An Assortment of Golden Flower Questions

[zoe]

Hi, I'm posting roughly half&half for clarification and guidance in relation to Golden Flower. Kind of apparent from my previous posts, but for context my only interaction with Taoism outside of meandering this forum is mulling over a miscellaneous assortment of TTC translations and reading the Cleary translation of Golden Flower, although I have seen significant improvements in my understanding since I started referring to this commentary that was shared with me when I first joined the forum. I'll split my questions into ones of guidance and clarification:

clarification:
1. Are the various energies like Qi/Jing/etc. in Qi Gong etc. relevant (or necessary) to Golden Flower practice? And if the answer isn't exact is there any value to syncreticism between them? I have no familiarity at all with these things.
2. if not entirely irrelevant, is there some reading anyone could recommend to get me up to speed on the above matters?
3. Would you generally recommend just reading the I-Ching itself to get an understanding of its basic concepts (and if so, what translations are prefered)? Golden Flower references it a lot and I'm hoping I might get something out of understanding the context better.

guidance:
1. Has anyone had experience with antidepressants and Golden Flower practice? I was recently prescribed Welbutrin for seasonal depression which I take with my relatively low dose of Adderall for ADHD, I have certainly fallen off in my practice and spiritual/mental integrity to a considerable degree since around when I started it, although that (ironically) is also when an ice storm happened to completely ice over the place I live in and totally isolate everyone in their homes. So... who knows.

2. This is a problem I've always had honestly but In meditating I do begin to feel as the sign of verification in Golden Flower 6.2 is described after some time, but inevitably shortly after that point (but often earlier) I'll begin to get random inner monologue noise, dismissing it inevitably pulls my attention and if I fully quiet it it feels like the only thing left to silence is the minuscule amount of attention I have directed at clearing miscellaneous thoughts away, after that's gone I'll find that it stays quiet for a little bit but inevitably something will come up and this usually disorients me badly enough that I just feel like I have to give up for a while. How do I deal with this?

 

Additional note on that second question, just something I think is kind of neat: my problems with inner monologue have led me to start learning this language called Toki Pona (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toki_Pona), it's a language with only about 150 words that focuses on minimalism and not lending space in the language itself to negative concepts, to the greatest degree possible. I'm hoping that it may be easier to just switch inner monologue to this language which with its far more minimal design could end up being closer to non-lingual thought (and thereby closer to quietude, imo anyways), make inner monologue less prone to rising from angst, and just be easier to silence in general.

Edited January 19 by zoe

[Taoist Texts]

 

2 hours ago, zoe said:

1. Are the various energies like Qi/Jing/etc. in Qi Gong etc. relevant (or necessary) to Golden Flower practice? And if the answer isn't exact is there any value to syncreticism between them? I have no familiarity at all with these things.
2. if not entirely irrelevant, is there some reading anyone could recommend to get me up to speed on the above matters?
3. Would you generally recommend just reading the I-Ching itself to get an understanding of its basic concepts (and if so, what translations are prefered)? Golden Flower references it a lot and I'm hoping I might get something out of understanding the context better.

no, no and no. GF is self sufficient

2 hours ago, zoe said:

1. Has anyone had experience with antidepressants and Golden Flower practice?

as long as you are not under the influence medication does not matter

2 hours ago, zoe said:

How do I deal with this?

have to persevere, there is no other way (as long as there are no negative side effects)

 

[Nintendao]

Good journey! 

 

The Neiye is a classic about jing qi. IMO mostly all it says is "be calm."  This points to the de (of daodejing), or the way muddy water will become clear again if left in stillness, so the particles can settle out. Try to reach in and scoop the mud out, only stirs it back up, prolonging the process.

 

As for the I-Ching, a key takeaway is the details of the kan and li trigrams. Their imagery is of fire vs water, but the meaning is more about dispersal vs condensing. When the mind leaps out like flames, the central log turns to ash. Spend time pooling back together, to reflect the moonlight.

 

When distracting thoughts arise, just ask one question: Can you see the light? If yes, keep looking at it. If no, keep looking for it.

 

 

oh! and Toki Pona looks adorable  I want to try it 

[Maddie]

I think exercise and movement in general is good for the mood. My mood is always so much better after BJJ than before.  

[snowymountains]

56 minutes ago, Maddie said:

I think exercise and movement in general is good for the mood. My mood is always so much better after BJJ than before.  

 

endorphins ! all exercise does it but probs the more pronounced effect is via HIIT training

[Maddie]

15 minutes ago, snowymountains said:

 

endorphins ! all exercise does it but probs the more pronounced effect is via HIIT training

 

most cardio is boring, that's why I like BJJ lol. 

[snowymountains]

24 minutes ago, Maddie said:

 

most cardio is boring, that's why I like BJJ lol. 

