alchemy How does it work?

[Maddie]

1 hour ago, snowymountains said:

 

It's Stevenson, his student also became a professor ( he was the one at the recent Netflix series ) and Dr. Weiss who have done a lot of work on these.

 

It's very interesting but their conclusions are not accepted by their peers.

At this point it's definitely not proof of reincarnation.

 

 

As I said I've done the regressions myself, with a qualified therapist. A qualified therapist does the regression only when certain criteria are met, never because someone is merely curious. So I do mean it when I say I'm genuinely interested in this.

 

But being genuinely interested doesn't mean convinced though, nor that it's factually correct.

 

I have actually wondered about Stevenson's research, and why it wasn't accepted by his peers? I assume because it does not and/or can not meet the criteria of the scientific method? 

[snowymountains]

47 minutes ago, Maddie said:

 

I have actually wondered about Stevenson's research, and why it wasn't accepted by his peers? I assume because it does not and/or can not meet the criteria of the scientific method? 

 

The whole methodology is in question.

 

It's more like the whole view in inversed.

 

Eg let's say when you were 5 you had some accident with fire and today you have some patterns related to that traumatic event. The cause is clear and in a regression a therapist would go back to that event and then do what they need to do with you when you're at that event.

 

Now let's say you have some pattern around something else ( a person, water, planes, whatevs) and there's no event in your life triggering it, let's leave aside disowned memories, let's assume it's not that.

The cause could be because of eg intergenerational trauma or other reasons, but as we have assumed so, it's definitely not some event in your life.

 

This may ( doesn't need to ) appear as a memory of a "past life" that you don't have conscious access to, and a past life regression can be used to access that.

 

This doesn't mean that the past life really was an actual past life of course, the past life memory can of course merely be a way to encode it. But it still exists in the unconscious mind as memory.

 

A regression is not the only way to uncover it btw, it may also happen in recurrent dreams or in some cases spontaneously ( in Theravada there's also a way to access it after someone has reached the 4th Jhana, though I haven't done that personally ).

 

Now I'll be putting aside past lives regressions , the below is irrelevant to the therapeutic technique ( which must only be done with a qualified therapist, only if the therapist believes it's applicable, and for good reasons ).

 

So now let's assume you have regressed, accessed the "past life", and assuming the "past life" is not too far off in the past, you start to wonder, hey can I check if this is for real?

 

For one, someone should not cherry pick only the parts of the regression that match some historical record, ignoring facts which don't match.

Nor is it clear how to combine information through successive regressions for the same "past life" period.

Also, some information could had gone there in multiple ways, it can be extremely difficult to isolate the way.

 

Plus the regression process itself ( or any different way used to access the memory, not only regressions), can affect/alter the memory itself, especially if new conscious knowledge around it has been  added ( eg because of the research a kid's dad did which the kid overheard).

 

So in short it's not as straightforward as ABC, do the regression, see xyz, infer xyz is definitely a real memory from an actual past life and see if xyz matches some historical record.

 

The methodologies used for points like the above are not accepted by their peers.

So while this work is very interesting, it doesn't currently meet the standards required to consider it a fact 

 

Actually, if someone goes to a therapist and says hey I want to do it this because I want to access past lives, the therapist should decline if they follow their code of conduct, for good reasons.

 

Edited February 3 by snowymountains

[Mark Foote]

On 2/2/2024 at 1:00 PM, snowymountains said:

 

Sounds like a Nimitta. Just return focus to the object of concentration ( eg breath ) when it appears.

 

If it ever covers all the visual field, you'll be at first Jhana, then concentrate on the Nimitta ( because the breath will momentary stop anyhow, the Nimitta is the only thing to concentrate on )
 

That moment when "the breath will momentarily stop"--that's the moment when necessity can place attention, such that the breath does not stop:

 

The presence of mind can utilize the location of attention to maintain the balance of the body and coordinate activity in the movement of breath, without a particularly conscious effort to do so. There can also come a moment when the movement of breath necessitates the placement of attention at a certain location in the body, or at a series of locations, with the ability to remain awake as the location of attention shifts retained through the exercise of presence.
 

