An Assortment of Golden Flower Questions

[Maddie]

1 minute ago, snowymountains said:

 Of course it's absolutely possible ! don't be silly now 😁

 

And don't let the fact that you never actually seen it demonstrated stop you from believing lol 🤭😉🦄

[snowymountains]

5 minutes ago, Maddie said:

 

And don't let the fact that you never actually seen it demonstrated stop you from believing lol 🤭😉🦄

 

But renowned historian John Carpenter shot a whole documentary on this 😁 Kim Cattrall was a central witness 😁

[Maddie]

Just now, snowymountains said:

 

But renowned historian John Carpenter shot a whole documentary on this 😁 Kim Cattrall was a central witness 😁

 

Well there you have it. If it's on video it must be true, no way you can fake anything on video 🧐

[snowymountains]

5 minutes ago, Maddie said:

 

Well there you have it. If it's on video it must be true, no way you can fake anything on video 🧐

 

You seriously haven't watched this ? 😲No 80s classics education 😁

[Mark Foote]

11 hours ago, snowymountains said:

 

Judo also has a lot of ground fighting, not as much as bjj of course, ie competitive judo doesn't (or at least didn't) have leglocks.
 

 

Judo Leglocks

by M. Kawaishi

https://judoinfo.com/leglocks/

[Mark Foote]

 

 

12 hours ago, snowymountains said:

 

Judo also has a lot of ground fighting, not as much as bjj of course, ie competitive judo doesn't (or at least didn't) have leglocks.

 

Keep in mind that before bjj because popular, wrestling, judo in the West where the only games in town for both stand up and ground wrestling & grappling - speaking of combat sports, couldn't get into traditional systems without sparring and competitions, imo they sucked 😁

Ok, apart from the leglocks... yer right, Judo does have a lot of ground fighting,  They're both derived from ju-jitsu, although only BJJ has ju-jitsu in the name.  Ju-jitsu has strikes and kicks, I did six months of ju-jitsu in high school along with the judo--nasty strikes, like finger-tips to the trachea.  

The sparring was the best part of judo, and the competitions were a chance to see what was real, outside the dojo.  

When I was learning the art, it was generally acknowledged that the Japanese won their matches standing, mostly with left-side uchimata, and the Europeans and Americans couldn't wait to take their opponent to the mat, where they mostly won by grappling.

I was able to spar with the sixth dan high school champion of Japan when I was in college.  What a privilege.  Spar is maybe not the right term--I was able to experience the effortless beauty of his technique, over and over. 

They did wrestle in Japan--the sixth dan had a cauliflower ear.  Glad I never got into it like that, although maybe the experience was worth the disfigurement.

I still have the sweep, that was the throw of my teacher, an unusual one.  He used to win sumo matches in Hawaii by diving past his opponent and sweeping the guy's feet out from under him.  The opponent would hit the ground before my teacher did, a win in sumo for my teacher.

Still, to me the most important art of self-defense is relinquishing activity to a one-pointedness that incorporates others through the extension of compassion.

 

 

[Mark Foote]

16 hours ago, Maddie said:

 

That's cool (Judo 🥋 not falling) do you ever still train? 

 

I know Qigong is pretty popular here and I'm not knocking it but personally I get more out of martial arts.
 

No, not training.  I tried to find another judo dojo when I first arrived in San Francisco--there was a good one out in the avenues, lots of guys from Japan--but it was too much, with my work (evenings, as a dishwasher) and the bus ride.  Tried to partake of Aikido as well, but strained something in my ankle sitting seiza.  So I mostly just attended the S. F. Zen Center practice, I was their volunteer door-person for short while, a couple of evenings a week (sit by the door facing out, and stop the occasionally crazy who tried to sneak into the building by the zendo door for purposes other than practice).

Still working to properly incorporate the zazen that gets up and walks around into my daily life, first had that experience in 1975 and I think it ruined me as far as having a "normal" life.  That's ok, who among the Dao Bums has a "normal" life, ha ha!  Only now coming to terms (so to speak) with that zazen, through some of Gautama's teachings in the Pali sermons.

The acupuncturist who practices BJJ, sounds like a great life to me.  I wish you well (and snowymountains too).

[snowymountains]

47 minutes ago, Mark Foote said:

 

Judo Leglocks

by M. Kawaishi

https://judoinfo.com/leglocks/

 

they're not allowed in competition.

