alchemy How does it work?

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

1 minute ago, Sleepy Bluejay said:

Remember to delete my account after banning because I will be back if you don't. And I will call all of you trashy people out every time you try to play it cute <3

Enough, move on. The thread is getting back on topic. 

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

28 minutes ago, blue eyed snake said:

I started training before I did read anything, so when i read this for the first time

 

 

I would like to expand on this and say you not only shouldn’t read too much books when beginning cultivation, but not read up too much theory either. It doesn’t matter what happens later on in the path, learn the first step first. A lot of things won’t make any sense when you read them before experiencing anything, and sometimes you will try to force things if you read about them first. 
 

Practice, practice, practice, every day. That’s all you need to do.

 

 

[Maddie]

10 minutes ago, -ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ- said:

Enough, move on. The thread is getting back on topic. 

 

This dude is starting to sound like a psychopath  

[snowymountains]

32 minutes ago, blue eyed snake said:

 

not really, would be a book so you'd better read one of the books already written

 

point is

 

I used to be like you, at least what I read here from you.

you are a smart young lady that is very rational in the way she perceives the world, I was in academics too and that sharpens the mind to work like that. That's a good quality but it's not all there is.

 

ehm, you read the golden flower?

no matter, here's a link.https://thesecretofthegoldenflower.com/index.html

 

Its the most well known and reasonable accessible text

 

but when you read it many parts read like total hogwash, some of that is because its shrouded in terms, but another part turns out to be quite literal.

 

I started training before I did read anything, so when i read this for the first time

 

for instance chapter 3 paragraph 3

3. Only after concentrated work of a hundred days will the light be genuine, only then will it become spirit-fire. After a hundred days, from a point of real yang in the light, suddenly a millet pearl is born by itself, 

 

I have been aware of the birth of that milletpearl, had at the time no idea what happened until reading this, it's a very literal description. and there are more literal descriptions in that little book.

 

this one was a very clear recognition too, this is an exact description

chapter 6 paragraph 6

6.   , when one has entered the state of meditation, it is like one`s spirit is in a valley. When one hears someone else talking, it is as if one hears it from about half a kilometer away, yet clearly. It sounds like an echo in a valley. One definitely hears it and yet it is not oneself that hears it.

 

-----

but when you have not had those experiences you would regard the birth of a milletpearl as hogwash/ delusional.

being just as rational an animal as you are I was quite happy i had been training before I read this ( and other) books.

Neither is a story about a spirit in a valley especially elucidating.

 

there are some things you cannot learn with the rational mind, it needs to be set aside for awhile. Just like learning to ride a bike, you can know everything there is to know about riding a bike, about balance and vectors and such things.

 

but to learn it you have to climb on and put your body to work.

and after you've learned to ride that bike without even having hands on the handlebars

 

you cannot explain to someone how you do it

 

thus is it with cultivation, the only way to find out is to do the practice and to empty the mind

 

 

 

The main thing challenged is not the experiences but rather the interpretation of thereof.

 

Eg Nimittas had and still are sometimes interpreted as becoming enlightened or a divine sign or ...

 

There's no doubt people see Nimittas during samatha, this is common, it's the interpretation that's challenged.

 

Similarly for interpretations of open awareness experiences, samadhi etc.

 

The experience is not what's challenged, the interpretation on the other hand is, when the interpretation is metaphysical.

 

 

[Maddie]

1 minute ago, snowymountains said:

 

The main thing challenged is not the experiences but rather the interpretation of thereof.

 

Eg Nimittas had and still are sometimes interpreted as becoming enlightened or a divine sign or ...

 

There's no doubt people see Nimittas during samatha, this is common, it's the interpretation that's challenged.

 

Similarly for interpretations of open awareness experiences, samadhi etc.

 

The experience is not what's challenged, the interpretation on the other hand is, when the interpretation is metaphysical.

 

 

 

This is a classic situation of a definite subjective experience being interpreted as an objective experience.  

[snowymountains]

1 minute ago, Maddie said:

 

This is a classic situation of a definite subjective experience being interpreted as an objective experience.  

 

It's beyond because the experience is eg seeing a ball of light. This happens to a lot of folks during Samatha, actually a Nimitta appears to most dedicated meditators.

 

The attribution of divine characteristics or whatevs to that light, in this case, is not even part of the experience.

 

What's asked to be treated as objective is the interpretation of the experience.

[Maddie]

2 minutes ago, snowymountains said:

 

It's beyond because the experience is eg seeing a ball of light. This happens to a lot of folks during Samatha, actually a Nimitta appears to most dedicated meditators.

 

The attribution of divine characteristics or whatevs to that light, in this case, is not even part of the experience.

 

What's asked to be treated as objective is the interpretation of the experience.

