alchemy How does it work?

[Sleepy Bluejay]

Lets make things clear for all new members to come.

How does the alchemy of internal alchemy work in your practice? Don't give me a simple answer like the "one makes two and two becomes three" sort of BS, give a reasonable answer.

For an example:

 

1. How the alchemy works in my theology; you use the sense of touch/feeling to guide the mixed energy of the three treasures called "vital energy", to form the circuit of the spiritual body. The sense of touch/feeling is retrieved by the brain so you start from the head (Shen). Form the head circuit and Shen area with vital energy.
    
2. When head circuit and Shen area is done, form the meridian that is connected to where you store the mixed vital energy, in the Qi area. Once there is enough vital energy in the Qi area, use it to form the circuit of the chest and upper back.
    
3. When chest and upper back circuit as well as the Qi area is done, form the meridian that is connected to where you store the mixed vital energy, in the Jing area. Once there is enough vital energy in the Jing area, use it to form the circuit of the belly and lower back.

 

After all that, you would need a filtering technique to sort out the mixed vital energy into the areas they belong (Shen, Qi, Jing). This technique should start from Qi and not Shen because Qi is Balance of Yin and Yang (therefore: Qi, Jing and then Shen).

 

And at last you'll need a refinement technique (which is what you are most likely doing with your Qigong). You starts from Jing because the nature of Jing is Yang and that refinement of the three treasure can be done similar to what is seen in a distillation diagram.

 

Remember to include as much details and reasoning you can, so that others can fully grasp it.

[Sleepy Bluejay]

@Taoist Texts

Rather than laughing, would you like to explain the alchemy/system behind your practice in details?

[Taoist Texts]

26 minutes ago, Sleepy Bluejay said:

@Taoist Texts

Rather than laughing, would you like to explain the alchemy/system behind your practice in details?

hey man. i approve of your enthusiasm. what you were proposing earlier is qigong . nothing wrong with qigong. its a nice pastime with placebo benefits. its just not alchemy.

 

as to explaining alchemy, it is a tricky thing. first of all maybe 10 men in the whole world can do it, and of them probably only i can explain it in reasonable terms. of course i am not going to do it publicly. second of all when alchemy is reasonably explained  peeps flat out refuse to understand it. They can understand it. They just dont want to. Here is the beginning work, see if you want to

 

 

[Apotheose]

Well, in my perspective, I consider Alchemy as being the process of transforming the “base metal” of ignorance into the “gold” of Knowledge.

 

Some methodologies are logical and some are illogical - in a sense that you may or may not rationally understand what is happening.

 

I can see that your tradition offers a logical explanation of attaining “gold”. An example of a tradition who does not offer that would be some strands of Yoga. You don’t actually understand logically what is truly happening - as you just described from your tradition -, you just practice it with discipline and start experiencing shifts of consciousness and maturing.

 

So my answer would be that I have had experiences in traditions which do not offer such logical explanations, but just a methodology for you to practice and get better.

 

About Qi Gong… I really don’t want to be a killjoy here… But I’m still very new to the forum and still can’t discern what is a joke and what’s not… … But seeing someone saying it is a placebo and insinuating he is one of the few in the world who can explain it seems very suspect to me. Be always careful about people who point fingers at your esoteric practices, generally these kind of comments are full of egoistic repressed feelings. I am totally ignorant about Qi Gong and have never practiced it, but i guarantee you that comments like these are - per se - very suspect, regardless of what tradition they are from. Qi Gong is a traditional practice, and someone saying it’s not legitimate in a forum is a red flag. Keep up your practices if they are bringing results to you. 

Edited January 30 by Apotheose

[Sleepy Bluejay]

9 minutes ago, Apotheose said:

Well, in my perspective, I consider Alchemy as being the process of transforming the “base metal” of ignorance into the “gold” of Knowledge.

 

Some methodologies are logical and some are illogical - in a sense that you may or may not rationally understand what is happening.