[Mark Foote]

21 hours ago, zoe said:

 

honestly a big part of my problem is that I have an extremely active inner monologue and it can't help but jump out and ramble on about even the smallest sensation, it's hard to explain but it's like a voice that exists precursory to thought instead of relying on it though because in quietude it'll just start making a vague kind of mental "noise" that I can't adequately describe, it's not noise like white noise but rather like speaking without actual information or words involved, I can't even imagine how I would get it to stop. What ends up happening during meditation is that I'll experience a moment of quietude before it starts making the "noise", inevitably that brings a very very small amount of attention towards it which constitutes enough "thought" for it to have something to say at which point it will basically start rambling about TSTGF passages and actively describe my mental state, I can try to dismiss the thoughts it is reading out but it'll just keep making noise. It just doesn't go away, if I'm being honest I don't think it's ever been quiet for longer than a few seconds in my life, discounting moments where I was physically speaking or reading/writing something.

 

 

Again, I would recommend keeping a presence of mind with your location in space, as you fall asleep:

 

There can… come a moment when the movement of breath necessitates the placement of attention at a certain location in the body, or at a series of locations, with the ability to remain awake as the location of attention shifts retained through the exercise of presence.
 

(Common Ground)

Just before you fall asleep, exercise enough presence to allow the placement of attention to shift and move. 

Here's the way humbleone described his experience:

 

I woke up at 4:30 AM. After a quick drink of water, I returned to bed and tried your practice.
 

I hope I did it correctly, I was somewhat surprised that my mind moved around quite a bit. Not fast, but in slow motion the awareness would shift, from left cheek to right side of torso etc.. The end result was a light sleep state, but I was glued to the bed and then woke up exactly at 6AM, feeling refreshed like I had a complete 8 hours of sleep.

 

 

Once you have a feeling for the one-pointed placement of attention that moves, you can work sitting and standing to find the ligaments that control reciprocal innervation in the lower body and along the spine, through relaxation, and through calming the stretch of ligaments.  From the Golden Flower:

 

I find that the concentration that lends itself to practice in the moment is dependent on the tendency toward the free placement of attention.  Stick with the placement of attention out of necessity experienced in the movement of breath, let the placement shift and move, see how the thoughts behave:
 

So, when you practice zazen, your mind should be concentrated in your breathing and this kind of activity is the fundamental activity of the universal being. If so, how you should use your mind is quite clear. Without this experience, or this practice, it is impossible to attain the absolute freedom.
 

(“Thursday Morning Lectures”, November 4th 1965, Los Altos; emphasis added)

 

 

Your mileage may vary, Zoe, I'm not dealing with what you're dealing with!


 

Edited January 22 by Mark Foote

[Mark Foote]

21 minutes ago, snowymountains said:

 

they're not allowed in competition.
 

Right you are, and thanks for drawing that to my attention.  You're right, I never heard them mentioned in any dojo I ever attended, but I just assumed they existed (which they do).  I was taught the armlocks (which were not allowed below the black belt level of competition, at the time) and the basic choke (won a point on that, once).

No wonder the leglocks were abandoned, as part of the "gentle way":

The object of the leglocks is to bring about sprain or dislocation of the knee or ankle which compels the opponent to surrender. The Sprain is a rent of the ligaments of the joint; the Dislocation defines a durable displacement of the articular extremities, properly speaking.

(from the source previously linked)

 

 

[zoe]

15 hours ago, Maddie said:

 

What would you want the mantra to do for you?

I suppose all it really needs to do is just block out headvoice noise.

 

1 hour ago, Mark Foote said:

Again, I would recommend keeping a presence of mind with your location in space, as you fall asleep:

Re-read your earlier post and found it much easier to parse this time, I was very tired yesterday and kind of skimmed it. I feel like this is an experiential explanation that clicks pretty well with my understanding so thank you, I'll try your recommendations. This is a very satisfying progression because awareness as something that can be targeted is something I was never able to intuitively understand until very recently, so I'm grateful to have some concepts for interacting with that.

Edited January 22 by zoe
grammar

[Maddie]

31 minutes ago, zoe said:

I suppose all it really needs to do is just block out headvoice noise..

 

Then any mantra would work for this. 

