at face value what it said about afterlife.

 

It was neither NDE nor divination . So I cant  answer your question .

 

If it had been a 'divination'   and someone claimed something I would not trust it at all, either , nor did I trust my  experience . I  would test  it ... just the same way one would test any other communication physical or magical  .

 

[Nungali]

34 minutes ago, snowymountains said:

 

He wasn't a contemporary of Homer, more choices were available, he could had chosen to believe the Orphics that there's a way out by drinking the water of knowledge or he could had chosen to believe he'll eventually be at the Ulysses fields.

 

The quote by Epicurus shows his own take on what death is, and imo it's a very wise way to treat the matter during life.

 

But that is because you both choose to believe there is no afterlife  . He didnt choose what the others taught , he denied life after death , regardless of what he 'could have chosen' . ... I dont get your point of significance there ... you could also have chosen a modern perspective of belief in afterlife yourself ... but you didnt  (apparently )  ... or maybe I am just detecting your 'uncertainty'  ?

 

Dont worry , my certainty  should not interfere with your uncertainty ....  I am not trying to proselytize .

 

I mean , I have certainty .... but I am not denying I could be wrong . As I said earlier , even if this is it and nothing after death , I still rejoice and appreciate the experience of being alive .... once  ... how special !

[snowymountains]

13 minutes ago, Nungali said:

 

It was neither NDE nor divination . So I cant  answer your question .

 

If it had been a 'divination'   and someone claimed something I would not trust it at all, either , nor did I trust my  experience . I  would test  it ... just the same way one would test any other communication physical or magical  .

 

 

Ok that makes sense, and you'd do well, the prime candidate for an alternative is synchronicities.

 

I gather you did your tests for that too. There's no answer, noone other you can know if what you saw was a synchronicity or a very low probability sequence of independent events.

If you thought about the probabilities rigourously and concluded it wasn't random events, then that's your experience.

[Nungali]

25 minutes ago, old3bob said:

 

some might, helps them fly better, btw what about people with stub like tails?

 

 

Geeze mate !   

 

Are you sure you got that 'the right way around' ? 

 

[blue eyed snake]

6 minutes ago, Nungali said:

But that is because you both choose to believe there is no afterlife  . He didnt choose what the others taught , he denied life after death , regardless of what he 'could have chosen' . ... I dont get your point of significance there ... you could also have chosen a modern perspective of belief in afterlife yourself ... but you didnt  (apparently )  ... or maybe I am just detecting your 'uncertainty'  ?

 

me thinks we're not all that free to choose what we believe.

 

reading your story of how you have fought to not believe the obvious that was put before you, again and again.

[snowymountains]

2 minutes ago, Nungali said:

 

But that is because you both choose to believe there is no afterlife  . He didnt choose what the others taught , he denied life after death , regardless of what he 'could have chosen' . ... I dont get your point of significance there ... you could also have chosen a modern perspective of belief in afterlife yourself ... but you didnt  (apparently )  ... or maybe I am just detecting your 'uncertainty'  ?

 

Dont worry , my certainty  should not interfere with your uncertainty ....  I am not trying to proselytize .

 

I mean , I have certainty .... but I am not denying I could be wrong . As I said earlier , even if this is it and nothing after death , I still rejoice and appreciate the experience of being alive .... once  ... how special !

 

My perspective is agnostic, I don't know.

I believe it all ends and whatever good we did continues with those who benefited, whatever bad we did afflicted those who were impacted and this is what remains of us after we've passed, our indirect impact in the world.

During the moment of death it's probably blissful to know we did a good job and scary to know we did a bad job and there's no chance to correct it.

Perhaps that's heaven and hell what we experience the few moments of duration of the death process.

[Nungali]

4 minutes ago, snowymountains said:

 

Ok that makes sense, and you'd do well, the prime candidate for an alternative is synchronicities.

 

I gather you did your tests for that too. There's no answer, noone other you can know if what you saw was a synchronicity or a very low probability sequence of independent events.

If you thought about the probabilities rigourously and concluded it wasn't random events, then that's your experience.

