alchemy How does it work?

[snowymountains]

2 minutes ago, Keith108 said:

 

I guess it's the direction of the disagreement that is important to me. Why am I disagreeing? It's important to reflect on why we are doing things.

 

The only reason to voice a disagreement is if the point being countered is hurtful to the person or another person. I don't agree with questioning what people believe, no matter how unbelievable it may seem. Why? Because I don't know.

 

A case: 

 

Dizang asked Fayan, “Where are you going?”

Fayan said, “I am wandering aimlessly.”

“What do you think of wandering?”

“I don’t know.”

“Not knowing is most intimate.”

Fayan was suddenly awakened.

 

Mitchell's Translation of Verse 71 of the DDJ begins with:

 

Not-knowing is true knowledge.
Presuming to know is a disease.
 

Reading this thread about alchemy does test my limits of what seems possible. But, believing or not believing are both beliefs. Not knowing is truly most intimate. 

 

_/|\_

 

It's not.

 

To give an example there was someone here who had a porn addiction here and was asking what to do "energetically".

I'm actually not referring to the fact that some folks did suggest "cheap energetic healings" ( aka spells ) instead of visiting a psychotherapist.

I'm referring to that someone actually even thought about resolving an issue which needs therapy in a forum about Taoism. Because if fireballs definitely happen and infinite life is surely possible, then porn addiction is surely treated easily.

 

I've actually known someone who almost died because of belief in BS like that, and ultimately did pay a dear price while if instead they were listening to their doctors from the get go they would have had a simple operation and a healthy life.

I can think of other cases too, with Tummo side-effects, where the all knowing guru vanished ( who likes lawsuits after all ) but the spiritually blind doctors saved them. Another one where "divination courses" caused a psychosis.

And more.

 

If something is unfounded, it's unfounded, those who support it cannot expect to have a monopoly on speaking about it.

[Maddie]

1 minute ago, snowymountains said:

 

It's not.

 

To give an example there was someone here who had a porn addiction here and was asking what to do "energetically".

I'm actually not referring to the fact that some folks did suggest "cheap energetic healings" ( aka spells ) instead of visiting a psychotherapist.

I'm referring to that someone actually even thought about resolving an issue which needs therapy in a forum about Taoism. Because if fireballs definitely happen and infinite life is surely possible, then porn addiction is surely treated easily.

 

I've actually known someone who almost died because of belief in BS like that, and ultimately did pay a dear price while if instead they were listening to their doctors from the get go they would have had a simple operation and a healthy life.

I can think of other cases too, with Tummo side-effects, where the all knowing guru vanished ( who likes lawsuits after all ) but the spiritually blind doctors saved them. Another one where "divination courses" caused a psychosis.

And more.

 

If something is unfounded, it's unfounded, those who support it cannot expect to have a monopoly on speaking about it.

 

Questioning things and not taking them at face value it was absolutely what the Buddha was about.

[Keith108]

59 minutes ago, snowymountains said:

 

It's not.

 

To give an example there was someone here who had a porn addiction here and was asking what to do "energetically".

I'm actually not referring to the fact that some folks did suggest "cheap energetic healings" ( aka spells ) instead of visiting a psychotherapist.

I'm referring to that someone actually even thought about resolving an issue which needs therapy in a forum about Taoism. Because if fireballs definitely happen and infinite life is surely possible, then porn addiction is surely treated easily.

 

I've actually known someone who almost died because of belief in BS like that, and ultimately did pay a dear price while if instead they were listening to their doctors from the get go they would have had a simple operation and a healthy life.

I can think of other cases too, with Tummo side-effects, where the all knowing guru vanished ( who likes lawsuits after all ) but the spiritually blind doctors saved them. Another one where "divination courses" caused a psychosis.

And more.

 

If something is unfounded, it's unfounded, those who support it cannot expect to have a monopoly on speaking about it.

 

Please re-read the second sentence I wrote. We are actually in agreement. 

 

Again, this is why i hesitate to bring up Buddhist practice here. 

 

I'll bow out here.

 

_/|\_

[thelerner]

In my fraternity we had one member be the Naysayer.  Their job was to vote against everything.  It was an important position because being like minded friendly people we tended to vote together.  Slowing things down and having a disagree-er kept us from falling into complacency.  

 

In this day and age pleasant disagreement and polite discussion is quite refreshing.

 

 

 

addon>  I read that an ancient Jewish custom was that if all the judges agreed on a verdict the person would go free because something probably wrong due to groupthink.  I only mention it because I'd never heard of it and the coincidence of reading it so soon after posting a modern interpretation.