 

One thing that really confused me when I began meditation was that after a while I would always feel like I was sitting under a street lamp even though I would typically meditate in the dark at that time. I had never heard of nimitta back then and had no idea what was going on. It would feel like a light was shinning over the top of my head. 

Edited February 2 by Maddie

[snowymountains]

Just now, Maddie said:

 

One thing that really confused me when I began meditation was that after a while I would always feel like I was sitting under a street lamp even thought I would typically meditate in the dark at that time. I had never heard of nimitta back then and had no idea what was going on. It would feel like a light was shinning over the top of my head. 

 

If you saw light eg in sun or diamond shape then it's a Nimitta, if you felt light ( felt heat in reality) then no clue what it is.

Btw the colour can vary between meditators and it can change for a given meditator.

 

But whatevs the colour, it's not the sign of enlightenment, nor divine nor whatevs metaphysical.

 

It is a sign of deep concentration though.

[Maddie]

1 minute ago, snowymountains said:

 

If you saw light eg in sun or diamond shape then it's a Nimitta, if you felt light ( felt heat in reality) then no clue what it is.

Btw the colour can vary between meditators and it can change for a given meditator.

 

But whatevs the colour, it's not the sign of enlightenment, nor divine nor whatevs metaphysical.

 

It is a sign of deep concentration though.

 

I didn't feel anything. It's like I was sitting there and a light was on over my head but I could still "see" it somehow. It's weird, I know. 

[Keith108]

2 hours ago, Maddie said:

 

Hello Keith, welcome (I saw you in the new comers area) sorry you had to walk into that. 

No worries...kind of surprised this has been allowed to carry on this far. Our friend is quite obviously trying to get banned. I am new here, but not new when it comes to discussion forums in general. It's too bad you have been personally attacked this way. 

 

I will say, because I have run into in this in Buddhist fora in the past, that there are people who do believe in things we can't readily verify by our own experience or through science. I think it's pretty unskillful to belittle those beliefs. 

 

Some wise person is purported to have said:

 

Before you speak, let your words pass through three gates: Is it true? Is it necessary? Is it kind?

 

Round and round...

 

_/|\_

Edited February 2 by Keith108

[snowymountains]

Just now, Maddie said:

 

I didn't feel anything. It's like I was sitting there and a light was on over my head but I could still "see" it somehow. It's weird, I know. 

 

Sounds like a Nimitta. Just return focus to the object of concentration ( eg breath ) when it appears.

 

If it ever covers all the visual field, you'll be at first Jhana, then concentrate on the Nimitta ( because the breath will momentary stop anyhow, the Nimitta is the only thing to concentrate on )

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

12 minutes ago, Maddie said:

 

One thing that really confused me when I began meditation was that after a while I would always feel like I was sitting under a street lamp even though I would typically meditate in the dark at that time. I had never heard of nimitta back then and had no idea what was going on. It would feel like a light was shinning over the top of my head. 

There you go. You should be more open minded to more weird and unexplainable things if that happened to you.

[Maddie]

6 minutes ago, Keith108 said:

No worries...kind of surprised this has been allowed to carry on this far. Our friend is quite obviously trying to get banned. I am new here, but not new when it comes to discussion forums in general. It's too bad you have been personally attacked this way. 

 

I wil say, because I have run into in this in  Buddhist fora in the past, that there are people who do believe in things we can't readily verify by our own experience or through science. I think it's pretty unskillful to belittle those beliefs. 

 

Some wise person is purported to have said:

 

Before you speak, let your words pass through three gates: Is it true? Is it necessary? Is it kind?

 

Round and round...

 

_/|\_

 

I agree, although I never did belittle him or his belief. He seems to have some issues and was just spinning it that way. I agree with the three gates for sure! :-)

[Maddie]

1 minute ago, -ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ- said:

There you go. You should be more open minded to more weird and unexplainable things if that happened to you.

 

I think there has been a misunderstanding of my views because of a straw man that Blue Jay built of me. I am open minded to things that can be supported. Don't let the version that a crazy person constructs of me become the version of me that is believed here. I am simply skeptical in a healthy way of things that can not be supported, which is as it should be in my opinion. 

[ChiDragon]

FYI The TCM and claims of different methods and practices are just imaginary concepts. There are no scientific proves but beliefs and the results are the only proves. How does work? Just go study the function of the human and try to relate them.

Edited February 2 by ChiDragon

[Maddie]

3 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

FYI The TCM and claims of different methods and practices are just imaginary concepts. There are no scientific proves but beliefs and the results are the only proves. How does work? Just go study the function of the human and try to relate them.

 

Actually that is not true. There is a lot of scientific research into TCM. ST 36 is considered one of the primary points of the digestive system. They did studies in a lab where they would measure peoples digestive enzymes before and after needling it and it was definitively shown that digestive enzyme levels increased to a significant degree! This is objective evidence. 