 

and after that  main event of 'conversion'  ( meaning  after I accepted  the occurrences for what I first thought it was  and what it claimed to be  ) and gave it more credence , it kept delivering  great stuff .  Even after that , sometimes I have doubted the veracity of the advice  ... but in the long run 'damn it !'  'they ' right  ... time and time again .

 

yep, my experience , and even others that have it too, I doubt its the same for them , we all different .  For example I put a lot of it down to my extreme and wide natured  natal Neptune influence  and (thankfully) its moderation to a fairly well balanced and placed Mercury - I say 'fairly' well balanced as it seems to list a little to the critical doubting side  , which has been to my detriment and near detriment at times .

[Nungali]

5 minutes ago, blue eyed snake said:

 

me thinks we're not all that free to choose what we believe.

 

reading your story of how you have fought to not believe the obvious that was put before you, again and again.

 

I didnt really 'fight to not believe' .... I fought to find an alternative reason for the experience other than what it claimed to be .

[Unota]

3 hours ago, Maddie said:

 

This isn't how the burden of proof works though. I can't disprove that absolutely no cookies are made by elves that live in trees. This is not how the burden of proof works though. It is not up to us to disprove every possibility ever, but rather if we make a claim to prove that our claim is true and correct with verifiable evidence. So I would ask, if someone believes that people in the past lived to be thousands of years old, what reason can you give to demonstrate that this is true? 

Exactly! I could just as easily tell someone else I am 120 while looking like I am in my 20's...Because I am. Anyone at any point in history could have done this. People just like to mess with people sometimes. You can just say whatever you want, whenever you want.

 

As for my own ideas on 'heaven,' 'immortality,' or 'reincarnation,' I don't think I care much for any of them. I don't like the idea of heaven, because most people use it as an excuse to be terrible during life. If you have your own ideas of an afterlife, and what ends you have to meet to achieve it, that means you also have your own concept of what is a failure to achieve it, and you can hold those standards above other people, while...lifting Your own sense of self. If there is a form of heaven, there is no way for you to know what truly determines it's 'entry.' You either get to experience heaven or you don't. I think it's irrelevant, trying to debate it's existence, or what you should do to achieve it.

 

This is another reason that I don't much like the concept of immortality. Your current existence is not something that should be 'escaped.' I also do not think that immortality, or heaven can be achieved, by letting...the prospect of achieving them dictate your life. You don't do good things to get into heaven, you do good things because you are good. You don't cultivate to become an immortal, but you cultivate to find your own...peace?

 

I don't think that my life, or life in general, is something to escape. I love life. I love my life. I love humans. And - I know that this may be hard to believe to some people that know me, because I love being dramatic and complaining a lot...- I love all of it no matter how cruel it can be, because it can also be just as good. But I am not afraid of dying. I am not afraid of nonexistence. That's what I think of them. They're mere thoughts, and I think, making up your own ideas about them, can put you at risk of creating your own standards that may not actually exist, which you apply to other people who do not deserve that kind of perception of them. I don't think I really effectively communicated how exactly I feel about this, but...close enough.

 

That isn't to say that I don't think there might be heaven, or 'immortality,' or some form of afterlife that I can not possibly perceive, I just don't think that...there is a point in...deciding what I think they might be, or how to get there. I do my best in life. I know that I do. I know that, because I know I am trying, and I try to be good. If that is not enough, then it is not enough. Oops. Oh well. You know what I mean? I am not going to...let things like that control me.

[Nungali]

21 minutes ago, snowymountains said:

 

My perspective is agnostic, I don't know.

I believe it all ends and whatever good we did continues with those who benefited, whatever bad we did afflicted those who were impacted and this is what remains of us after we've passed, our indirect impact in the world.

 

Great words !  I said something similar at my mothers funeral ; she was gone but her good upbringing continued on in us ; my brother and sister passed it on to their kids  and now they have kids and care for them well .  I dont have kids but I care a lot for others kids and help out - I worked in a hospital for 10 years washing and caring and showing compassion to the elderly and infirm and sick , did Amnesty International volunteer  stuff, worked in refugee relocation etc .