 

Matter of taste 😀 - hiit and interval training in general is not exactly cardio btw, as is ie 10 km runs, though good cardio is needed.

[Maddie]

3 minutes ago, snowymountains said:

 

Matter of taste 😀 - hiit and interval training in general is not exactly cardio btw, as is ie 10 km runs, though good cardio is needed.

 

True. More accurately I should have said "I think cardio is boring, and prefer BJJ for cardio" lol

[snowymountains]

Just now, Maddie said:

 

True. More accurately I should have said "I think cardio is boring, and prefer BJJ for cardio" lol

 

HIIT programs are used a lot to train sprints typically, they aim to cultivate explosion, speed etc - of course a good baseline cardio is very much needed otherwise cardio is going to be the bottleneck.

 

There's not much strategy though like bjj nor that many techniques to practice, so some may find it boring.

 

In general, I'm a fan of minimalist approaches be it in sports, meditation or even work but others may want more variety.

[Maddie]

54 minutes ago, snowymountains said:

 

HIIT programs are used a lot to train sprints typically, they aim to cultivate explosion, speed etc - of course a good baseline cardio is very much needed otherwise cardio is going to be the bottleneck.

 

There's not much strategy though like bjj nor that many techniques to practice, so some may find it boring.

 

In general, I'm a fan of minimalist approaches be it in sports, meditation or even work but others may want more variety.

 

I've done HIIT before, but it was torture lol. 

[Mark Foote]

On 1/19/2024 at 12:35 PM, zoe said:

guidance:
 

2. This is a problem I've always had honestly but In meditating I do begin to feel as the sign of verification in Golden Flower 6.2 is described after some time, but inevitably shortly after that point (but often earlier) I'll begin to get random inner monologue noise, dismissing it inevitably pulls my attention and if I fully quiet it it feels like the only thing left to silence is the minuscule amount of attention I have directed at clearing miscellaneous thoughts away, after that's gone I'll find that it stays quiet for a little bit but inevitably something will come up and this usually disorients me badly enough that I just feel like I have to give up for a while. How do I deal with this?

 

 

Regarding "The Golden Flower":

 

Therefore, …take the backward step of turning the light and shining it back.
 

(Eihei Dogen, “Fukan zazengi” Tenpuku version, trans. Carl Bielefeldt, “Dogen’s Manuals of Zen Meditation”, pg 176)

 

There's a reference to that in "The Golden Flower".  Dogen predates"The Golden Flower" by half a millennia, but I'm sure he got it from earlier sources in China. 

If I feel as though I’m moving backward in space, I may suddenly have an acute sense of where my awareness is in my body, and that location may not be in my head.

Or, as I describe it in Waking Up and Falling Asleep:
 

Just before I fall asleep, my awareness can move very readily, and my sense of where I am tends to move with it. This is also true when I am waking up, although it can be harder to recognize (I tend to live through my eyes in the daytime, and associate my sense of place with them). When my awareness shifts readily, I realize that my ability to feel my location in space is made possible in part by the freedom of my awareness to move.
 

I sometimes overlook my location in space because I attach to what I’m feeling, or I’m averse to it, or I ignore it. The result is that I lose the freedom of my awareness to shift and move, and I have difficulty relaxing or staying alert. When I allow what I feel to enter into where I am, then my awareness remains free, and I can relax and keep my wits about me.

 

 

The "Golden Pill" or the pill of immortality, I would say is simply the one-pointedness of attention when necessity in the movement of breath places attention:

 

There can… come a moment when the movement of breath necessitates the placement of attention at a certain location in the body, or at a series of locations, with the ability to remain awake as the location of attention shifts retained through the exercise of presence.
 

(Common Ground)
 

That's the same "location of awareness" I referred to as the practice in waking up and falling asleep. 

Here's I. B. Horner's translation of the mindfulness of mind, in Gautama's way of living:

[One] trains [oneself], thinking: ‘I will breathe in… breathe out experiencing thought… rejoicing in thought… concentrating thought… freeing thought.’
 

Key thing there is that in order to detach from thought ("freeing thought"), at least an appreciation of thought is necessary, if not a rejoicing.  Arrive at a positive frame, then see about detachment.

My approach, bearing in mind one-pointedness depends on a necessity:
 

A central theme of Gautama’s teaching was the cessation of “determinate thought” (AN III 414) in action, meaning the cessation of the exercise of will or volition in action.  A cessation of the exercise of will could be attained, said Gautama, through the induction of various successive states of concentration. As to the initial induction of concentration, Gautama declared that “making self-surrender the object of thought, one lays hold of concentration, one lays hold of one-pointedness of mind”.
 

