Your thoughts on Black Magic

[Apotheose]

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Edited April 8 by Apotheose

[Neirong]

Ah, the division between black and white is purely mundane and egoistic, and is mostly articulated by people who have no relation to magic tradition what so ever and are mostly cosplaying/roleplaying into magic.

Same events viewed from different perspective are seen differently. Two examples:

A person jumps under the fast speed train, gets smashed into paste, is the train evil?
A person, lights a candlefire in the ocean depths, hoping to warm it/energize up for the benefit of all living beings, is that an act of good?
 

17 minutes ago, Apotheose said:

In simple terms: does it work really?

Magic certainly works. But it really takes a long training to develop a density and qualities of upper mental bodies. For most people, unfortunately they don't have neither the discipline, nor the patience to walk this path.

The results don't depend on wherever you do "good or bad", with knife you can do various things, it is just a tool.

[Apotheose]

I’d like to thank Neirong for the response.

 

However, I’d like to politely ask the forum to mention - in their responses - if they have ever seen real evidences of it. Maybe a reliable friend confirmed its legitimacy, or they saw it with their own eyes, or they even did it and succeeded in the effort of causing harm to others.

 

I don’t think theoretical responses would add much to the discussion, as there are authentic magi who believe it and authentic magi who don’t.

 

Thank you.  

Edited January 18 by Apotheose

[snowymountains]

While I do believe it's all psychological, it's not necessarily entirely in the sense you describe, self-suggestive. Through the lens of Jungian/analytical psychology there are other possible mechanisms.

 

Jung spoke of thought forms that one may interact with and they're something outside the personal Psyche. Remember that Jung believed that the body is embedded within the Psyche, not the other way round.

 

Now to the question, in that framework, can a third party "implant" a thought form , and specifically an evil one which in turn may cause mental hazard, influence, cause psychosomatic hazard etc ?

As a note, the thought forms Jung documented were not malevolent.

 

The honest answer is I don't know if this is possible but as emotions transference is clinically verified to happen, why rule out in principle something like that happening with a thought form.

 

I'm not saying it is certain that it's possible, there's no evidence that a thought form can be "implanted". It does take a leap of faith to consider it a fact.

 

For the other part, assuming this is possible, whoever comes in contact with a thought form is not the thought form's puppet and does not need to be.

 

In Zen there are grounding techniques that have a spiritual vector to them, there are also shielding techniques.

The legend has it that post-satori Zen masters are "invisible to ghosts", I interpret that as unaffected by thought forms.

 

To be honest no thought form can influence anyone if they consciously and unconsciously do not want that.

 

So the full answer is I don't know if projecting a specific thought form to a specific person is possible and even more so if specific techniques labeled as black magic can do this.

But even if it is, it would affect some persons while others it wouldn't affect.

 

You can read Jung's Red Book, it has first hand experiences with thought forms, though none of these were "implanted" 

 

Keep in mind that the most common thing to happen is not talking to thought forms, it's rather that people often start a dialogue with a part of their "internal family system"/IFS and instead believe they're talking to spirits.

One would need to carefully test and reject the IFS scenario first before considering it may be a thought form.

[SirPalomides]

I have family members who insist vehemently that they have been cursed (by other family members) and as a result have had no communication with a part of the family for decades. 

 

Quote

From what I’ve seen in my life, white magi tend to not believe that Black Magic works. They often say either (i) it is entirely false or (ii) it can work against people who are very afraid of it, in a psychological “self-suggestive phenomenon”.

 

From what I've seen, "white magi", at least the ones who are clever, will very much insist that black magic works, which is why you need their services. Mao Shan Daoists will certainly tell you that black magic is real and what you need to do to protect yourself. Michael Saso's book Taoist Master Chuang has an entire chapter devoted to "the Tao of the Left" which the Zhengyi master learns so as to better defend against it. 

 

I think the explanation "it's psychological" is suggestive of a mind-body dualism that seems less and less tenable the more I learn about magic (or psychology, for that matter). Or let's concede the point- it's psychological... and? Is the psyche somehow unreal? Magic has many, many forms. Some people think it requires accumulating some kind of mojo through arduous practice, but it can also be as simple as poetry. 

[snowymountains]

5 hours ago, SirPalomides said:

I have family members who insist vehemently that they have been cursed (by other family members) and as a result have had no communication with a part of the family for decades. 

 

 

From what I've seen, "white magi", at least the ones who are clever, will very much insist that black magic works, which is why you need their services. Mao Shan Daoists will certainly tell you that black magic is real and what you need to do to protect yourself. Michael Saso's book Taoist Master Chuang has an entire chapter devoted to "the Tao of the Left" which the Zhengyi master learns so as to better defend against it. 

 

I think the explanation "it's psychological" is suggestive of a mind-body dualism that seems less and less tenable the more I learn about magic (or psychology, for that matter). Or let's concede the point- it's psychological... and? Is the psyche somehow unreal? Magic has many, many forms. Some people think it requires accumulating some kind of mojo through arduous practice, but it can also be as simple as poetry. 

 

The value of something being possible or even not ruled out in terms of psychology is important.