So far as I know, the "survey-sign" follows the fourth concentration.  Certainly, Gautama referred to it as the "fifth limb" of concentration.

 

Again, the survey-sign is rightly grasped by (a person), rightly held by the attention, rightly reflected upon, rightly penetrated by insight. … just as someone might survey another, standing might survey another sitting, or sitting might survey another lying down; even so the survey-sign is rightly grasped by (a person), rightly held by the attention, rightly reflected upon, rightly penetrated by insight. 

(AN III 25-28, Pali Text Society Vol. III pg 18-19, see also MN III 92-93, PTS pg 132-134)

I'm not saying that the "survey-sign" can't be invoked in the first concentration.  The fifteenth element of the mindfulness that Gautama described as his way of living was:
 

"Contemplating cessation I shall breathe in. Contemplating cessation I shall breathe out."

(SN V 312, Pali Text Society Vol V p 275-276; tr. F. L. Woodward)

 

That cessation may or may not be "the cessation of inbreathing and outbreathing" (or in plain English, "the cessation of habit and volition in the activity of the body in inhalation and exhalation")--the cessation which marks the fourth concentration.  Makes sense to me that Gautama would practice to the fourth concentration and the sign of the concentration, then utilize the sign of the concentration to experience the cessation of the fourth concentration as appropriate in daily living.

There's no concentration without one-pointedness:

Herein… the (noble) disciple, making self-surrender the object of (their) thought, lays hold of concentration, lays hold of one-pointedness.  (The disciple), aloof from sensuality, aloof from evil conditions, enters on the first trance, which is accompanied by thought directed and sustained, which is born of solitude, easeful and zestful, and abides therein.  

(SN V 198, Pali Text Society vol V p 174; “noble” substituted for Ariyan; emphasis added)

 

Here's Zen teacher Koun Franz's description of "one-pointedness of mind", although he doesn't identify it as such.  He, too, talks about broadening the visual field:
 

 

Okay… So, have your hands in the cosmic mudra, palms up, thumbs touching, and there’s this common instruction: place your mind here. Different people interpret this differently. Some people will say this means to place your attention here, meaning to keep your attention on your hands. It’s a way of turning the lens to where you are in space so that you’re not looking out here and out here and out here. It’s the positive version, perhaps, of ‘navel gazing’.

 

The other way to understand this is to literally place your mind where your hands are–to relocate mind (let’s not say your mind) to your centre of gravity, so that mind is operating from a place other than your brain. Some traditions take this very seriously, this idea of moving your consciousness around the body. I wouldn’t recommend dedicating your life to it, but as an experiment, I recommend trying it, sitting in this posture and trying to feel what it’s like to let your mind, to let the base of your consciousness, move away from your head. One thing you’ll find, or that I have found, at least, is that you can’t will it to happen, because you’re willing it from your head. To the extent that you can do it, it’s an act of letting go–and a fascinating one. 

 

... I was taught we should be constantly aware of our eyes when we sit. Specifically, we should be aware of how we narrow and widen the aperture, how our field of vision gets narrower and narrower as our mind gets narrower and narrower. When you see that clearly, you also see how easily you can just open it up; the degree to which we open it up is the degree to which we’re here.

(No Struggle [Zazen Yojinki, Part 6]”, by Koun Franz, from the “Nyoho Zen” site
https://nyoho.com/2018/09/15/no-struggle-zazen-yojinki-part-6/)

 

 

For me, the practice is more like:

 

“… (a person) steeps, drenches, fills, and suffuses this body with zest and ease, born of solitude, so that there is not one particle of the body that is not pervaded by this lone-born zest and ease.”
 

(AN III 25-28, Pali Text Society Vol. III p 18-19, see also MN III 92-93, PTS p 132-134)

 

Words like “steeps” and “drenches” convey a sense of gravity, while the phrase “not one particle of the body that is not pervaded” speaks to the “one-pointedness” of attention, even as the body is suffused.
 

If I can find a way to experience gravity in the placement of attention as the source of activity in my posture, and particular ligaments as the source of the reciprocity in that activity, then I have an ease.

