alchemy How does it work?

[ChiDragon]

29 minutes ago, Mark Foote said:

Using Google translate, which may or may not be accurate, I find the following points salient:

 

If the mind is not relaxed, the nature will be fixed. If the form is not labored, it will be perfect. If the gods do not disturb you, the elixir will be knotted. ... It can be said that you never leave the house.

 

Please do not use google translation for classic text. It was not make for that. I tried that at first too. It turns out to be not making any sense at all.

Edited January 31 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

30 minutes ago, snowymountains said:

 

This is interesting, what is the textual reference?

 

This sounds rather similar to the standard stages in several meditation traditions, in text above each stage is linked to a daoist alchemy concept.

That is what we will get from all the Taoist texts. They are just copies of the basic concept.

[Taoist Texts]

6 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

Using Google translate, which may or may not be accurate, I find the following points salient:

 

If the mind is not relaxed, the nature will be fixed. If the form is not labored, it will be perfect. If the gods do not disturb you, the elixir will be knotted. ... It can be said that you never leave the house.

just FYI since your wondered

On 5/22/2016 at 5:58 AM, Taoist Texts said:

If the heart would not rush then the nature will be stable, if the body is not belabored then the semen will be whole. If the spirit is not bothered then the elixir will incept...  This can be called ‘not exiting the yard obtain the marvelous Dao’.

[Mark Foote]

6 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

Please do not use google translation for classic text. It was not make for that. I tried that at first too. It turns out to be not making any sense at all.
 

 

It made sense to me.  At least, some of it did!  

[ChiDragon]

12 minutes ago, Mark Foote said:

 

It made sense to me.  At least, some of it did!  

Not if you also understand Chinese. The translation is saying the opposite of the original text.

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

3 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

Not if you also understand Chinese. The translation is saying the opposite of the original text.

Ah are you fluent?

[Sleepy Bluejay]

10 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

Using Google translate, which may or may not be accurate, I find the following points salient:

 

If the mind is not relaxed, the nature will be fixed. If the form is not labored, it will be perfect. If the gods do not disturb you, the elixir will be knotted. ... It can be said that you never leave the house.

 

 

I also partly agree with the post by Nintendao:

 

"If the mind is not relaxed, the nature will be fixed."  Gautama spoke of a "station of consciousness":
 

That which we will…, and that which we intend to do and that wherewithal we are occupied:–this becomes an object for the persistance of consciousness. The object being there, there comes to be a station of consciousness. Consciousness being stationed and growing, rebirth of renewed existence takes place in the future, and here from birth, decay, and death, grief, lamenting, suffering, sorrow, and despair come to pass. Such is the uprising of this mass of ill.
 

Even if we do not will, or intend to do, and yet are occupied with something, this too becomes an object for the persistance of consciousness… whence birth… takes place.
 

But if we neither will, nor intend to do, nor are occupied about something, there is no becoming of an object for the persistance of consciousness. The object being absent, there comes to be no station of consciousness. Consciousness not being stationed and growing, no rebirth of renewed existence takes place in the future, and herefrom birth, decay-and-death, grief, lamenting, suffering, sorrow and despair cease. Such is the ceasing of this entire mass of ill.
 

(SN II 65, Pali Text Society SN Vol II pg 45)

 

My approach:

 

Just before I fall asleep, my awareness can move very readily, and my sense of where I am tends to move with it. This is also true when I am waking up, although it can be harder to recognize (I tend to live through my eyes in the daytime, and associate my sense of place with them). When my awareness shifts readily, I realize that my ability to feel my location in space is made possible in part by the freedom of my awareness to move.
 

I sometimes overlook my location in space because I attach to what I’m feeling, or I’m averse to it, or I ignore it. The result is that I lose the freedom of my awareness to shift and move, and I have difficulty relaxing or staying alert. When I allow what I feel to enter into where I am, then my awareness remains free, and I can relax and keep my wits about me.

(Waking Up and Falling Asleep)

 

 

That's similar to the approach in lucid dreaming--a presence of mind must be retained in the moments before falling asleep, but unlike lucid dreaming, the idea here is to discover the placement of attention by necessity in the movement of breath, and retain a presence of mind with that placement as the placement shifts and moves.

The necessity may be in the movement of breath itself, or with regard to support for the structure of the spine in the movement of breath.  Actually, the necessity may even be coming from perceptions of things beyond the conscious boundaries of the senses, but that's another topic.