 

I can see that your tradition offers a logical explanation of attaining “gold”. An example of a tradition who does not offer that would be some strands of Yoga. You don’t actually understand logically what is truly happening - as you just described from your tradition -, you just practice it with discipline and start experiencing shifts of consciousness and maturing.

 

So my answer would be that I have had experiences in traditions which do not offer such logical explanations, but just a methodology for you to practice and get better.

 

About Qi Gong… I really don’t want to be a killjoy here… But I’m still very new to the forum and still can’t discern what is a joke and what’s not… … But seeing someone saying it is a placebo and insinuating he is one of the few in the world who can explain it seems to me very suspect to me. Be always careful about people who point fingers at your esoteric practices, generally these kind of comments are full of egoistic repressed feelings. I am totally ignorant about Qi Gong and have never practiced it, but i guarantee you that comments like these are very suspect, regardless of what tradition they are from. Qi Gong is a traditional practice, and someone saying it’s not in a forum is a red flag. Keep up your practices if they are bringing results to you. 

Well I do agree with @Taoist Texts that Qigong is more likely a placebo, but I also think you can at least use it to learn and master the control over the energy while moving around, rather than only being able to do it while sitting down.

 

BTW did you know that Western alchemy is chemistry related, where Eastern more medicine related?

[Apotheose]

4 minutes ago, Sleepy Bluejay said:

Well I do agree with @Taoist Texts that Qigong is more likely a placebo, but I also think you can at least use it to learn and master the control over the energy while moving around, rather than only being able to do it while sitting down.

 

BTW did you know that Western alchemy is chemistry related, where Eastern more medicine related?

 

Yes  … “newbie” things from here…

 

Just after I posted it I realised it is on “Daoist Discussion” and I’m saying things related to Western Esotericism 

[snowymountains]

No clue on alchemy, nor Qigong but placebo is not something to be dismissed by merely using it as a label.

 

One could call placebo eg pain going away by believing a false assertion and dismiss it, despite that it did do something without medication.

 

Or they could call a similar technique to increase athletic performance advanced autogenics training ( sounds more impressive )

 

The most extreme "placebo" I'm aware of is a psychiatrist who was also fond of hypnosis.

One day he had peritonitis, something which typically causes people to scream from pain and can't move freely.

Nonetheless, he put himself in hypnosis and didn't feel pain, which allowed him to walk to the hospital and live, instead of dying in pain.

 

When it works folks use different names though, "placebo" is specially reserved to dismiss it.

Edited January 30 by snowymountains

[Cobie]

12 hours ago, Sleepy Bluejay said:

How does … internal alchemy work in your practice? …

manage emotions and move beyond them into the one light

 

Edited January 30 by Cobie

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

4 hours ago, Apotheose said:

But seeing someone saying it is a placebo and insinuating he is one of the few in the world who can explain it seems very suspect to me. Be always careful about people who point fingers at your esoteric practices, generally these kind of comments are full of egoistic repressed feelings. I am totally ignorant about Qi Gong and have never practiced it, but i guarantee you that comments like these are - per se - very suspect, regardless of what tradition they are from. Qi Gong is a traditional practice, and someone saying it’s not legitimate in a forum is a red flag. 

You are 100% correct about him. Just ignore and stay on topic.

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

@Sleepy Bluejay you can read about the process in my practice here:

 

https://authenticneigong.com/course-overview

 

https://authenticneigong.com/neigong

[Nintendao]

i’ve been told by both a cranky taiwanese grandma and an ascended jewish doctor that not a lot can be done with alchemy until one achieves yang within yin, that is to say, remaining conscious while the body is asleep. sometimes called trance, it’s a different thing to lucid dreaming. those energy flows perceived as various vibratory sensations, when the five normal senses are mostly offline, take on a new coherence.

