anatomical basis for meridians, is it fascia network?

[snowymountains]

I read at several places on the web that the fascia network is what's anatomically backing TCM's concept of meridians.

Everywhere that I saw this provided some sort of reference anatomy trains.

 

How endorsed is that view, have there been clinical studies linking the two ( fascia network to meridians )?

 

Since the meridians work, as in they do have practical applications ie treatments based on them, they must have some sort of anatomical linkage, but is fascia this linkage or it remains an unknown what the linkage is ?

[CityHermit!]

6 minutes ago, snowymountains said:

I read at several places on the web that the fascia network is what's anatomically backing TCM's concept of meridians.

Everywhere that I saw this provided some sort of reference anatomy trains.

 

How endorsed is that view, have there been clinical studies linking the two ( fascia network to meridians )?

 

Since the meridians work, as in they do have practical applications ie treatments based on them, they must have some sort of anatomical linkage, but is fascia this linkage or it remains an unknown what the linkage is ?

A lot of nerve and fluid circulation, not merely the blood stream but also things like lymph, pathways align with where meridians are said to be. I don't think meridians would correlate to just one thing. I mean, for instance, when doing acupuncture, the depth of the needle counts as far as what's being attempted. So at one level you might be closer to a nerve, an artery or vein, etc. Not to mention the acupoints themselves are, at least to some degree, at the skin level are they not? And while its said that a meridian corresponds to an organ, what I think is also the case is that it has to do with the flow of vitality, whether nervous system or endocrine based, according to time, since some meridians are said to be more active at various times and the body of course is also doing things each day according to time and circumstance. Although I'm not a TCM doctor, I have and read the classics plus more, including a lot of Western Anatomy texts, and have figured out a lot of this not only through the materials available but through my own experience from the inside out so to say. 

[CityHermit!]

Outside of TCM and meridians though, aren't doctors and scientists still unsure what fascia is for? I believe I was reading something like that recently. Also, not too many years ago, they found something that may correspond to the Triple Burner/Heater. Whatever the case, we have so much to explore in Medicine and it would be to everyone's benefit so we can all live healthier, longer, happier lives, as opposed to investments in research or science fields that do not yield this or to the same degree.

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

Yes it is the fascia network 

[Sherman Krebbs]

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-021-92194-z  interesting article (which I just skimmed) about fascia to this point. 

[Master Logray]

14 hours ago, CityHermit! said:

Outside of TCM and meridians though, aren't doctors and scientists still unsure what fascia is for? I believe I was reading something like that recently. Also, not too many years ago, they found something that may correspond to the Triple Burner/Heater. Whatever the case, we have so much to explore in Medicine and it would be to everyone's benefit so we can all live healthier, longer, happier lives, as opposed to investments in research or science fields that do not yield this or to the same degree.

 

 

Indeed.   More than half a century ago, people thought the effects of Chi Kung and internal arts came from more oxygen in breathing exercises.   When Quantum Theory was a hit, people speculate it was quantum effects.  Now fascia is popular, then it becomes the rationale behind.  To look back, some of these speculations were stupid but they used the most modern theory at that time.

 

 

 

 

 

[RobB]

Does it matter? If you're a physical therapist working with fascia then work with fascia. If you are working with meridians work with meridians. I spend some time looking at this years ago when I was studying shiatsu for a while. In the end I think I did myself, and the discipline, some disservice by trying to explain and understand one world view in terms of the other. It certainly didn't help me be better at shiatsu. 

[Sahaja]

It’s interesting how we use science to give us a sense of control of the world. However from a Daoist perspective this attempt at control or governance limits our ability to perceive and understand what’s really going on.  When you song (release) and ting (listen) you are essentially circumventing  this control the limited self imposes to try to reinforce or protect itself. It can be quite amazing what arises when you do this. Qi goes from being a faint sensation on the skin of the hands to the visceral equivalent of a punch in the nose.

 

i am not anti scientific method as I think it’s very useful but it can get in the way in self cultivation if it’s being used to reinforce or protect the limited self.
 

on fascia I think they may be close. My understanding it’s the huang that has a crucial role with qi production and connectivity throughout the body. Though I am not sure it explains how one can release (song) and move Jin inside the body from a point outside the body.  I think this brings in some discussion of energetic fields that extend out from us. 
 

this perspective arose from observations of some common behaviors in myself and others, particularly beginners, when confronted with seemingly strange physical phenomena in the practice.  It’s not meant as a criticism, more of an acknowledgement. 
 

 

Edited January 18 by Sahaja

[寒月 Hanyue]

*

Edited February 1 by 寒月 Hanyue

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

@snowymountains Check this out, a study done on cadavers to see if meridians correspond with fascia 

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6448339/

Edited February 1 by -ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-

[snowymountains]

30 minutes ago, -ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ- said:

@snowymountains Check this out, a study done on cadavers to see if meridians correspond with fascia 

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6448339/

 

Thanks, very interesting

 

"

Our study clearly supports the view that the human body's fascia network may be the physical substrate represented by the meridians of TCM [1]. Specifically, this hypothesis is supported by our anatomical, morphological, and histological observations made in human corpses.