("To Enjoy Our Life")

 

 

 

[snowymountains]

2 minutes ago, Mark Foote said:

That moment when "the breath will momentarily stop"--that's the moment when necessity can place attention, such that the breath does not stop:

 

The presence of mind can utilize the location of attention to maintain the balance of the body and coordinate activity in the movement of breath, without a particularly conscious effort to do so. There can also come a moment when the movement of breath necessitates the placement of attention at a certain location in the body, or at a series of locations, with the ability to remain awake as the location of attention shifts retained through the exercise of presence.
 

So far as I know, the "survey-sign" follows the fourth concentration.  Certainly, Gautama referred to it as the "fifth limb" of concentration.

 

Again, the survey-sign is rightly grasped by (a person), rightly held by the attention, rightly reflected upon, rightly penetrated by insight. … just as someone might survey another, standing might survey another sitting, or sitting might survey another lying down; even so the survey-sign is rightly grasped by (a person), rightly held by the attention, rightly reflected upon, rightly penetrated by insight. 

(AN III 25-28, Pali Text Society Vol. III pg 18-19, see also MN III 92-93, PTS pg 132-134)

I'm not saying that the "survey-sign" can't be invoked in the first concentration.  The fifteenth element of the mindfulness that Gautama described as his way of living was:
 

"Contemplating cessation I shall breathe in. Contemplating cessation I shall breathe out."

(SN V 312, Pali Text Society Vol V p 275-276; tr. F. L. Woodward)

 

That cessation may or may not be "the cessation of inbreathing and outbreathing" (or in plain English, "the cessation of habit and volition in the activity of the body in inhalation and exhalation")--the cessation which marks the fourth concentration.  Makes sense to me that Gautama would practice to the fourth concentration and the sign of the concentration, then utilize the sign of the concentration to experience the cessation of the fourth concentration as appropriate in daily living.

There's no concentration without one-pointedness:

Herein… the (noble) disciple, making self-surrender the object of (their) thought, lays hold of concentration, lays hold of one-pointedness.  (The disciple), aloof from sensuality, aloof from evil conditions, enters on the first trance, which is accompanied by thought directed and sustained, which is born of solitude, easeful and zestful, and abides therein.  

(SN V 198, Pali Text Society vol V p 174; “noble” substituted for Ariyan; emphasis added)

 

Here's Zen teacher Koun Franz's description of "one-pointedness of mind", although he doesn't identify it as such.  He, too, talks about broadening the visual field:
 

 

Okay… So, have your hands in the cosmic mudra, palms up, thumbs touching, and there’s this common instruction: place your mind here. Different people interpret this differently. Some people will say this means to place your attention here, meaning to keep your attention on your hands. It’s a way of turning the lens to where you are in space so that you’re not looking out here and out here and out here. It’s the positive version, perhaps, of ‘navel gazing’.

 

The other way to understand this is to literally place your mind where your hands are–to relocate mind (let’s not say your mind) to your centre of gravity, so that mind is operating from a place other than your brain. Some traditions take this very seriously, this idea of moving your consciousness around the body. I wouldn’t recommend dedicating your life to it, but as an experiment, I recommend trying it, sitting in this posture and trying to feel what it’s like to let your mind, to let the base of your consciousness, move away from your head. One thing you’ll find, or that I have found, at least, is that you can’t will it to happen, because you’re willing it from your head. To the extent that you can do it, it’s an act of letting go–and a fascinating one. 

 

... I was taught we should be constantly aware of our eyes when we sit. Specifically, we should be aware of how we narrow and widen the aperture, how our field of vision gets narrower and narrower as our mind gets narrower and narrower. When you see that clearly, you also see how easily you can just open it up; the degree to which we open it up is the degree to which we’re here.

(No Struggle [Zazen Yojinki, Part 6]”, by Koun Franz, from the “Nyoho Zen” site
https://nyoho.com/2018/09/15/no-struggle-zazen-yojinki-part-6/)

 

 

For me, the practice is more like:

 

“… (a person) steeps, drenches, fills, and suffuses this body with zest and ease, born of solitude, so that there is not one particle of the body that is not pervaded by this lone-born zest and ease.”
 