[Sleepy Bluejay]

11 hours ago, -ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ- said:

@Sleepy Bluejay you can read about the process in my practice here:

 

https://authenticneigong.com/course-overview

 

https://authenticneigong.com/neigong

So to understand this fully, you start with moving Qi or vital energy to the true Jing dantian, then expand the channels with it?

Do you use the mind to concentrate on the energy to guide it downward or how does this work?

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

5 minutes ago, Sleepy Bluejay said:

So to understand this fully, you start with moving Qi or vital energy to the true Jing dantian, then expand the channels with it?

Do you use the mind to concentrate on the energy to guide it downward or how does this work?

You don’t force it down, just keep your mind focus on lower dantien, and keep your breath as low as possible in your lower abdomen. Stick your belly out when you inhale, pull it in when you exhale and keep your chest completely still when you are breathing. 
 

We do have practices that help to correct the flow of qi through your channels, but don’t actively lead qi through them.

[Sleepy Bluejay]

1 hour ago, -ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ- said:

You don’t force it down, just keep your mind focus on lower dantien, and keep your breath as low as possible in your lower abdomen. Stick your belly out when you inhale, pull it in when you exhale and keep your chest completely still when you are breathing. 
 

We do have practices that help to correct the flow of qi through your channels, but don’t actively lead qi through them.

Okay

So you use your mind to focus on the lower dantian (Jing) and the energy comes from your small intestines (where the lower dantian is located).

 

Does that mean using the mind (Shen energy[1]) to focus on the small intestines area to transmute it into Jing (Jing Energy[2])and form the lower dantian (Jing dantian[A]) via the spins nerve system, to then refine Jing (Jing energy[2]) to transmute it into Qi (Qi energy[3]) and use it to form the Qi dantian (Qi dantian(B)), that then use the energy of the lower dantian (Jing energy[2]) and the middle dantian (Qi energy[3]) refine it to transmute it into Shen (Shen energy[1]) and use Shen to form the upper dantian area (Shen dantian[C])?

 

so: [1] -> [2] => [A], [2] -> [3] => (B), [2] + [3] -> [1] => [C]

-> means transmute.

=> means to become.

Edited January 31 by Sleepy Bluejay

[Sleepy Bluejay]

Sorry it toke a while to make the "mathematical formula" make sense

Edited January 31 by Sleepy Bluejay

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

55 minutes ago, Sleepy Bluejay said:

Okay

So you use your mind to focus on the lower dantian (Jing) and the energy comes from your small intestines (where the lower dantian is located).

 

Does that mean using the mind (Shen energy[1]) to focus on the small intestines area to transmute it into Jing (Jing Energy[2])and form the lower dantian (Jing dantian[A]) via the spins nerve system, to then refine Jing (Jing energy[2]) to transmute it into Qi (Qi energy[3]) and use it to form the Qi dantian (Qi dantian(B)), that then use the energy of the lower dantian (Jing energy[2]) and the middle dantian (Qi energy[3]) refine it to transmute it into Shen (Shen energy[1]) and use Shen to form the upper dantian area (Shen dantian[C])?

 

so: [1] -> [2] => [A], [2] -> [3] => (B), [2] + [3] -> [1] => [C]

-> means transmute.

=> means to become.

 

5 minutes ago, Sleepy Bluejay said:

Sorry it toke a while to make the "mathematical formula" make sense

You are massively overcomplicating things, just keep it simple:

 

Jing>Qi>Shen

 

We are not using Shen at the start, just converting Jing into Qi, and also consolidating Qi into the LDT to fill it up. It doesn’t matter what exact channels they are coming from, we want as much as we can get from anywhere to make it full. 
 

You don’t need to concentrate on any path to lead it to the LDT, just focus on the LDT itself. There is no need to guide the qi, it will take the path it is meant to, just focus your mind at the end destination: the LDT.

 

Then after the LDT is activated and filling up, you start to refine the qi for use in other things, like bringing it upwards to the middle or upper dantien, MCO etc.