 

-  I remember one story from my  brother ; he worked as a teacher , at first , just out of college , he was sent to a very poor and failing social area . he was shocked " Many of the kids in my class, the parents dont even send them to school with lunch or money to buy any, they go hungry oir try to take others food ... so , back then , poor old Mum was making lunches for all three of us kids to take with us , plus about 5 or 6 lunches to give to my brother so he could hand them out .  And she got that from her parents .

 

" The wheel of bad karma stops here - dont pass it on . "

 

 

During the moment of death it's probably blissful to know we did a good job and scary to know we did a bad job and there's no chance to correct it.

Perhaps that's heaven and hell what we experience the few moments of duration of the death process.

 

I asked years back on here ... what if ( the experience you just described ) is timeless and seems in our mind to be an eternity, but in 'reality'  ( the state you where in when living ) was just a moment .... would that make any difference to you ?

 

'Marblehead' said no  . I dont think anyone else answered ... but he didnt believe in life after death  .... then he died .  I suppose he found out  .

 

I know .... I know  ..... THE  paradox .     

 

Edited January 15 by Nungali

[silent thunder]

Seems to me Awareness is the basis of all that is and is the basis for anything that encounters what is.

Without awareness... what could there be for one to be aware of?

 

Awareness is. 

We are aware.

So awareness is here, now.

 

 

Does it end?  I sense not as it seems the basis for all that is, but if it did... how could you ever know? 

[snowymountains]

8 hours ago, Nungali said:

 

 

I don't know if there's a realisation of the final moment in the sense of measuring time with a clock by an independent observer. The dying observer may not be able to realise that moment.

 

I'm not saying a final moment doesn't exist btw, all I say is I don't know if the dying person becomes aware of such a moment, even if they are aware that they are in the process of dying.

 

If so, and this view is something that if false it's rejectable during death, but if true it can't be rejected even during death by the dying person.

 

If there's no realisation of a final moment, then it's an experience which is not bound by time for the experiencer, in the sense that they cannot perceive an end.

Or to rephrase, if they were doing insight meditation during the dying process, it could be that they may not be able to note the end of the process.

 

If that qualifies for timeless I don't know and ultimately if even during death we may not know , how can we know while we are alive.

 

 

Edited January 15 by snowymountains

[Sanity Check]

On 1/13/2024 at 7:19 AM, Cadcam said:

I've thought a great deal about the afterlife, Heaven, reincarnation, and immortality. 

 

I was wondering what everyone thought about these ideas? 

 

Do you think one needs the Philosophers Stone to be qualified as Immortal? Certainly there are other paths to Immortality. Do you think you can achieve Immortality without being recognized by Man?

 

 

I try to not to think about or care about an afterlife or heaven. Simply do the right thing. 

 

The philosopher's stone. Seems like a western version of china's immortality elixirs. A form of specially processed mercury appears to be one the main ingredient of both immortality elixirs and philosopher's stone. Which makes for an interesting coincidence.

 

As far as immortality goes...

 

It is known that the maximum size of land animals depends upon the size of the land mass they reside upon. The maximum size of sea creatures depends upon the size of the water mass they reside within. This can be seen with fish in aquariums. Fish grow faster in large aquariums than in small ones. As if their biology has a built in mechanism which regulates their growth based upon the size of their habitat.

 

There are some frogs with the ability to switch genders when there are too many male or female in the population. Which would appear to be another built in biological mechanism regulating fertility.

 

I think species may also have a biology which reacts to environmental conditions and scales things like lifespan accordingly. 

 

Which could explain why some sources credit early humans with being long lived. Later when the human population grew and exceptionally long lifespans were no longer necessary to propagate species. The biological mechanism (or God) shortened the human lifespan to a more sustainable maximum age.

 

More than a decade ago, I remember reading many science articles claiming the theoretical ceiling for human lifespan was around 500 years. None of their research or methodology had anything to do with what I'm saying here. Hacking human biology to extend lifespan is an old concept. 

 

Certainly, it is possible.

 

But there is no one I have seen who has any good ideas for how to do it in real world application.

 

 

Edited January 15 by Sanity Check

[Cadcam]

11 hours ago, Nungali said:

 

You say you've had the philosophers stone? I'd love to hear what it is, and how you came to possessing it.