[Nintendao]

Can't go wrong with the classic

 

[snowymountains]

On 1/19/2024 at 9:35 PM, zoe said:

Hi, I'm posting roughly half&half for clarification and guidance in relation to Golden Flower. Kind of apparent from my previous posts, but for context my only interaction with Taoism outside of meandering this forum is mulling over a miscellaneous assortment of TTC translations and reading the Cleary translation of Golden Flower, although I have seen significant improvements in my understanding since I started referring to this commentary that was shared with me when I first joined the forum. I'll split my questions into ones of guidance and clarification:

clarification:
1. Are the various energies like Qi/Jing/etc. in Qi Gong etc. relevant (or necessary) to Golden Flower practice? And if the answer isn't exact is there any value to syncreticism between them? I have no familiarity at all with these things.
2. if not entirely irrelevant, is there some reading anyone could recommend to get me up to speed on the above matters?
3. Would you generally recommend just reading the I-Ching itself to get an understanding of its basic concepts (and if so, what translations are prefered)? Golden Flower references it a lot and I'm hoping I might get something out of understanding the context better.

guidance:
1. Has anyone had experience with antidepressants and Golden Flower practice? I was recently prescribed Welbutrin for seasonal depression which I take with my relatively low dose of Adderall for ADHD, I have certainly fallen off in my practice and spiritual/mental integrity to a considerable degree since around when I started it, although that (ironically) is also when an ice storm happened to completely ice over the place I live in and totally isolate everyone in their homes. So... who knows.

2. This is a problem I've always had honestly but In meditating I do begin to feel as the sign of verification in Golden Flower 6.2 is described after some time, but inevitably shortly after that point (but often earlier) I'll begin to get random inner monologue noise, dismissing it inevitably pulls my attention and if I fully quiet it it feels like the only thing left to silence is the minuscule amount of attention I have directed at clearing miscellaneous thoughts away, after that's gone I'll find that it stays quiet for a little bit but inevitably something will come up and this usually disorients me badly enough that I just feel like I have to give up for a while. How do I deal with this?

 

Additional note on that second question, just something I think is kind of neat: my problems with inner monologue have led me to start learning this language called Toki Pona (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toki_Pona), it's a language with only about 150 words that focuses on minimalism and not lending space in the language itself to negative concepts, to the greatest degree possible. I'm hoping that it may be easier to just switch inner monologue to this language which with its far more minimal design could end up being closer to non-lingual thought (and thereby closer to quietude, imo anyways), make inner monologue less prone to rising from angst, and just be easier to silence in general.

 

Having gone off track with Judo before, I'll take a take on some questions, though not a practitioner of golden flower.

 

1. Re medication, consult the doctor who prescribed it. In general terms meditation is not bad, it often does raise dopamine though and in some cases that is not good, eg in some PTSD cases it's not recommended.The only one you can discuss this with is your doctor, don't listen to anyone in internet forums, including yours truly, listen only to your doctor.

 There's also the specifics of the meditation that you practice, if you feel it conflicts the meds, then again discuss with your doctor.

 

2. EDIT: as your psy has now confirmed the point from 1. above can be the case, that rising dopamine levels from meditation could be bad for you or could be conflicting the meds, I am removing the meditation instructions for minimising distractions as these lead to longer meditation times and therefore higher levels of dopamine.

Edited February 9 by snowymountains

[thelerner]

No experience w/ antidepressants and the Golden Flower, other then the standard advice that if things get strange, dark, or hot.. slow down or even consider taking a break (weeks, months) from your practice.  It'll still be there later when you're more centered. 

 

This is advice I had to take myself doing a practice as benign as Zhan Zhang.  I was doing it facing the afternoon sun for a few weeks and during one session things got strange and hot.  So I backed off. 

[zoe]

On 1/30/2024 at 2:08 PM, thelerner said:

No experience w/ antidepressants and the Golden Flower, other then the standard advice that if things get strange, dark, or hot.. slow down or even consider taking a break (weeks, months) from your practice.  It'll still be there later when you're more centered. 

 

This is advice I had to take myself doing a practice as benign as Zhan Zhang.  I was doing it facing the afternoon sun for a few weeks and during one session things got strange and hot.  So I backed off. 

quite a late reply but- I actually got off of them fairly quickly, they inflicted me with a really weird dissociation that I haven't had since much worst times.

 

On 1/30/2024 at 1:00 PM, snowymountains said:

eg in some PTSD cases it's not recommended..

^ yeah psych said this, she seems to think that's why it probably didn't go well. Coincidentally though the weather has been getting less awful and in addition to cultivation practices it's made me feel alright enough to pass on trying other antidepressants for now. Ty for the meditation techniques, I'll look into them.