[Sleepy Bluejay]

16 minutes ago, -ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ- said:

 

You are massively overcomplicating things, just keep it simple:

 

Jing>Qi>Shen

 

We are not using Shen at the start, just converting Jing into Qi, and also consolidating Qi into the LDT to fill it up. It doesn’t matter what exact channels they are coming from, we want as much as we can get from anywhere to make it full. 
 

You don’t need to concentrate on any path to lead it to the LDT, just focus on the LDT itself. There is no need to guide the qi, it will take the path it is meant to, just focus your mind at the end destination: the LDT.

 

Then after the LDT is activated and filling up, you start to refine the qi for use in other things, like bringing it upwards to the middle or upper dantien, MCO etc.

Um, actually, *nerdy grunt* the brain uses energy to think and concentrate.

This energy you use for thinking and concentration is an electrical type of energy/signal which makes it Yin in nature, rather than kinetic energy that is Yang in nature (Jing is Yang in nature).

 

The reason for being "over-complicating about things" is to understand the Tao of Neidan/Neigong in depth.

Edited January 31 by Sleepy Bluejay

[Sleepy Bluejay]

1 hour ago, -ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ- said:

 

You are massively overcomplicating things, just keep it simple:

 

Jing>Qi>Shen

 

We are not using Shen at the start, just converting Jing into Qi, and also consolidating Qi into the LDT to fill it up. It doesn’t matter what exact channels they are coming from, we want as much as we can get from anywhere to make it full. 
 

You don’t need to concentrate on any path to lead it to the LDT, just focus on the LDT itself. There is no need to guide the qi, it will take the path it is meant to, just focus your mind at the end destination: the LDT.

 

Then after the LDT is activated and filling up, you start to refine the qi for use in other things, like bringing it upwards to the middle or upper dantien, MCO etc.

If my understanding of your technique is correct, then your technique should kinda be compatible with mine. It could be used as a great refinement-technique once you finish sorting/filtering the energy to where they belong.

 

One of the differences is that your technique relies on the idea of that you already have the circuits of the spiritual body.
Where in my technique it is believed that you don't have the spiritual body's circuits yet and that you start with a seed of consciousness instead.

Edited January 31 by Sleepy Bluejay

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

1 hour ago, Sleepy Bluejay said:

If my understanding of your technique is correct, then your technique should kinda be compatible with mine. It could be used as a great refinement-technique once you finish sorting/filtering the energy to where they belong.

 

One of the differences is that your technique relies on the idea of that you already have the circuits of the spiritual body.
Where in my technique it is believed that you don't have the spiritual body's circuits yet and that you start with a seed of consciousness instead.

You should talk to @effilang about Xiao Yao Pai and the way they use a Shen>Qi>Jing approach, maybe there are similarities in what you both are doing 

[Sleepy Bluejay]

34 minutes ago, -ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ- said:

You should talk to @effilang about Xiao Yao Pai and the way they use a Shen>Qi>Jing approach, maybe there are similarities in what you both are doing 

@effilang Please come to thee' tread for we summon you! Oooh great spirit! Share you endless knowledge with us, guide thy new born lamps to the path of glory!

 

How does the alchemy work in your practice?

Edited January 31 by Sleepy Bluejay

[Nintendao]

in the meantime here is a wealth of material from them 🤗

 

[ChiDragon]

8 hours ago, -ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ- said:

You don’t force it down, just keep your mind focus on lower dantien, and keep your breath as low as possible in your lower abdomen. Stick your belly out when you inhale, pull it in when you exhale and keep your chest completely still when you are breathing. 

Whatever his name is. He is the one that knows what he is talking about!
Those who want to know what Qigong is all about? Sink chi to the dantian(LDT). This is how it was done. It doesn't matter what kind of Qigong one is practicing, this is the fundamental breathing routine that everyone must go through. Without this breathing routine, nothing could be accomplished in any method.