(AN III 25-28, Pali Text Society Vol. III p 18-19, see also MN III 92-93, PTS p 132-134)

 

Words like “steeps” and “drenches” convey a sense of gravity, while the phrase “not one particle of the body that is not pervaded” speaks to the “one-pointedness” of attention, even as the body is suffused.
 

If I can find a way to experience gravity in the placement of attention as the source of activity in my posture, and particular ligaments as the source of the reciprocity in that activity, then I have an ease.

("To Enjoy Our Life")

 

 

 

 

I'm not doing this again 🙂, it's just too time consuming, mixing zen sources with Theravada sources, discussing what each phrase in Pali means etc.

If you want to discuss definitions a teacher is the best way to do that.

 

The Nimitta covering everything with a *momentary* stop of the breath is 1st Jhana.

The simplest way to see that it is not the 4th Jhana this can happen via metta or mudita or karuna while neither of these 3 can offer access to the 4th jhana.

 

 

[Mark Foote]

1 minute ago, snowymountains said:

 

I'm not doing this again 🙂, it's just too time consuming, mixing zen sources with Theravada sources, discussing what each phrase in Pali means etc.

If you want to discuss definitions a teacher is the best way to do that.

 

The Nimitta covering everything with a *momentary* stop of the breath is 1st Jhana.

The simplest way to see that it is not the 4th Jhana this can happen via metta or mudita or karuna while neither of these 3 can offer access to the 4th jhana.

 

 

Gautama's experience of the stoppage of breath:

 

So I, Aggivessana, stopped breathing in and breathing out through the mouth and through the nose and through the ears.  When I, Aggivessana, had stopped breathing in and breathing out through the mouth and through the nose and through the ears, I came to have very bad headaches… very strong winds cut through my stomach… there came a fierce heat in my body.  Although, Aggivessana, unsluggish energy came to be stirred up in me, unmuddled mindfulness set up, yet my body was turbulent, not calmed, because I was harassed in striving by striving against that very pain.  But yet, Aggivesana, that painful feeling, arising in me, persisted without impinging on my mind…
 

(MN I 244-245, Pali Text Society vol I p 298-299)

I'm saying if you haven't experienced the fourth jhana, you don't have the "fifth limb" of concentration (the "survey-sign") at your disposal in the first concentration.

I see that you are trying to match up somebody's teachings with your experience.  Why not Gautama's?

 

 

[snowymountains]

1 minute ago, Mark Foote said:

Gautama's experience of the stoppage of breath:

 

So I, Aggivessana, stopped breathing in and breathing out through the mouth and through the nose and through the ears.  When I, Aggivessana, had stopped breathing in and breathing out through the mouth and through the nose and through the ears, I came to have very bad headaches… very strong winds cut through my stomach… there came a fierce heat in my body.  Although, Aggivessana, unsluggish energy came to be stirred up in me, unmuddled mindfulness set up, yet my body was turbulent, not calmed, because I was harassed in striving by striving against that very pain.  But yet, Aggivesana, that painful feeling, arising in me, persisted without impinging on my mind…
 

(MN I 244-245, Pali Text Society vol I p 298-299)

I'm saying if you haven't experienced the fourth jhana, you don't have the "fifth limb" of concentration (the "survey-sign") at your disposal in the first concentration.

I see that you are trying to match up somebody's teachings with your experience.  Why not Gautama's?

 

 

 

The best way to understand the Pali is via a teacher, I don't intend to enter the process of citing the sources in the Pali, like I did for Anapanasati 🙂.

 

It's exactly the sort of discussion to find a teacher for and discuss with them.

[blue eyed snake]

grin

 

the discussion above is sort of what I meant that i try to stop interpreting and storytelling about 'practice' or 'spiritual development'

the Dao that can be talked about is not the real Dao

[blue eyed snake]

1 hour ago, Maddie said:

 

I have actually wondered about Stevenson's research, and why it wasn't accepted by his peers? I assume because it does not and/or can not meet the criteria of the scientific method? 

 

Several reasons, apart from methodological problems, every single westerner is steeped in a culture that denies that reincarnation can exist. It goes against the grain, it's a paradigm hard to uproot.