 

The reason is that if something is ruled out by both physical means and psychological means, one can safety assume it's doesn't exist.

[Apotheose]

6 hours ago, SirPalomides said:

From what I've seen, "white magi", at least the ones who are clever, will very much insist that black magic works, which is why you need their services

Despite the discussion is not about “white magic”, I’d only point out that I don’t think it would be accurate to consider as ‘Magi’ only those people who want to sell their services to the public. In this topic, I mean Magic in lato sensu. For example: some western esoteric orders consider Jesus to have been a “white magus”, apart from being a Christ; since he supposedly had contact with the Essenes and was initiated to the Mysteries.

 

Or, similarly, if we are talking about black magic, the magi wouldn’t be only those who offer a practice/ritual for money; but also a jealous or envy person who simply does it to harm another person.

[old3bob]

largely naive sounding people,  I have not heard in your speculations of any experiences brought up dealing with evil, like most of us you will probably have to learn the hard way if at all?   (btw. there is evil among us that has certain "Christians" praying for the success of demonic forces of violence, even putting out the idea of murdering those who stand in their way, if that is not a form of black magic what is?)

Edited January 18 by old3bob

[SirPalomides]

18 minutes ago, Apotheose said:

Despite the discussion is not about “white magic”, I’d only point out that I don’t think it would be accurate to consider as ‘Magi’ only those people who want to sell their services to the public. In this topic, I mean Magic in lato sensu. For example: some western esoteric orders consider Jesus to have been a “white magus”, apart from being a Christ; since he supposedly had contact with the Essenes and was initiated to the Mysteries.

 

Or, similarly, if we are talking about black magic, the magi wouldn’t be only those who offer a practice/ritual for money; but also a jealous or envy person who simply does it to harm another person.

 

I'm not limiting anything to people who sell services. I'm just saying, there are "white magi" who will indeed insist that black magic is real, and that they have skills that can ward it off. 

 

As for Jesus... well, by the examples you provided in the OP, the imprecatory psalms would count as black magic. 

[Nungali]

20 hours ago, Apotheose said:

I’ve seen that this topic has already appeard in this forum’s history, but I’d really like to hear opinions from the current active members.

 

Firstly, I’d like to clarify that by “Black Magic” I do NOT mean ‘magic from African-descendent mystical or religious traditions’. Actually, I mean the old popularized term which reffers to ‘magic that has selfish or evil purposes’.

 

Some of that is VERY black ... look at the reports of 'Witchcraft' in some modern African countries , truly bad stuff ... child murders and all sorts of crap going on .

 

However I have done other stuff ( 'Voodoun' ) from an African root / descent  and it was nothing like that  and very good  ( besides , I like drumming   )

 

 

20 hours ago, Apotheose said:

From what I know, White Magic is every magical practice/ritual made to ‘create’ a certain positive circumstance for All. By “All”, I mean for both the magus and humanity in general, or even just for other people (not including the magus).

 

Thats the best approach ;  in the 'dynamics of human stupidity ' , 'intelligence ' is defined as finding  and enacting solutions to problems that benefit you and other people . 'Stupidity ' is enacting solutions that neither help you or others  and can impact negatively .

 

On the other hand, Black Magic would be any magical practice that is purely selfish or even evil.

 

I can agree with that . There is also another definition , a sort of 'life denial' philosophy ; 'black gnostics' , some interpretations of Buddhism  etc . Life is dirty unclean and a fall from spirit and our main aim is to be apart from that and look to death and heaven for a good future ... or that life is primarily suffering and non existence is the bliss .  White school affirms and values life and the incarnation experience as valuable, celebrated and enjoyed  and a spiritual choice .

 

Some examples of Black Magic would be: to kill someone; to induce someone into becoming poor; to cause any kind of physical or mental harm to someone; to disrupt a marriage or a relashionship; to attract a particular lover who is not attracted back; to create money in order to have power over others.

 

" Be thou therefore prompt and active as the Sylphs, but avoid frivolity and caprice; be energetic and strong like the Salamanders, but avoid irritability and ferocity; be flexible and attentive to images like the Undines, but avoid idleness and changeability; be laborious and patient like the Gnomes, but avoid grossness and avarice.

20. So shalt thou gradually develop the powers of thy soul, and fit thyself to command the Spirits of the elements. For wert thou to summon the Gnomes to pander to thine avarice, thou wouldst no longer command them, but they would command thee. Wouldst thou abuse the pure beings of the woods and mountains to fill thy coffers and satisfy thy hunger of Gold? Wouldst thou debase the Spirits of Living Fire to serve thy wrath and hatred? Wouldst thou violate the purity of the Souls of the Waters to pander to thy lust of debauchery? Wouldst thou force the Spirits of the Evening Breeze to minister to thy folly and caprice? Know that with such desires thou canst but attract the Weak, not the Strong, and in that case the Weak will have power over thee."

 

 

 

The questions for you would be: can Black Magic produce the desired results? Have you ever seen any strong evidence that it indeed works? Maybe you saw it, or someone reliable told you so, I’d love to hear from you.