On "the elixir will be knotted"--I recently outlined "the scales" of my practice, on my site--note that the attention placed by necessity in the movement of breath has a singular location, a "one-pointedness":
 

... the scales are:  looking for a grip where attention takes place in the body, as “one-pointedness” turns and engenders a counter-turn (without losing the freedom of movement of attention); finding ligaments that control reciprocal innervation in the lower body and along the spine through relaxation, and calming the stretch of ligaments; and discovering hands, feet, and teeth together with “one-pointedness” (“bite through here”, as Yuanwu advised; “then we can walk together hand in hand”, as Yuanwu’s teacher Wu Tsu advised).

 

 

When the necessity of the moment becomes the relaxation of muscles in the lower abdomen and the calming of the stretch of ligaments in the lower body, especially at the sacroiliac joints, there can be a sensation for which "knotted" is a colorful description.

As to "It can be said that you never leave the house".  Gautama spoke about four initial stages of concentration--I describe the way I experience the first three above, in my description of "scales" (like musical scales).  As to the fourth:

 

The flow of “doing something” in the body, of activity initiated by habit or volition, ceases in the fourth concentration.  Instead, activity is generated purely by the placement of attention, and the location of attention can flow.

 

Again, a [person], putting away ease… enters and abides in the fourth musing; seated, [one] suffuses [one’s] body with purity by the pureness of [one’s] mind so that there is not one particle of the body that is not pervaded with purity by the pureness of [one’s] mind.
 

(AN III 25-28, Pali Text Society Vol. III p 18-19, see also MN III 92-93; bracketed material paraphrases original)
 

“Pureness of mind” is what remains when “doing something” ceases.  When “doing something” has ceased, and there is “not one particle of the body” that cannot receive the placement of attention, then the placement of attention is free to shift as necessary in the movement of breath.

...The difficulty is that most people will lose consciousness before they cede activity to the location of attention–they lose the presence of mind with the placement of attention, because they can’t believe that action in the body is possible without “doing something”...

When a presence of mind is retained as the placement of attention shifts, then the natural tendency toward the free placement of attention can draw out thought initial and sustained, and bring on the stages of concentration...

 

(Shunryu Suzuki on Shikantaza and the Theravadin Stages)

 

 

And you never have to leave home, in that "the stage of concentration that lends itself to practice in the moment is dependent on the tendency toward the free placement of attention."

My take:  "I practice now to experience the free placement of attention as the sole source of activity in the body in the movement of breath, and in my “complicated, difficult” daily life, I look for the mindfulness that allows me to touch on that freedom" (“To Enjoy Our Life”).
 

Not to be rude but, which part of this is the alchemy of a practice?

[Sleepy Bluejay]

11 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

24．.....师答曰。夫道以无心为体。忘言为用。以柔弱为本。以清静为基。若施于人。必节饮食。绝思虑。静坐以调息。安寝以养炁。心不驰则性定。形不劳则精全。神不扰则丹结。然后灭情于虚。宁神于极。

The teacher said:
No intention is the fundamental basis. Forgetting the words(silence) is the function. Based on the softness and tranquility, if passed onto others, one must go on diet and forget all the worries. Zazen to regulate the breathing and laid down to preserve chi(养炁).

If the heart is not disturbed, then, it is at rest. If the body is not busy, then the jing is full. If the soul has no worries, then the dan(丹) has formed. Hereinafter, enter the emptiness by getting rid of all the desires. Hence, Ning Shen(宁神) is at the highest state.

I'm confused.

No intention is the fundamental basis in what and why? Forgetting the words (silence) is the function of what? Why do you need to go on a diet and forget all the worries? If one forgets all their worries, will all their problems go away or does it just mean to be calm in stressful situations?

Why is Jing full if the body isn't busy? What is Jing symbolizing in this?

 

If this isn't about how your practice works then is this a responds to someone?

What is the alchemy/system behind your practice?

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

7 minutes ago, Sleepy Bluejay said:

I'm confused.

No intention is the fundamental basis in what and why? Forgetting the words (silence) is the function of what? Why do you need to go on a diet and forget all the worries? If one forgets all their worries, will all their problems go away or does it just mean to be calm in stressful situations?

Why is Jing full if the body isn't busy? What is Jing symbolizing in this?

 

If this isn't about how your practice works then is this a responds to someone?

What is the alchemy/system behind your practice?

It’s explaining the importance of stillness for practice. With a still mind your meditation will be more effective. 