Christianity says it does not exist, we are born, live and then we go to heaven.

literally, the onceborn

 

One does not go squarely against the church, apart from being bad for your immortal soul, it could have repercussions on the amount of bread you could bring to the table.

 

It's always the safer thing to lay low and conform to the groupnorms. That mister Stevenson had the guts to stick his head above the parapet, i perceive that as laudable

 

the other thingie I mentioned was near death experiences, very intereesting

[blue eyed snake]

3 hours ago, snowymountains said:

 

As your tone seems rather suggestive, I wonder have you ever done past lives regressions with someone qualified in doing this ?

 

course not, i have zero trust in psychotherapists, they can lay on their own divans and analyze their own shit

 

3 hours ago, snowymountains said:

 

Do you know if phychotherapists and hypnotherapists consider past lives regressions to be actual past lives, and if not, then why ?

 

seem to remember they do not

 

3 hours ago, snowymountains said:

 

Or what is the actual purpose of these regressions?

 

probably psychoanalytics

 

3 hours ago, snowymountains said:

 

Or you took everything you read in a book or in an article or a Guru at face value?

 

wow, can you be more dedainful

 

 

[blue eyed snake]

2 hours ago, Apotheose said:

Mysticism means the study of the Mysteries.

In Ancient times, “mystery” was a term which referred to something akin to “sacred knowledge which is obtainable directly from the Source”. It does not mean mysterious, puzzling, or obscure.

 

So, mixing Psychology with Mysticism can make sense until a superficial level. After that, it becomes a wild-goose chase, honestly. One who is initiated knows both are not dissonant, since science is the study of nature which has its origins in the Oneness. But mysticism cannot be approached in its entirety by psychology language and concepts, it gets tautological. Scientific Method can’t get that deep, even the unorthodox ones.

 

Yes, Akashic Records can be accessed with methods, and it is definitely not a “new age” thing and does not have any correlation with “new age” pseudo-mysticism like “the law of attraction” and repeating shallow affirmations. I wouldn’t categorize it as collective consciousness either… Trying to apply concepts from psychology on it, again, does not work above superficiality. Only experience will tell you what the Akashic Records truly are - without the limits of Language.

 

yes, you put that very well, there is a bit of overlap, like a venndiagramm. But the mysteries are vast and the overlap is small. Furthermore a lot of psychology is not very scientific or useful either.

[snowymountains]

5 minutes ago, blue eyed snake said:

 

course not, i have zero trust in psychotherapists, they can lay on their own divans and analyze their own shit

 

 

seem to remember they do not

 

 

probably psychoanalytics

 

 

wow, can you be more dedainful

 

 

 

Well, on one hand you have zero trust on those who do work on how unconscious past life memories can be formed without any actual past lives ever occurring, which is actually why this is not accepted.

On the other hand you're convinced  Christian influence played an important role in the rejection of Stevenson's work ( which has nothing to do with it ).

 

Again, you're free to believe what you want, but past lives, though very interesting, is currently rejected. 

 

Someone saying this not judging, and before sending others to read the literature it's always good idea to have some familiarity with first.

 

[blue eyed snake]

3 hours ago, snowymountains said:

If you were born being able to see it, you were born with a natural talent to concentrate.

 

Of course if you want to assign it meaning ,you're free to do so, but my point is that the experience doesn't come part and parcel with the interpretation.

 

that's a preconceived notion, no concentration needed, what opens it up is a quality of the heart.

 

You do assign meaning, i don't 

[blue eyed snake]

2 minutes ago, snowymountains said:

 

Well, on one hand you have zero trust on those who do work on how unconscious past life memories can be formed without any actual past lives ever occurring, which is actually why this is not accepted.

On the other hand you're convinced  Christian influence played an important role in the rejection of Stevenson's work ( which has nothing to do with it ).

 

Again, you're free to believe what you want, but past lives, though very interesting, is currently rejected. 

 

Someone saying this not judging, and before sending others to read the literature it's always good idea to have some familiarity with first.

 

 

oh yippie, i am free to believe what i want.