"

 

I'll read it in more detail next week but from a skim read it looks like clinical studies are starting to back the fascia network view.

[RobB]

 Also worth considering that there are different categories of channels (sinew, primary, extraordinary, etc) Tom Bisio has written a series of posts on YJJ which talks about fascia. Article text

[Nintendao]

I wonder if the iron inside of hemoglobin orients to the biomagnetic field. The iron ion is what enables red blood cells to transport oxygen. Fascia and other tissues receiving oxygen from them, would be most energized along the meridians.

 

iron filings organized into meridian-like structure within magnetic field.

 

SQUID magnetometry has measured heart field extending several feet from the body

 

Alex Gray worked in a med-school morgue prior to developing the Sacred Mirrors

[silent thunder]

[Sahaja]

In South Asian medicine and self cultivation they have a subtle body system with  13 main nadis  and 108 marma points with the nadis originating from a point just below the naval called the kanda. The maps of these are in many cases very similar to the East Asian subtle body maps. (e.g. hrt marma and laogong point in the palms quite similar in location, kanda similar to lower Dan tien). The knowledge of the  marma points was developed in martial arts for treatment of injuries sustained in battle. Each point has a description of what happens when the point is injured, what system is affected  and how to treat it (or if it is fatal!). 

 

while the subtle body maps look  similar in South Asian systems to East Asian systems, in the South Asian tantric yoga systems the nadis are also known for conducting sound and the interaction between mudras (hand and body positions) and mantras are an important part of their yogic sadhana. This includes Nyasa Vidham which when used in cultivation  is essentially a practice to become aware of the natural sounds residing in specific areas of the body represented by the sounds of the  letters of the Sanskrit alphabet. These sounds constitute  tools for extracting and gathering power from different parts of the body through the subtle currents, the chakras and the central nadi which is also known as the pathway of sound.

 

south Asian systems also include a practice of acupuncture based on their own subtle body maps, but it’s not as widespread or as common as it is in East Asian medicine. 

 

[Mark Foote]

On 1/18/2024 at 1:32 AM, Brad M said:

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-021-92194-z  interesting article (which I just skimmed) about fascia to this point. 
 

 

 

This study (research by Indahl, A., et al.) established that the ligamento-muscular reflex existed between the sacroiliac joint and muscles that attach to the bones that make up the sacroiliac joint. (The study’s authors) suggested that the sacroiliac joint was a regulator of pelvic and paraspinal muscles and, thereby, influences posture and lumbar segmental stability.

(Serola Biomechanics website summary of Indahl, A., et al., Sacroiliac joint involvement in activation of the porcine spinal and gluteal musculature. Journal of Spinal Disorders, 1999. 12(4): p. 325-30; 
https://europepmc.org/article/med/10451049
https://www.serola.net/research-category/the-nutation-lesion-2/ligamento-muscular-reflex/)

 

That would say that ligaments have a role  in the activity of nearby muscle groups.  Cheng Man Ch'ing related three stages and nine levels in the development of ch'i, centered on the ligaments (I summarize the stages/levels down in the body of my post:   A Way of Living)

Gautama's analogy for the fourth concentration:
 

Again, a (person), putting away ease… enters and abides in the fourth musing; seated, (one) suffuses (one’s) body with purity by the pureness of (one’s) mind so that there is not one particle of the body that is not pervaded with purity by the pureness of (one’s) mind. … just as a (person) might sit with (their) head swathed in a clean cloth; even so (one) sits suffusing (their) body with purity… 

(AN III 25-28, Pali Text Society Vol. III p 18-19, see also MN III 92-93, PTS p 132-134)

 

Gautama also provided a second analogy for the fourth concentration, similar to the first but with cloth around the entire frame:
 

Just …as if a (person) were sitting so wrapt from head to foot in a clean white robe, that there were no spot in (their) entire frame not in contact with the clean white robe—just so… does (a person) sit there, so suffusing even his body with that sense of purification, of translucence, of heart, that there is no spot in his whole frame not suffused therewith. 

(DN I 76, Pali Text Society Vol I p 86)

 

I would say that's about an evenness in the stretch of ligaments throughout the body, that translates into a sensitivity of the dermatomes over the entire surface of the body. 

Physicians sometimes run a pin over a specific area on the surface of the skin, to determine whether or not nerve exits between specific vertebrae of the spine are impinged. 

Definition and charts of the dermatomes:

Dermatomes are areas of skin on your body that rely on specific nerve connections on your spine. In this way, dermatomes are much like a map. The nature of that connection means that dermatomes can help a healthcare provider detect and diagnose conditions or problems affecting your spine, spinal cord or spinal nerves.
 

(https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/body/24379-dermatomes)

 

 

 

That's not to say the fascial tissue doesn't have a critical role in the evenness of stretch in ligaments throughout the body.  Maybe as your article suggests, proprioception in the deep fascia tissue gets stimulated by the needles, and that proprioception informs the placement of attention, or more exactly the placement of attention through necessity experienced in the movement of breath.  The placement of attention through necessity, and a sense of gravity wherever attention is placed, initiate the activity that results in an even stretch of ligaments throughout the body.

 

 

Edited February 11 by Mark Foote