I begin with making the surrender of volition in activity related to the movement of breath the object of thought.  For me, that necessitates thought applied and sustained with regard to relaxation of the activity of the body, with regard to the exercise of calm in the stretch of ligaments, with regard to the detachment of mind, and with regard to the presence of mind.  I find that a presence of mind from one breath to the next can precipitate “one-pointedness of mind”, but laying hold of “one-pointedness of mind” requires a surrender of willful activity in the body much like falling asleep.

(Response to “Not the Wind, Not the Flag”)

 

 

 

 

Edited January 21 by Mark Foote

[Nintendao]

4 hours ago, Maddie said:

exercise and movement in general is good for the mood

 

Truth! In this modern age usually the day-to-day cooking and cleaning does not require enough chopping wood and carrying water to exhaust the yang phase. If sitting quietly reaches the point of diminishing returns too quickly, give a try to the ancient and powerful gong illustrated here:

 

[Mark Foote]

4 hours ago, Maddie said:

 

most cardio is boring, that's why I like BJJ lol. 

 

 

Got a second brown in judo in high school, and I couldn't agree more that it's the best exercise! 

Also, I've had two incidents of falling in my senior years, here.  The first I rolled out of, the second was on the slick floor of a laundromat and I actually slapped the laundromat floor as I was laid out full length.  Amazing sensation to match the force of the fall, and have nothing hurt when I got  up, not even my forearm.

Everybody should learn how to fall, and how to practice balance with another person, IMHO.

[Mark Foote]

5 minutes ago, Nintendao said:

 

Truth! In this modern age usually the day-to-day cooking and cleaning does not require enough chopping wood and carrying water to exhaust the yang phase. If sitting quietly reaches the point of diminishing returns too quickly, give a try to the ancient and powerful gong illustrated here:

 

Couldn't agree more about dance.

But I will disagree about the meaning of drawing water and chopping wood.
 

Miraculous power and marvelous activity
Drawing water and chopping wood.
 

(Pangyun, a lay Zen practitioner, eight century C.E.)
 

 

Cleave a (piece of) wood, I am there;
lift up the stone and you will find Me there.
 

(The Gospel According to Thomas, pg 43 log. 77, ©1959 E. J. Brill)

[Nintendao]

9 minutes ago, Mark Foote said:

 

Miraculous power and marvelous activity
Drawing water and chopping wood.
 

 

Well sure for you zen masters  just picking up a spoon or laughing at a squirrel may in harmony with the movement of heaven and earth, imbue such gusto to within the span of a single breath, subtly dancing along at light speed.

[zoe]

7 hours ago, Nintendao said:

When distracting thoughts arise, just ask one question: Can you see the light? If yes, keep looking at it. If no, keep looking for it.

That's a fairly pragmatic tip, I think it'll be helpful.

honestly a big part of my problem is that I have an extremely active inner monologue and it can't help but jump out and ramble on about even the smallest sensation, it's hard to explain but it's like a voice that exists precursory to thought instead of relying on it though because in quietude it'll just start making a vague kind of mental "noise" that I can't adequately describe, it's not noise like white noise but rather like speaking without actual information or words involved, I can't even imagine how I would get it to stop. What ends up happening during meditation is that I'll experience a moment of quietude before it starts making the "noise", inevitably that brings a very very small amount of attention towards it which constitutes enough "thought" for it to have something to say at which point it will basically start rambling about TSTGF passages and actively describe my mental state, I can try to dismiss the thoughts it is reading out but it'll just keep making noise. It just doesn't go away, if I'm being honest I don't think it's ever been quiet for longer than a few seconds in my life, discounting moments where I was physically speaking or reading/writing something.

 

 

[Nintendao]

59 minutes ago, zoe said:

inner monologue

 

Instead of silencing it, you can try overriding it. Do you know any mantra/chants/prayers? Some prefer counting forwards or backwards. It can be sync with the breath too. For example count 1 to 5 during inhalation, and 5 to 1 during exhalations.

[Maddie]

5 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

 

 

Got a second brown in judo in high school, and I couldn't agree more that it's the best exercise! 

Also, I've had two incidents of falling in my senior years, here.  The first I rolled out of, the second was on the slick floor of a laundromat and I actually slapped the laundromat floor as I was laid out full length.  Amazing sensation to match the force of the fall, and have nothing hurt when I got  up, not even my forearm.

Everybody should learn how to fall, and how to practice balance with another person, IMHO.

 

That's cool (Judo 🥋 not falling) do you ever still train? 

 

I know Qigong is pretty popular here and I'm not knocking it but personally I get more out of martial arts.

[zoe]

4 hours ago, Nintendao said:

 

Instead of silencing it, you can try overriding it. Do you know any mantra/chants/prayers? Some prefer counting forwards or backwards. It can be sync with the breath too. For example count 1 to 5 during inhalation, and 5 to 1 during exhalations.