 

 

 

 

[snowymountains]

Just now, blue eyed snake said:

 

that's a preconceived notion, no concentration needed, what opens it up is a quality of the heart.

 

You do assign meaning, i don't 

 

When the object of concentration is eg friendliness ( loving-kindness is the more common term ), then yes, that's important.

 

But any object of concentration will do.

 

So no meaning assigned, the most general case is any object of concentration, be it loving-kindness, the breath or a Kasina.

[snowymountains]

3 minutes ago, blue eyed snake said:

 

oh yippie, i am free to believe what i want.

 

 

 

 

 

Of course, and others are also free to point out that it's not factually correct.

[snowymountains]

13 minutes ago, blue eyed snake said:

Furthermore a lot of psychology is not very scientific or useful either.

 

Of course ! 👍🙂❤️

[Nungali]

3 hours ago, snowymountains said:

 

The whole methodology is in question.

 

It's more like the whole view in inversed.

 

Eg let's say when you were 5 you had some accident with fire and today you have some patterns related to that traumatic event. The cause is clear and in a regression a therapist would go back to that event and then do what they need to do with you when you're at that event.

 

Now let's say you have some pattern around something else ( a person, water, planes, whatevs) and there's no event in your life triggering it, let's leave aside disowned memories, let's assume it's not that.

The cause could be because of eg intergenerational trauma or other reasons, but as we have assumed so, it's definitely not some event in your life.

 

This may ( doesn't need to ) appear as a memory of a "past life" that you don't have conscious access to, and a past life regression can be used to access that.

 

This doesn't mean that the past life really was an actual past life of course, the past life memory can of course merely be a way to encode it. But it still exists in the unconscious mind as memory. .....

 

 

OR 

 

' Genetic memory'  ?

 

[  " Neuroscientific research on mice suggests that some experiences can influence subsequent generations. In a 2013 study,^[3][4] mice trained to fear a specific smell passed on their trained aversion to their descendants, which were then extremely sensitive and fearful of the same smell, even though they had never encountered it, nor been trained to fear it.

Changes in brain structure were also found. The researchers concluded that "the experiences of a parent, even before conceiving, markedly influence both structure and function in the nervous system of subsequent generations".^[5]

Scientists speculate that similar genetic mechanisms could be linked with phobias, anxiety, and post-traumatic stress disorders, as well as other neuropsychiatric disorders, in humans.^{[citation needed] "}

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_memory_(psychology)

 

 

[Apotheose]

4 hours ago, snowymountains said:

I don't believe in mysticism, at least not in any magical sense.

 

Oh okay, I thought you believed. I assumed it wrongly then.

 

You refer to “magical” as ‘metaphysical’, right? I’m asking this because I’m afraid our conceptions of magic are distinct. Magic is not Mysticism per se, it’s just a chunk of it.

 

I agree with you in some points. There are some things about mysticism that can indeed be mastered by a cultured psychotherapist, mainly those which cover the relationship between the conscious and the unconscious. Because in the end of the day, it’s not the ‘means’ that matter, it’s the result. It doesn’t matter if its comprehended via mystical or psychological studies; the ‘path’ is not always what determines the result.

 

So, if you don’t believe in mysticism, I assume you don’t believe in a God/Creator as well, or do you?

Also, if someone happen to tell you something about Siddhis, like telekinesis… you wouldn’t believe that at all, right?

Finally, do you think consciousness have been submitted to Evolution (Darwin) throughout the years?

[Nungali]

In some Aboriginal systems 'past life awareness' and 'genetic memory '  seem the same thing .  Simply ; one could have been one's great grandfather .  ' The ancestors live around us (as themselves ; that is , they are able to appear , seemingly from their original form , in various ways , symbols and methods - in 'landscape ' -  'Country ' )   but also 'in ' us .   They where not aware of 'genetics' but passed on traits to offspring  would have been obvious to them  , as well , they didnt  have a concept of 'genes' , but something similar they called - in a recently adopted 'pidgin'  ; 'germs'  - originating in ' germ baby '  , that is,  'one's essence ' ( pattern ? )  that exists  before the combining of male and female to create offspring ; one example is ;  due to certain conditions coinciding  , a man may feel a 'germ baby ' has entered into him (eg. from a special waterhole or other significant place like a spring   ... usually where water comes out  .... as they are associated with the Rainbow Serpent Creator , coming out from underground and the underground water following   ( as opposed to where it  dived through the surface back down  into the underground , eg. a soak  ) .  He would then take the germ baby home and tell his wife that he had a germ baby for her . She could take it into her body and the germ would multiply and grow .