Edited February 3 by thelerner

[silent thunder]

4 hours ago, Maddie said:

 

I think there has been a misunderstanding of my views because of a straw man that Blue Jay built of me. I am open minded to things that can be supported. Don't let the version that a crazy person constructs of me become the version of me that is believed here. I am simply skeptical in a healthy way of things that can not be supported, which is as it should be in my opinion. 

To me you read as inquisitive, methodical and authentically in pursuit of insight.  And quite impressive in response to provocation.  Respect.

 

3 hours ago, blue eyed snake said:

 

i try not to interprete anymore, interpretation is useless mindtalk, just be

This!  So grateful for your continued presence and sharing here blue eyes.  With all the recent odd posts and outright bullying/attacks, my Storyteller has been in overdrive. 

 

This statement speaks volumes for me. 

Release in presence. 

Acknowledge if thoughts arise. 

Accept, and just be. 

 

The Storyteller will always have a tale...

 

You re-mind me that just because I think something and feel an emotion, doesn't mean it's real, true or important... they're just thoughts.  Don't believe everything I think...

 

Release into being. 

What teaching is more complete

than to just sit down?

 

*deep bow of gratitude*

 

 

[Nungali]

On 02/02/2024 at 12:52 PM, ChiDragon said:

Breathe, just breathe for good health.

Isn't that lucky that Qigong helped me to survive after 6.3 minutes without losing my breath?

 

 

 

How did you get that sword to make music like that ? 

 

[Nungali]

11 hours ago, Sleepy Bluejay said:

I thought this was theDaobums, a spiritual forum.

 

All sorts of spiritual 'thingos'   *    kick out  'certain people ' .

 

* monasteries , congregations, organisations ,  etc .

 

I am running late in this thread  .... I just saw the 'consequences of  certain actions' .

 

 

 

 

[Nungali]

11 hours ago, Maddie said:

life goes on in spite of haters. 

 

 

Thank you for staying here on DBs Maddie and helping us get through these rare but sometimes ( but certainly,  too often ) unpleasant and unevolved moments .

 

[Nungali]

10 hours ago, Sleepy Bluejay said:

I know, sorry but I refuse to say sorry when others think they aren't at fault for anything they did or said. Why should I be sorry when they aren't?

 

Ummmm ... to become master of your own destiny and not be pushed around by what you perceive others are 'doing to you ' .

 

( Just in case you access this from the public entry ) .

[Nungali]

8 hours ago, blue eyed snake said:

 

what a sweet lady

 

 

 

 

 " Yessss   ... a dear dear sweet lady " 

 

 

 

 

Spoiler

That is Vincent Price , if you could not tell .

 

[snowymountains]

5 hours ago, Keith108 said:

 

Please re-read the second sentence I wrote. We are actually in agreement. 

 

Again, this is why i hesitate to bring up Buddhist practice here. 

 

I'll bow out here.

 

_/|\_

 

Indeed 🙂 but wanted to show why both commenting and not-commenting have their disadvantages.

If it came across as countering you or your post in specific, apologies.

 

Agreed that discussing Buddhist practice here is not a good idea. On the other hand, at least personally, I find discussion of personal practice to be helpful only with a teacher, because they're the ones who know how to measure progression, challenges at current level, what's ahead etc.

What is interesting is a higher level discussion for Buddhism, but agreed, I'm not sure it's the right place for that either, one of the reasons being that it will turn into a superpowers discussion.

[Nungali]

8 hours ago, Elysium said:

Gotta say, as someone who can't find a teacher right at the moment, I am kinda worried.

 

Last thing I want to end up is like OP. Seems like all that energy messed with his head.

 

Or he was messed up to begin with.

 

Is this the fate of all solo practitioners?

 

 

Great questions .   I dont think it is the fate of ALL of them . It does beg the question though , should potent systems / techniques be taught to the 'mentally unstable ' ?  A can of worms in so many ways .

 

I had to debate on that in the system I was in . One person high up in the organisation ( who was also a psychiatric nurse ) thought they should be , as they had the 'right' .

 

I thought they should not be , or at least that decision on it should be made by their sponsors  ( two where required to gain membership ) who should know well the situation and extent of things .   if it goes wrong then it should be up to the sponsors to take  're-sponsor - ability '   for whatever happens and help resolve it .

 

Also an organisation or teacher should take responsibility  if things go wrong with people THEY have admitted . But I know this is not always the case .

 

Still, what has a solo practitioner got equivalent to this ?

[snowymountains]

7 hours ago, Maddie said:

 

We did seem to get a bunch of self-proclaimed unquestionable guru's in here lately didn't we? all around the same time?

 

Yes indeed and both were accounts created at the same moment, 20/21 Oct.