[Maddie]

6 minutes ago, zoe said:

quite a late reply but- I actually got off of them fairly quickly, they inflicted me with a really weird dissociation that I haven't had since much worst times.

 

^ yeah psych said this, she seems to think that's why it probably didn't go well. Coincidentally though the weather has been getting less awful and in addition to cultivation practices it's made me feel alright enough to pass on trying other antidepressants for now. Ty for the meditation techniques, I'll look into them.

 

Hey Zoe how are you doing? :-)

[snowymountains]

22 minutes ago, zoe said:

^ yeah psych said this, she seems to think that's why it probably didn't go well. Coincidentally though the weather has been getting less awful and in addition to cultivation practices it's made me feel alright enough to pass on trying other antidepressants for now. Ty for the meditation techniques, I'll look into them.

 

Imo if your psy recommend against it, don't do it, including the meditation techniques I wrote above 🙂, especially if it's because they don't recommend raising dopamine levels.

 

The sequence I described above is fairly standard process to minimise distractions. However as you will be in meditation for a longer time, it will raise dopamine more long term.

 

What I'd recommend instead is to discuss your meditation routine with your psy. If they don't approve meditation, then don't meditate at all.

 

The only chance to be able to meditate is to get to a point where dopamine rising won't be an issue and only your psy can get you to that point.

 

 

[snowymountains]

Actually even thought I first said about dopamine & PTSD and discussing with your psy, it was wrong of me to follow up with meditation instructions for distractions.

Probably it's the last time I ever type meditation instructions in these forums, exactly because they may be used in a wrong context.

 

Please don't do them, your psy has now confirmed concerns on dopamine levels and all I can say is that when there are concerns on dopamine levels, the only valid instruction is don't raise dopamine.

 

EDIT: I have now removed the meditation instructions from my previous post, because dopamine level concerns have now been confirmed.

Edited February 9 by snowymountains

[zoe]

On 2/8/2024 at 4:02 PM, snowymountains said:

 

Imo if your psy recommend against it, don't do it, including the meditation techniques I wrote above 🙂, especially if it's because they don't recommend raising dopamine levels.

 

The sequence I described above is fairly standard process to minimise distractions. However as you will be in meditation for a longer time, it will raise dopamine more long term.

 

What I'd recommend instead is to discuss your meditation routine with your psy. If they don't approve meditation, then don't meditate at all.

 

The only chance to be able to meditate is to get to a point where dopamine rising won't be an issue and only your psy can get you to that point.

 

 

Sorry that I wasn't clear- I meant to imply that I've quit Welbutrin, my psych agreed that it doesn't seem to do me much good. I think the dopaminergic stuff is a bit more complicated though- I also take adderall and it's definitely a significant net positive for me. Similarly- to infer the dopaminergic effects of meditation (which aren't terribly consistent or well understood, no?) and then assume they may negatively impact me because I have some CPTSD is a pretty extreme leap to make, and quite reductionist in that it disregards any outweighing benefits meditation may have. At any rate, my psych is pretty unipinionated on meditation and the Golden Flower meditation I've partook in has been extremely beneficial to me, despite the occasional roadblocks.

 

On 2/8/2024 at 3:37 PM, Maddie said:

 

Hey Zoe how are you doing? :-)

Pretty alright. I'm doing better with my art stuff across the board (that is to say, considering software dev and the other weird creative-adjacent shit I partake in), somewhat appropriately I can't really convey how this correlates with my cultivation practices in any way that feels especially meaningful but there definitely is something there. Treating the "medicine" of TSoGF as a sort of well for creative energy works, somehow. As I'm sure you've guessed, that's an extreme reduction lol.

[snowymountains]

9 hours ago, zoe said:

Sorry that I wasn't clear- I meant to imply that I've quit Welbutrin, my psych agreed that it doesn't seem to do me much good. I think the dopaminergic stuff is a bit more complicated though- I also take adderall and it's definitely a significant net positive for me. Similarly- to infer the dopaminergic effects of meditation (which aren't terribly consistent or well understood, no?) and then assume they may negatively impact me because I have some CPTSD is a pretty extreme leap to make, and quite reductionist in that it disregards any outweighing benefits meditation may have. At any rate, my psych is pretty unipinionated on meditation and the Golden Flower meditation I've partook in has been extremely beneficial to me, despite the occasional roadblocks.