 

- Certain waterholes and special places where deemed  (and this is not just in Australia , other traditions hold this as well * )  'increase sites'   for other species as well . These hold the archetypal  pattern of that animal and seem to generate species  fecundity , which is why they are protected especially and have guardians to  to learn, study , protect and manage them (ie. by one's totem ) .

 

*  Eg In the NW corner of Sth America , a team of scientists  from various places where managing an ecological repair  attempt . It had some success but not enough to reverse some  losses , regardless of the science they employed .  Then they consulted  some indigenous for input , learnt about their concept of sacred increase sites that are not to be interfered with and implemented that . They found that, not only did it help , but it enabled their own system of  remedies  to address the problems development was causing .  They re-arranged some  targeted areas , making some available for  further development and the increase sites and other significant ecologies they had already targeted, off limits . They reported that with this addition , the  plan they first put into action was now working.

[Nungali]

Hmmm   Magic  AND  Psychology   ...... together  ? 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_Regardie 

[Neirong]

5 hours ago, blue eyed snake said:

grin

 

the discussion above is sort of what I meant that i try to stop interpreting and storytelling about 'practice' or 'spiritual development'

the Dao that can be talked about is not the real Dao

Classical example of discussions here.

"Hey, guys I got completely scammed and this practice is a waste of time"

- "Yeah, how?"

"I bought this stupid device for 1500 euros, and it is less effective than a 2 euro tool from a local shop"
"Can't you all see that 2 euro hammer is much better at hitting nails in the wood, than this stupid iPhone device?"
"Only delusional people waste so much time and resources to acquire iPhone, when they can get a simple hammer, and have all they need in life, in real world"

Whole next year arguing what is better at hitting nails and why factual evidence of nail piercing the wood is the only thing that can prove value of a tool.

[snowymountains]

3 hours ago, Neirong said:

Classical example of discussions here.

"Hey, guys I got completely scammed and this practice is a waste of time"

- "Yeah, how?"

"I bought this stupid device for 1500 euros, and it is less effective than a 2 euro tool from a local shop"
"Can't you all see that 2 euro hammer is much better at hitting nails in the wood, than this stupid iPhone device?"
"Only delusional people waste so much time and resources to acquire iPhone, when they can get a simple hammer, and have all they need in life, in real world"

Whole next year arguing what is better at hitting nails and why factual evidence of nail piercing the wood is the only thing that can prove value of a tool.

 

Only in your analogy, the devices of therapy and mysticism use the same tools, regressions, active imagination/journeying, dreamwork etc and the one that works much better is therapy ( analytical psychology being the closest analogue ).

 

One of the reasons it works better is exactly because it doesn't use superstition.

 

[snowymountains]

5 hours ago, Apotheose said:

 

Oh okay, I thought you believed. I assumed it wrongly then.

 

You refer to “magical” as ‘metaphysical’, right? I’m asking this because I’m afraid our conceptions of magic are distinct. Magic is not Mysticism per se, it’s just a chunk of it.

 

I agree with you in some points. There are some things about mysticism that can indeed be mastered by a cultured psychotherapist, mainly those which cover the relationship between the conscious and the unconscious. Because in the end of the day, it’s not the ‘means’ that matter, it’s the result. It doesn’t matter if its comprehended via mystical or psychological studies; the ‘path’ is not always what determines the result.

 

So, if you don’t believe in mysticism, I assume you don’t believe in a God/Creator as well, or do you?

Also, if someone happen to tell you something about Siddhis, like telekinesis… you wouldn’t believe that at all, right?

Finally, do you think consciousness have been submitted to Evolution (Darwin) throughout the years?