It’s not just a diet by not eating McDonald’s, but reducing all things that could be bad for you. This will help your body (by becoming healthier) and your mind (by having less guilt) which will both make practice better.
 

Jing is jing. It’s not just your sexual energy but also your potential energy for health and qi. When your body isn’t too active or you aren’t thinking about naughty things, you won’t use up as much jing.

 

It is completely related to practice and very good advice for people learning.
 

 

[ChiDragon]

3 hours ago, -ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ- said:

Ah are you fluent?

Yes.

[Neirong]

On 30.01.2024 at 2:47 PM, Sleepy Bluejay said:

Lets make things clear for all new members to come.

How does the alchemy of internal alchemy work in your practice? 

I can give a simple answer, which is also hard to swallow for most.

• Any legit practice/tradition has a chain of prerequisites/steps to be made.
• Legit practices are never written in public books - you have to find a living tradition/teacher for transmission
• Even with that it takes many years of hard work and effort to build the necessary qualities and skills.

A kid goes to kindergarten to learn, then to school; an idea to skip directly and go to university and write Ph.D. work when you have not even learned the alphabet and cannot write?
Yes, a kid can scribble some symbols on paper, but it won't be a masterpiece of intellectual work.
 

While those prerequisites may vary from tradition to tradition, based on the focus and goals of the art, they exist everywhere. Looking for shortcuts is a fool's endeavor, and it ends up being the long path.
The early path, when you have to train and discipline your mind, is usually tough for most, as it is a striking difference from the mundane lifestyle of a monkey whose goal is chasing desires and going with the "flow."
 

A person with a rattling mind and low energy won't have the same ability to cultivate as someone who attained a permanent state of samadhi, a dozen siddhis, and cultivated a massive energy field.
When people do not have level required to cultivate properly, they start playing "Batman" "Goku" and imagining themselves cultivating, playing a role. An ego wishes to bend the world to its own limited understanding.

Edited February 1 by Neirong

[ChiDragon]

55 minutes ago, Neirong said:

A person with a rattling mind and low energy won't have the same ability to cultivate as someone who attained a permanent state of samadhi, a dozen siddhis, and cultivated a massive energy field.
When people do not have level required to cultivate properly, they start playing "Batman" "Goku" and imagining themselves cultivating, playing a role. An ego wishes to bend the world to its own limited understanding.

How can a person obtain the level required to cultivate properly? Isn't the idea was to practice from the beginning to get to the point where one wants to be, progressively?

[snowymountains]

On 31/01/2024 at 11:22 PM, ChiDragon said:

That is what we will get from all the Taoist texts. They are just copies of the basic concept.

 

They must deviate at some point, if anything in terms of goals.

Eg for Theravada the goal is to become an Arahat, one could say the practical goal is stream entry though, to set the bar lower.

 

For Alchemy what is the goal? Is it only immortality? ( I say "only" because I believe this to be impossible and hence not a goal ).

Are there spiritual goals too ? If so how do the spiritual goals differ eg to stream entry 

Edited February 1 by snowymountains

[ChiDragon]

10 minutes ago, snowymountains said:

For Alchemy what is the goal? Is it only immortality? ( I say "only" because I believe this to be impossible and hence not a goal ).

Are there spiritual goals too ? If so how do the spiritual goals differ eg to stream entry 

The goal for alchemy is to have good health. It was only a hope for immortality. One might say it was a wishful thinking at the time due the lack of scientific knowledge.

Edited February 1 by ChiDragon

[snowymountains]

10 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

The goal for alchemy is to have good health. It was only a hope for immortality. One might say it was a wishful thinking at the time due the lack of scientific knowledge.

 

Thank you. How does alchemy differentiate to Qigong for health then in terms of outcomes?

Method may be different but if promised outcome is the same, the two would be fishing in the same pond.

 

[Mark Foote]

15 hours ago, Sleepy Bluejay said:

Not to be rude but, which part of this is the alchemy of a practice?
 

Rude! 

I was riffing off the Google translation of Taoist Text's Chinese excerpt.  Was that excerpt not about alchemy?

What I outlined is just according with my own nature, which is really the immortality that the alchemy is all about, IMHO.

Here's Wikipedia on "The Golden Flower" (my emphasis):

 

The Secret of the Golden Flower (Chinese: 太乙金華宗旨; pinyin: Tàiyǐ Jīnhuá Zōngzhǐ) is a Chinese Taoist book on neidan (inner alchemy) meditation, which also mixes Buddhist teachings with some Confucian thoughts. It was written by means of the spirit-writing (fuji) technique, through two groups, in 1688 and 1692.