 

It's typically post-ante that it can be evaluated, for some PTSD cases it isnt harmful, in others it is. Which is why it's important your psy is aware.

 

As long as your psy is aware, you go exactly with what your psy says, especially anything related to the medication treatment, nobody from the internet can (nor should) opine on that.

 

I gather your psy is aware and is not objecting to meditating, so I will rewrite steps for reducing distractions below,

 

1. Boxed breathing ( just a few mins ) - to calm down the nervous system. If you feel a need to calm down you can extend the exhale by a tiny bit.

 

2. One of the four immeasurables meditations - to reduce distractions from emotions. If you're not aware of which of the four is suited for which emotion, just do Metta.

 

3. Meditation on breath, eg first 3-4 steps on Anapanasati ( from the first tetrad ) - to calm the mind and reduce distractions from thoughts.

 

4. Your main meditation 

 

If you feel excess energy before you start meditation. You can do a bit of walking meditation before you start 1-4.

 

Also if you know eg it's always  thoughts and never emotions that distract you, you can of course do only 3. and then 4.

 

Keep in mind that extra steps of course require extra meditation time, if that changes anything with respect to how you feel, discuss with your psy.

 

I'd say keep a diary with the times you meditate per day, so that you can later evaluate if more meditation helps or not.

 

Best of luck !

Edited February 17 by snowymountains

[Maddie]

12 hours ago, zoe said:

Sorry that I wasn't clear- I meant to imply that I've quit Welbutrin, my psych agreed that it doesn't seem to do me much good. I think the dopaminergic stuff is a bit more complicated though- I also take adderall and it's definitely a significant net positive for me. Similarly- to infer the dopaminergic effects of meditation (which aren't terribly consistent or well understood, no?) and then assume they may negatively impact me because I have some CPTSD is a pretty extreme leap to make, and quite reductionist in that it disregards any outweighing benefits meditation may have. At any rate, my psych is pretty unipinionated on meditation and the Golden Flower meditation I've partook in has been extremely beneficial to me, despite the occasional roadblocks.

 

Pretty alright. I'm doing better with my art stuff across the board (that is to say, considering software dev and the other weird creative-adjacent shit I partake in), somewhat appropriately I can't really convey how this correlates with my cultivation practices in any way that feels especially meaningful but there definitely is something there. Treating the "medicine" of TSoGF as a sort of well for creative energy works, somehow. As I'm sure you've guessed, that's an extreme reduction lol.

 

I'm just glad you are doing better! :-)

[old3bob]

I'd suggest taking a read on some of Dr. Peter Breggins material concerning the potential or actual dangers of so-called anti-depressants!  He is on the internet...

Edited February 17 by old3bob

[zoe]

On 2/17/2024 at 7:49 AM, Maddie said:

 

I'm just glad you are doing better! :-)

me too, just can't wait for mid-spring to be here tbh.
 

On 2/17/2024 at 8:26 AM, old3bob said:

I'd suggest taking a read on some of Dr. Peter Breggins material concerning the potential or actual dangers of so-called anti-depressants!  He is on the internet...

as I see it, all they do is tweak the way the brain balances chemical transmitters a bit- antidepressants in particular are very long acting taking a relatively long time to start fully working, and taking a relatively long time to wear off. So if a particular antidepressant doesn't nudge the balance of someones brains' chemicals in a direction that helps they're just going to feel perpetually off, imho that is a big part of their negative perception. When one of these makes a person feel worst the way they feel worst tends to be subtle but constantly omnipresent, which makes it easy to see how people that have bad experiences with them see them as strictly bad, with drugs that have shorter action you take them and then they wear off but with something like an antidepressant the days or weeks you have to wait after stopping feel uncanny. Personally, Welbutrin made me feel soulless and dissociated. It felt like my consciousness was so frail that I couldn't exert the mental will to interact with myself internally, at all. I've dealt with much more severe substance induced psychosis though (... you guessed it, largely from things with strong dopaminergic effects, lol) and was able to keep levelheaded as I waited a few days for it to get out of my system. But I can really see how someone who isn't as well acquainted with their own head would take an experience like that as a borderline spiritual encounter with evil. :shrug:

[old3bob]

a few days is not a  long time...and a nudge for some can act like a push over a cliff, and how many thousands of dead point that out?

I don't know but far more than a few.