 

Telekinesis, flying ( without an f35 😁) etc, they're impossible, so no, I don't believe in them.

 

Other things which are internal , not physical phenomena, need interpretation, eg above I've said a few things of past life memories.

 

In the sense described above yes past life memories can definitely exist, but they may not be literal past lives, they could however potentially be a form of encoding for intergenerational trauma.

For me that's impressive on its own and connecting with these unconscious "memories" is a very interesting process. It's amazing stuff but not literally magical.

[snowymountains]

6 hours ago, Nungali said:

In some Aboriginal systems 'past life awareness' and 'genetic memory '  seem the same thing .  Simply ; one could have been one's great grandfather .  ' The ancestors live around us (as themselves ; that is , they are able to appear , seemingly from their original form , in various ways , symbols and methods - in 'landscape ' -  'Country ' )   but also 'in ' us .   They where not aware of 'genetics' but passed on traits to offspring  would have been obvious to them  , as well , they didnt  have a concept of 'genes' , but something similar they called - in a recently adopted 'pidgin'  ; 'germs'  - originating in ' germ baby '  , that is,  'one's essence ' ( pattern ? )  that exists  before the combining of male and female to create offspring ; one example is ;  due to certain conditions coinciding  , a man may feel a 'germ baby ' has entered into him (eg. from a special waterhole or other significant place like a spring   ... usually where water comes out  .... as they are associated with the Rainbow Serpent Creator , coming out from underground and the underground water following   ( as opposed to where it  dived through the surface back down  into the underground , eg. a soak  ) .  He would then take the germ baby home and tell his wife that he had a germ baby for her . She could take it into her body and the germ would multiply and grow .

 

- Certain waterholes and special places where deemed  (and this is not just in Australia , other traditions hold this as well * )  'increase sites'   for other species as well . These hold the archetypal  pattern of that animal and seem to generate species  fecundity , which is why they are protected especially and have guardians to  to learn, study , protect and manage them (ie. by one's totem ) .

 

*  Eg In the NW corner of Sth America , a team of scientists  from various places where managing an ecological repair  attempt . It had some success but not enough to reverse some  losses , regardless of the science they employed .  Then they consulted  some indigenous for input , learnt about their concept of sacred increase sites that are not to be interfered with and implemented that . They found that, not only did it help , but it enabled their own system of  remedies  to address the problems development was causing .  They re-arranged some  targeted areas , making some available for  further development and the increase sites and other significant ecologies they had already targeted, off limits . They reported that with this addition , the  plan they first put into action was now working.

 

The part were past life memories can be something linked to ancestral experiences ( not the memories being the experiences themselves necessarily ), so intergenerational, is certainly interesting. Eg intergenerational trauma is something real, these experiences are encoded.

 

I've got some books on aboriginal cosmology, dreamtime, it's extremely interesting unfortunately haven't had the time to read most of them properly yet.

I hope one day I'll be able to visit them, I'm a junkie for stuff and info related to indigenous habits and cultures.

 

Consulting indigenous for the ecosystem they live in and know better than anyone makes sense.

Ecology is not area where I have expertise, I remember a documentary though which mentioned efforts by researchers to change the policies of governments around this and their point was simple, they know the ecosystem they live in better than outsiders, listen to them.

[snowymountains]

11 hours ago, Nungali said:

 

 

OR 

 

' Genetic memory'  ?

 

[  " Neuroscientific research on mice suggests that some experiences can influence subsequent generations. In a 2013 study,^[3][4] mice trained to fear a specific smell passed on their trained aversion to their descendants, which were then extremely sensitive and fearful of the same smell, even though they had never encountered it, nor been trained to fear it.

Changes in brain structure were also found. The researchers concluded that "the experiences of a parent, even before conceiving, markedly influence both structure and function in the nervous system of subsequent generations".^[5]

Scientists speculate that similar genetic mechanisms could be linked with phobias, anxiety, and post-traumatic stress disorders, as well as other neuropsychiatric disorders, in humans.^{[citation needed] "}

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_memory_(psychology)

 

 

 

That's what I was alluding to, hence the reference to intergenerational trauma. It's really amazing.