I could definitely do that, if I could compare it to anything it would be like with a monophonic synth where there's only a single voice and "voice stealing" occurs when another tone is played. Although- generally TSTGF advocates for silence so I question if mantras are valid in the context of Golden Flower meditation but I guess it's worth trying, particularly if it allows for a deeper quietude than without it. Do you have any recommendations for mantras?

[Maddie]

1 hour ago, zoe said:

 Do you have any recommendations for mantras?

 

What would you want the mantra to do for you?

[snowymountains]

3 hours ago, Maddie said:

 

That's cool (Judo 🥋 not falling) 

 

Judo also has a lot of ground fighting, not as much as bjj of course, ie competitive judo doesn't (or at least didn't) have leglocks.

 

Keep in mind that before bjj because popular, wrestling, judo in the West where the only games in town for both stand up and ground wrestling & grappling - speaking of combat sports, couldn't get into traditional systems without sparring and competitions, imo they sucked 😁

[Maddie]

4 hours ago, snowymountains said:

 

Judo also has a lot of ground fighting, not as much as bjj of course, ie competitive judo doesn't (or at least didn't) have leglocks.

 

Keep in mind that before bjj because popular, wrestling, judo in the West where the only games in town for both stand up and ground wrestling & grappling - speaking of combat sports, couldn't get into traditional systems without sparring and competitions, imo they sucked 😁

 

You're right lol, but even though I do Brazilian jujitsu I don't think traditional martial arts suck. I think the problem is that they don't pressure test realistically. They don't spar realistically. Bruce Lee said you can't learn to swim on dry land. You can't learn to fight if you don't fight. Whenever someone takes a traditional martial art and pressure tests it like Lyoto Machida did with karate and make the necessary adaptations it works.

 

 If on the other hand if one day for some reason BJJ said we're not going to actually grapple with people anymore we're going to just do the movements in the air like we're grappling. BJJ would start sucking really quickly lol. What makes things like BJJ and wrestling and boxing stand out as effective is that they train realistically.

 

  This is basically what happened with Tai chi. It's actually a grappling art with throws and takedowns but at some point they stopped actually throwing and taking down people and started doing the movements in the air and then for some reason decided if you do this you'll get super powers. That's some kids playing Harry Potter on the playground crap if I ever saw it lol.

 

  I tried to the best of my ability to take the pressure testing mentality of MMA and realistic martial arts into everything such as philosophy and religion as well. That's why if someone on here is suggesting their method and they seem like a relatively emotionally and mentally mature and well adjusted person I might take note. On the other hand if they're recommending a system and they seem reactive and emotionally immature this does not show that their method works and I will ignore it. It's a good mentality to bring into everything in life. That's what I liked about MMA, you cut through the BS to see if things are real by applying them realistically.

Edited January 22 by Maddie

[snowymountains]

6 minutes ago, Maddie said:

 

You're right lol, but even though I do Brazilian jujitsu I don't think traditional martial arts suck. I think the problem is that they don't pressure test realistically. They don't spar realistically. Bruce Lee said you can't learn to swim on dry land. You can't learn to fight if you don't fight. Whenever someone takes a traditional martial art and pressure tests it like Lyoto Machida did with karate and make the necessary adaptations it works.

 

 If on the other hand if one day for some reason BJJ said we're not going to actually grapple with people anymore we're going to just do the movements in the air like we're grappling. BJJ would start sucking really quickly lol. What makes things like BJJ and wrestling and boxing stand out as effective is that they train realistically.

 

  This is basically what happened with Tai chi. It's actually a grappling art with throws and takedowns but at some point they stopped actually throwing and taking down people and started doing the movements in the air and then for some reason decided if you do this you'll get super powers. That's some kids playing Harry Potter on the playground crap if I ever saw it lol.

 

  I tried to the best of my ability to take the pressure testing mentality of MMA and realistic martial arts into everything such as philosophy and religion as well. That's why if someone on here is suggesting their method and they seem like a relatively emotionally and mentally mature and well adjusted person I might take note. On the other hand if they're recommending a system and they seem reactive and emotionally immature this does not show that their method works and I will ignore it. It's a good mentality to bring into everything in life. That's what I liked about MMA, you cut through the BS to see if things are real by applying them realistically.

 

Imagine if someone wanted to train for running but in their training they didn't run. Instead they only did some exercises they perceived would make them better runners, but no actual running...

[Maddie]

1 minute ago, snowymountains said:

 

Imagine if someone wanted to train for running but in their training they didn't run. Instead they only did some exercises they perceived would make them better runners, but no actual running...

 

They train for running by waving pink ribbons around in the air and then after a while they tell people if you do this you will develop super powers and can shoot lightning out of your fingers and live forever. 😂🤭

[snowymountains]

6 minutes ago, Maddie said:

 

shoot lightning out of your fingers and live forever. 😂🤭

 Of course it's absolutely possible ! don't be silly now 😁