 

 

Here's a lovely illustration from "The Golden Flower"--now I would say this is an illustration of what I described as "finding ligaments that control reciprocal innervation in the lower body and along the spine through relaxation, and calming the stretch of ligaments":

 

 

"We'll just lay there by the juniper,
while the moon is bright;
and watch them jugs a fillin',
in the pale moonlight."

 

 

Edited February 2 by Mark Foote

[Maddie]

13 minutes ago, snowymountains said:

 

Thank you. How does alchemy differentiate to Qigong for health then in terms of outcomes?

Method may be different but if promised outcome is the same, the two would be fishing in the same pond.

 

I thought qigong was to make one healthy and alchemy was to make one like Dragon Ball Z?

[Mark Foote]

2 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

How can a person obtain the level required to cultivate properly? Isn't the idea was to practice from the beginning to get to the point where one wants to be, progressively?
 

 

 

Know your question was not directed to me, ChiDragon, but I can't resist.  I'm not saying that cultivation isn't important, but I am saying that no amount of cultivation amounts to the jumping off required to realize activity purely out of the placement of attention from moment to moment.

 

...The difficulty is that most people will lose consciousness before they cede activity to the location of attention–they lose the presence of mind with the placement of attention, because they can’t believe that action in the body is possible without “doing something”...

 

 

 

[snowymountains]

2 minutes ago, Maddie said:

I thought qigong was to make one healthy and alchemy was to make one like Dragon Ball Z?

 

ChiDragon said above alchemy is for health, but then I guess Gokuhud would be left pathless 😁

[silent thunder]

1 hour ago, Maddie said:

I thought qigong was to make one healthy and alchemy was to make one like Dragon Ball Z?

 I hope you encounter some sources of neigong and alchemy that assuage you of this notion.

There has been another recent influx of 'dragon ball' kidz here.  It happens somewhat regularly and after a bit they tend to trail off and leave.

 

 

1 hour ago, snowymountains said:

 

ChiDragon said above alchemy is for health, but then I guess Gokuhud would be left pathless 😁

Only if you consider Mr Dragon as a qualified source.  If you research the long history here regarding Mr Dragon's offerings (off and on with him quitting several times when he received push back from established lineage practicing members, then returning again after a year or so off, this is one of those recent returns)

 

You might be rather surprised by what you find regarding his 'expertise' and his unfortunate past posting style of fundamentalist literal oriented take on things, particularly regarding translations of classic texts.

 

Food for thought from one who's watched the ferris wheel go round for some years here...

[ChiDragon]

Look how many who left and never came back?

[ChiDragon]

Breathe, just breathe for good health.

Isn't that lucky that Qigong helped me to survive after 6.3 minutes without losing my breath?

Edited February 2 by ChiDragon

[snowymountains]

7 hours ago, silent thunder said:

 I hope you encounter some sources of neigong and alchemy that assuage you of this notion.

There has been another recent influx of 'dragon ball' kidz here.  It happens somewhat regularly and after a bit they tend to trail off and leave.

 

 

Only if you consider Mr Dragon as a qualified source.  If you research the long history here regarding Mr Dragon's offerings (off and on with him quitting several times when he received push back from established lineage practicing members, then returning again after a year or so off, this is one of those recent returns)

 

You might be rather surprised by what you find regarding his 'expertise' and his unfortunate past posting style of fundamentalist literal oriented take on things, particularly regarding translations of classic texts.

 

Food for thought from one who's watched the ferris wheel go round for some years here...

 

So, in your take, what are the goals, other than immortality which doesn't exist, and how do the goals differ to the goals of other practices, ie how do they differ to stream entry?

 

Chi dragon gave his personal interpretation of immortality, good health, more reasonable than a literal interpretation.

Maybe there are other goals which also have reasonable interpretations, I honestly don't know, I practice a different path, curious to hear on the Goku-less goals.

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

17 minutes ago, snowymountains said:

Maybe there are other goals which also have reasonable interpretations, I honestly don't know, I practice a different path, curious to hear on the Goku-less goals.

The main goal of alchemy is to crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentations of their women.

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

Na I’m joking. The goal depends from lineage to lineage, and person to person. Even the methods change too.

 

Best to just find one that works for you and focus on that. The qigong and neigong that I do is more for healing myself and others, I’m not so concerned with immortality or invincibility.