 

Yes it does and thats the strange thing  . I mean , people 'get away' with all sorts of 'evil ' .  and keep doing it .  Not that this justifies the personal damage they accrue .  But 'strange forces' are at work ... 'life' works in unusual ways ;  one eg.

Idi Amin , one of the worst evil monsters of our time probably survived the most assassination attempts ever , as if 'divine providence ' was protecting him . Once someone threw a hand grenade at him when he was standing up touring in the back of a jeep, waving to the populace .... he hand batted it back to the thrower  ,  like he was playing handball .  ???

 

and look how he ended up !   Dont make sense . 

 

Who is running this place ! ?

 

 

In simple terms: does it work really?

 

? 

 

 

Does any magic really work ?   How do we tell ?   My position is , you start with an intent  ... lets say to cure your friend . You do x  y z 'magic'  and they get better . To me , the 'getting better' is important , not whether the system works or not , it could have or a heap of other factors might have done it .

 

20 hours ago, Apotheose said:

 

From what I’ve seen in my life, white magi tend to not believe that Black Magic works. They often say either (i) it is entirely false or (ii) it can work against people who are very afraid of it, in a psychological “self-suggestive phenomenon”.

 

P.S.: by “black magic” I also do NOT mean Siddhis (clairevoyance, telepathy, telekinesis, mind reading, intuition etc.).

 

*EDIT*: correction of spelling and meaning, as my first language is not english.

 

So , where you from ?  

 

That can supply a significant  context  to frame the question in .

Where I come from  'magic' is often assumed to be 'black ' , by both the European and the indigenous . 

 

( and I dont know why my font size is all over the place today ? )

 

 

[Nungali]

21 hours ago, Neirong said:

Ah, the division between black and white is purely mundane and egoistic, and is mostly articulated by people who have no relation to magic tradition what so ever and are mostly cosplaying/roleplaying into magic.

Same events viewed from different perspective are seen differently. Two examples:

A person jumps under the fast speed train, gets smashed into paste, is the train evil?

 

Dude .... wot ?    That seems to have nothing to do with the question . let's stick with the train ... a person deliberately  pushes someone into the path of the train , is that evil ?

 

A person accidentally knocks someone into the path of the train , is that evil ?

 

and no I am not going to postulate on  whether a train is evil or not .... that might depend on the driver .

A person, lights a candlefire in the ocean depths, hoping to warm it/energize up for the benefit of all living beings, is that an act of good?

 

No , its an act of 'silly postulation' .
 

Magic certainly works. But it really takes a long training to develop a density and qualities of upper mental bodies. For most people, unfortunately they don't have neither the discipline, nor the patience to walk this path.

 

Pfft !  I agree with that BUT AS WELL , I seen people with such a magical inborn ability and  they done nuthin !  But they get delivery from a finger snap .

The results don't depend on wherever you do "good or bad", with knife you can do various things, it is just a tool.

 

The point isnt the knife or the train, the question is not about that   ... good or bad results  from what you DO  WITH the tool .  The question was  about that - good or bad magic - can bad magic work , not if magic ITSELF is good or bad .

 

[Sanity Check]

I think some elements of black magic trickled into pop culture and internet content. 

 

A youtuber I follow said those who have black magic cast on them have poor personal hygiene. Which I think is accurate. Probably the most legit observation I've seen or heard of about magic on the internet.

 

When I was a child a youth group pastor looked at me and say "oh, you're into magic, aren't you".

 

Later in high school a chemistry teacher said nearly word for word the same thing.

 

Shocked speechless both times. I never felt any desire to learn about tarot cards, use ouija boards, or do anything like that.

 

Till this day, I never read a book on magic, never studied it and as far as I know have never been around people who were the least bit interested in it.

 

Yet somehow, whatever little I have heard or know, I stumbled across accidentally. And for whatever reason, my accidental, seems like its a little more than average...

Edited January 19 by Sanity Check

[idquest]

On 17/01/2024 at 9:23 PM, Apotheose said:

I’d like to thank Neirong for the response.

 

However, I’d like to politely ask the forum to mention - in their responses - if they have ever seen real evidences of it. Maybe a reliable friend confirmed its legitimacy, or they saw it with their own eyes, or they even did it and succeeded in the effort of causing harm to others.

 

I don’t think theoretical responses would add much to the discussion, as there are authentic magi who believe it and authentic magi who don’t.

 

Thank you.  

 

What Hitler did to German people in 1930th is a good example of black magic. We don't exactly know what tool he used for that, but the result is well known.

 

Ultimately, it is the intent that defines magic is black or not. The same as technology and science. It is always intent. The older I get the more I'm a proponent of the idea that ethics and morale are the most important things to muster in life.

[Nungali]

A lot of people I have met that have an interest in Magick dont seem to worry about ethics .  I didnt encounter much teaching on that in the pagan stuff I got involved with .  However in the initiatory 'school' its a significant element  , a very significant one . But then my tradition is about one's development ... not about finding an easy way to manipulate others .

 

And that is why a lot do not make it through ... their desire to 'control others'  gets thwarted .