 

Instead of demonical or energetic factors driving synchronicities, a more prosaic guess is that it's the same person or both are in a common group.

But again, I'll refrain from further speculation.

[Nungali]

5 hours ago, thelerner said:

In my fraternity we had one member be the Naysayer.  Their job was to vote against everything.  It was an important position because being like minded friendly people we tended to vote together.  Slowing things down and having a disagree-er kept us from falling into complacency.  

 

In this day and age pleasant disagreement and polite discussion is quite refreshing.

 

In my groups constitution it arranges for , amidst the levels of 'admin' , to have two 'revolutionaries' to be the 'King's'   'adversaries'  .

[Master Logray]

When we talk about Immortal here, it refers to Taoist Internal Alchemy training only.   Naturally there would be other ways to achieve immortality.   This Taoist system exists roughly 2000 years although its root is longer.    That means the oldest immortals generated from this system is at most 2000 years old.   This is far from the term Immortal means, or the notion of "living forever".    Scientifically, we need to wait until the first fully immortal to die, then we have an idea of their maximum lifespan, provided we can do it.  

[ChiDragon]

On 2/1/2024 at 3:10 PM, snowymountains said:

 

Thank you. How does alchemy differentiate to Qigong for health then in terms of outcomes?

Method may be different but if promised outcome is the same, the two would be fishing in the same pond.

 

You tell me if I tell you this. It is Qigong that helps to accomplish Alchemy. Alchemy has to be performed through Qigong to get the final result. The goal of Qigong is the practice of breathing until the breath reaches down to the abdomen. When it does, you will have a healthy body. You can go to the next stage of practice. Whatever you want to call it. It is your accomplishment. You can call it Alchemy, Qigong or neigong. You still end up with a very strong healthy body. What I'm saying is. To start practice anything，you must start with Qigong to retore and fine tune your body to the ultimate homeostasis.

[Maddie]

2 hours ago, Master Logray said:

When we talk about Immortal here, it refers to Taoist Internal Alchemy training only.   Naturally there would be other ways to achieve immortality.   This Taoist system exists roughly 2000 years although its root is longer.    That means the oldest immortals generated from this system is at most 2000 years old.   This is far from the term Immortal means, or the notion of "living forever".    Scientifically, we need to wait until the first fully immortal to die, then we have an idea of their maximum lifespan, provided we can do it.  

 

How do we know this is true? How do we know the are two thousand year old immortals? 

[liminal_luke]

What is an immortal?  My understanding is that immortals die like everybody else (although they might be long-lived) but something of their consciousness remains intact after death so that there's a sense of seamless continuation as they enter whatever comes next.  It's unlikely the existence of this kind of immortal -- or any other kind -- can be proven scientifically though we might come to feel it's true (or not) as we progress along our spiritual paths.  In the meantime, what is to be gained or lost by believing or disbelieving?  I prefer to rest in the "maybe" state -- open to the wondrous possibilities of life.

[Master Logray]

1 hour ago, Maddie said:

 

How do we know this is true? How do we know the are two thousand year old immortals? 

 

 

Someone collected the number of immortals, who having full names, from old books.  They counted a few hundred.  Another source says it is below one thousand.     If all these are true, there are only a few persons per year maximum.  

[snowymountains]

7 minutes ago, Master Logray said:

 

 

Someone collected the number of immortals, who having full names, from old books.  They counted a few hundred.  Another source says it is below one thousand.     If all these are true, there are only a few persons per year maximum.  

 

Why would old books be accurate on whether someone is immortal?

 

Medieval books are full of stuff we know today to be factually false.

 

It's interesting to study these things theologically, historically etc but taking them at face value is a different thing.

[Master Logray]

3 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

What is an immortal?  My understanding is that immortals die like everybody else (although they might be long-lived) but something of their consciousness remains intact after death so that there's a sense of seamless continuation as they enter whatever comes next.  It's unlikely the existence of this kind of immortal -- or any other kind -- can be proven scientifically though we might come to feel it's true (or not) as we progress along our spiritual paths.  In the meantime, what is to be gained or lost by believing or disbelieving?  I prefer to rest in the "maybe" state -- open to the wondrous possibilities of life.

 

 

The Taoist does have a definition on the types - 5.  You have certainly read about it.   They are not what most people believe if you think about it.

 

Ghost immortals :  technically an intelligent ghost

Heaven immortals : human transformed into another specie.

These 2 are actually no more human.   Counting lifespan is not sensible.   I do believe they have their own lifespan.

 

2 more categories:

Men immortals:  mere human with long age, 100+  (old days lifespan was 40).  This looks like not very impossible nowadays.