[ChiDragon]

24．.....师答曰。夫道以无心为体。忘言为用。以柔弱为本。以清静为基。若施于人。必节饮食。绝思虑。静坐以调息。安寝以养炁。心不驰则性定。形不劳则精全。神不扰则丹结。然后灭情于虚。宁神于极。

The teacher said:
No intention is the fundamental basis. Forgetting the words(silence) is the function. Based on the softness and tranquility, if passed onto others, one must go on diet and forget all the worries. Zazen to regulate the breathing and laid down to preserve chi(养炁).

If the heart is not disturbed, then, it is at rest. If the body is not busy, then the jing is full. If the soul has no worries, then the dan(丹) has formed. Hereinafter, enter the emptiness by getting rid of all the desires. Hence, Ning Shen(宁神) is at the highest state.

Edited January 31 by ChiDragon
Add the (silence) in bold.

[snowymountains]

4 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

24．.....师答曰。夫道以无心为体。忘言为用。以柔弱为本。以清静为基。若施于人。必节饮食。绝思虑。静坐以调息。安寝以养炁。心不驰则性定。形不劳则精全。神不扰则丹结。然后灭情于虚。宁神于极。

The teacher said:
No intention is the fundamental basis. Forgetting the words is the function. Based on the softness and tranquility, if passed onto others, one must go on diet and forget all the worries. Zazen to regulate the breathing and laid down to preserve chi(养炁).

If the heart is not disturbed, then, it is at rest. If the body is not busy, then the jing is full. If the soul has no worries, then the dan(丹) has formed. Hereinafter, enter the emptiness by getting rid of all the desires. Hence, Ning Shen(宁神) is at the highest state.

 

This is interesting, what is the textual reference?

 

This sounds rather similar to the standard stages in several meditation traditions, in text above each stage is linked to a daoist alchemy concept.

[Mark Foote]

On 1/30/2024 at 5:52 AM, Taoist Texts said:

hey man. i approve of your enthusiasm. what you were proposing earlier is qigong . nothing wrong with qigong. its a nice pastime with placebo benefits. its just not alchemy.

 

as to explaining alchemy, it is a tricky thing. first of all maybe 10 men in the whole world can do it, and of them probably only i can explain it in reasonable terms. of course i am not going to do it publicly. second of all when alchemy is reasonably explained  peeps flat out refuse to understand it. They can understand it. They just dont want to. Here is the beginning work, see if you want to

 

 

Using Google translate, which may or may not be accurate, I find the following points salient:

 

If the mind is not relaxed, the nature will be fixed. If the form is not labored, it will be perfect. If the gods do not disturb you, the elixir will be knotted. ... It can be said that you never leave the house.

 

 

I also partly agree with the post by Nintendao:

 

Quote

i’ve been told by both a cranky taiwanese grandma and an ascended jewish doctor that not a lot can be done with alchemy until one achieves yang within yin, that is to say, remaining conscious while the body is asleep. sometimes called trance, it’s a different thing to lucid dreaming. those energy flows perceived as various vibratory sensations, when the five normal senses are mostly offline, take on a new coherence.
 

"If the mind is not relaxed, the nature will be fixed."  Gautama spoke of a "station of consciousness":
 

That which we will…, and that which we intend to do and that wherewithal we are occupied:–this becomes an object for the persistance of consciousness. The object being there, there comes to be a station of consciousness. Consciousness being stationed and growing, rebirth of renewed existence takes place in the future, and here from birth, decay, and death, grief, lamenting, suffering, sorrow, and despair come to pass. Such is the uprising of this mass of ill.
 

Even if we do not will, or intend to do, and yet are occupied with something, this too becomes an object for the persistance of consciousness… whence birth… takes place.
 

But if we neither will, nor intend to do, nor are occupied about something, there is no becoming of an object for the persistance of consciousness. The object being absent, there comes to be no station of consciousness. Consciousness not being stationed and growing, no rebirth of renewed existence takes place in the future, and herefrom birth, decay-and-death, grief, lamenting, suffering, sorrow and despair cease. Such is the ceasing of this entire mass of ill.
 