[ChiDragon]

 

10 minutes ago, Maddie said:

They did studies in a lab where they would measure peoples digestive enzymes before and after needling it and it was definitively shown that digestive enzyme levels increased to a significant degree! This is objective evidence.

15 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

Just go study the function of the human and try to relate them.

Yes, that is what they are doing now.

Edited February 2 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

22 minutes ago, Maddie said:

They did studies in a lab where they would measure peoples digestive enzymes before and after needling it and it was definitively shown that digestive enzyme levels increased to a significant degree

When there is lack of digestive enzyme, the system did not recognize it. It was said it is in stagnation in TCM. In order to activate the system to produce more enzyme, acupuncture will stimulate the nervous system to by pass the stagnation with a signal to produce more enzyme. This is my understanding.

Edited February 2 by ChiDragon

[Maddie]

13 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

When there is lack of digestive enzyme, the system did not recognize it. It was said it is in stagnation in TCM. In order to activate the system to produce more enzyme, acupuncture will stimulate the nervous system to by pass the stagnation with a signal to produce more enzyme. This is my understanding.

 

Usually lack of digestive enzymes would be described as spleen qi deficiency not stagnation

[snowymountains]

53 minutes ago, Keith108 said:

No worries...kind of surprised this has been allowed to carry on this far. Our friend is quite obviously trying to get banned. I am new here, but not new when it comes to discussion forums in general. It's too bad you have been personally attacked this way. 

 

I wil say, because I have run into in this in  Buddhist fora in the past, that there are people who do believe in things we can't readily verify by our own experience or through science. I think it's pretty unskillful to belittle those beliefs. 

 

Some wise person is purported to have said:

 

Before you speak, let your words pass through three gates: Is it true? Is it necessary? Is it kind?

 

Round and round...

 

_/|\_

 

As counterpoint though, factual disagreement imo is a good thing.

 

Of course anyone can believe what they want and ,as long as it's civil, are at liberty to say it but also others are at liberty to point it's entirely unfounded. Else, we'd still be trying to use spells on bacteria.

 

Another wise man openly spoke of the perils of Gurus and their promises, cracked some good jokes along the way and a lot of people benefited from him doing this.

 

Choosing between two wise men is an impossible task and at the end, one should do what they believe to be right.

[Maddie]

5 minutes ago, snowymountains said:

 

As counterpoint though, factual disagreement imo is a good thing.

 

Of course anyone can believe what they want and ,as long as it's civil, are at liberty to say it but also others are at liberty to point it's entirely unfounded. Else, we'd still be trying to use spells on bacteria.

 

Another wise man openly spoke of the perils of Gurus and their promises, cracked some good jokes along the way and a lot of people benefited from him doing this.

 

Choosing between two wise men is an impossible task and at the end, one should do what they believe to be right.

 

Exactly. We should be open-minded especially to evidence. But we should also use critical thinking and have healthy skepticism. Saying that it's bad to question things then leaves open the possibility that I propose that all cookies are made by Keeber elves in a tree and if you disagree with me you're attacking me personally and then if I become above question even in the face of evidence we are no longer progressing but going back to the dark ages.

Edited February 2 by Maddie

[blue eyed snake]

2 hours ago, Maddie said:

 

I'll think about that.... ;-)

 

 

 

what a sweet lady

[blue eyed snake]

2 hours ago, Sleepy Bluejay said:

And so far all I have gotten is that you all are making a mockery of religions and others occult belief but still have the audacity to have a "General discussion" containing religions.

 

I 've not made a mockery of any religion as far as I am aware

 

 

[snowymountains]

10 minutes ago, Maddie said:

 

Exactly. We should be open-minded especially to evidence. But we should also use critical thinking and have healthy skepticism. Saying that it's bad to question things then leaves open the possibility that I propose that all cookies are made by keeper elves in a tree and if you disagree with me you're attacking me personally and then if I become above question even in the face of evidence we are no longer progressing but going back to the dark ages.

 

Imo the downside is for someone who may take these things literally in important matters, because as far as a historical or theological read is concerned , sure why not read a medieval text on immortality, invisibility etc. in a thread recently some folks were literally proposing spells instead of psychotherapy to someone.

Edited February 2 by snowymountains

[blue eyed snake]

1 hour ago, snowymountains said:

 

The main thing challenged is not the experiences but rather the interpretation of thereof.

 

Eg Nimittas had and still are sometimes interpreted as becoming enlightened or a divine sign or ...

 

There's no doubt people see Nimittas during samatha, this is common, it's the interpretation that's challenged.

 

Similarly for interpretations of open awareness experiences, samadhi etc.

 

The experience is not what's challenged, the interpretation on the other hand is, when the interpretation is metaphysical.

 

 

 

i try not to interprete anymore, interpretation is useless mindtalk, just be