Earth immortals: a few hundred years of age, with some abilities.  But they still die.   Science will bring us there one day, probably not too long.

 

Immortals (generally believed) :  This is the genuine one.  They can surpass the limit of a body, appear at will anywhere.  It is said they can live forever but I think there is still a certain limit.

 

So you see being an immortal is not that difficult, and immortals do have lifespan.  They either die or turn into something else.  In a way immortality does not exist. 

 

 

 

 

[snowymountains]

22 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

What is an immortal?  My understanding is that immortals die like everybody else (although they might be long-lived) but something of their consciousness remains intact after death so that there's a sense of seamless continuation as they enter whatever comes next.  It's unlikely the existence of this kind of immortal -- or any other kind -- can be proven scientifically though we might come to feel it's true (or not) as we progress along our spiritual paths.  In the meantime, what is to be gained or lost by believing or disbelieving?  I prefer to rest in the "maybe" state -- open to the wondrous possibilities of life.

 

That sounds more akin an immortality of soul concept though.

 

Of course nobody can prove nor counterprove a statement on what happens after life.

 

It's neither provable nor falsifiable.

 

So each one may well believe ( as opposed to know) whatever they want, which is what's happening, people have different beliefs.

 

The difference is that immortality of the body , or living 1000 years, or fireballs are known ( not believed ) to be false.

Edited February 3 by snowymountains

[Master Logray]

10 minutes ago, snowymountains said:

 

Why would old books be accurate on whether someone is immortal?

 

Medieval books are full of stuff we know today to be factually false.

 

It's interesting to study these things theologically, historically etc but taking them at face value is a different thing.

 

 

That depends on the subject.   For other things you are right.  With so meager information, what can you do?  wholesale believe or not believe?   Or interview one of them?   At least it is a reasonable start.  It is not unlike predicting lifeforms in other planets.  You have to start somewhere.   My conclusion is that the success rate must be very low, given the long history and huge population of China, with the loose definition as in my another post.

 

Everyone loves money and makes money.  But no one targets to be the richest man on earth.   Having more is good enough.  Immortality is the same.   As one of us said, is it really fine to live in a body for hundreds of years?   But having longer life with vitality is certain welcome.

[snowymountains]

31 minutes ago, Master Logray said:

 

 

Ghost immortals :  technically an intelligent ghost

Heaven immortals : human transformed into another specie.

These 2 are actually no more human.   Counting lifespan is not sensible.   I do believe they have their own lifespan.

 

 

This an afterlife belief, all societies had & have beliefs on this topic, of course nobody knows but this is neither provable nor falsifiable.

 

31 minutes ago, Master Logray said:

 

 

 

 

Men immortals:  mere human with long age, 100+  (old days lifespan was 40).  This looks like not very impossible nowadays.

Earth immortals: a few hundred years of age, with some 

 

 

 

 

 

My grandparents lived that long but they weren't Taoist nor did they call themselves immortals. They did lead a very healthy lifestyle, close to nature.

In ancient times people did reach that age sometimes.

This is stretching the definition of immortal by quite a bit.

 

31 minutes ago, Master Logray said:

 

Earth immortals: a few hundred years of age, with some abilities.  But they still die.   Science will bring us there one day, probably not too long.

 

We're not there yet in terms of science though and science definitely wasn't there thousands of years ago, so whoever wrote this thousands of years ago may believed it but they didn't know.

It's interesting to know what people believed in, taking it as a fact when we know it to be false though is different.

 

 

31 minutes ago, Master Logray said:

Immortals (generally believed) :  This is the genuine one.  They can surpass the limit of a body, appear at will anywhere.  It is said they can live forever but I think there is still a certain limit.

 

Surpass the limit of a body , how ? By attempting to plant their soul into other bodies like the ancient Shamans allegedly wanted to ?

This is not possible, projections of emotions is a recognised phenomenon, though its mechanics are not fully explained yet, and I'll take the liberty, for the sake of the argument, to extend it to projection of individual thoughts ( even though this is not considered a fact, for the sake of the argument ).

 

There's simply not enough bandwidth to transfer a whole pack of conscious+subconscious+unconscious, it would take centuries even assuming such a projection is even in principle possible.

 

Though I do pity their students if that's what they were trying to do to them because this is quite literally abusive behaviour.

Edited February 3 by snowymountains

[Maddie]

Obviously people can and will believe whatever they want to believe but to convince the world an extraordinary claim is true requires extraordinary evidence and this is a reasonable point of view.

 

*It's probably not a coincidence that we don't see any chi Masters dominating the UFC.

Edited February 3 by Maddie