(SN II 65, Pali Text Society SN Vol II pg 45)

 

My approach:

 

Just before I fall asleep, my awareness can move very readily, and my sense of where I am tends to move with it. This is also true when I am waking up, although it can be harder to recognize (I tend to live through my eyes in the daytime, and associate my sense of place with them). When my awareness shifts readily, I realize that my ability to feel my location in space is made possible in part by the freedom of my awareness to move.
 

I sometimes overlook my location in space because I attach to what I’m feeling, or I’m averse to it, or I ignore it. The result is that I lose the freedom of my awareness to shift and move, and I have difficulty relaxing or staying alert. When I allow what I feel to enter into where I am, then my awareness remains free, and I can relax and keep my wits about me.

(Waking Up and Falling Asleep)

 

 

That's similar to the approach in lucid dreaming--a presence of mind must be retained in the moments before falling asleep, but unlike lucid dreaming, the idea here is to discover the placement of attention by necessity in the movement of breath, and retain a presence of mind with that placement as the placement shifts and moves.

The necessity may be in the movement of breath itself, or with regard to support for the structure of the spine in the movement of breath.  Actually, the necessity may even be coming from perceptions of things beyond the conscious boundaries of the senses, but that's another topic.

On "the elixir will be knotted"--I recently outlined "the scales" of my practice, on my site--note that the attention placed by necessity in the movement of breath has a singular location, a "one-pointedness":
 

... the scales are:  looking for a grip where attention takes place in the body, as “one-pointedness” turns and engenders a counter-turn (without losing the freedom of movement of attention); finding ligaments that control reciprocal innervation in the lower body and along the spine through relaxation, and calming the stretch of ligaments; and discovering hands, feet, and teeth together with “one-pointedness” (“bite through here”, as Yuanwu advised; “then we can walk together hand in hand”, as Yuanwu’s teacher Wu Tsu advised).

 

 

When the necessity of the moment becomes the relaxation of muscles in the lower abdomen and the calming of the stretch of ligaments in the lower body, especially at the sacroiliac joints, there can be a sensation for which "knotted" is a colorful description.

As to "It can be said that you never leave the house".  Gautama spoke about four initial stages of concentration--I describe the way I experience the first three above, in my description of "scales" (like musical scales).  As to the fourth:

 

The flow of “doing something” in the body, of activity initiated by habit or volition, ceases in the fourth concentration.  Instead, activity is generated purely by the placement of attention, and the location of attention can flow.

 

Again, a [person], putting away ease… enters and abides in the fourth musing; seated, [one] suffuses [one’s] body with purity by the pureness of [one’s] mind so that there is not one particle of the body that is not pervaded with purity by the pureness of [one’s] mind.
 

(AN III 25-28, Pali Text Society Vol. III p 18-19, see also MN III 92-93; bracketed material paraphrases original)
 

“Pureness of mind” is what remains when “doing something” ceases.  When “doing something” has ceased, and there is “not one particle of the body” that cannot receive the placement of attention, then the placement of attention is free to shift as necessary in the movement of breath.

...The difficulty is that most people will lose consciousness before they cede activity to the location of attention–they lose the presence of mind with the placement of attention, because they can’t believe that action in the body is possible without “doing something”...

When a presence of mind is retained as the placement of attention shifts, then the natural tendency toward the free placement of attention can draw out thought initial and sustained, and bring on the stages of concentration...

 

(Shunryu Suzuki on Shikantaza and the Theravadin Stages)

 

 

And you never have to leave home, in that "the stage of concentration that lends itself to practice in the moment is dependent on the tendency toward the free placement of attention."

My take:  "I practice now to experience the free placement of attention as the sole source of activity in the body in the movement of breath, and in my “complicated, difficult” daily life, I look for the mindfulness that allows me to touch on that freedom" (“To Enjoy Our Life”).
 

Edited February 1 by Mark Foote