John 3:3

[Apotheose]

15 hours ago, Daniel said:

Those who are born of only Spirit are limited in their awareness.  They can hear "wind" but cannot chart its course.  Wind is in quotes because there is a double meaning here. 

That’s a great insight.

 

I view it differently. Personally, i see two possible meanings of it. One of them being akin to Blue Eyed Snake’s view of it.

 

In much of the Bible, especially in the Gospel of John, I see verses which can be viewed both from a purely-religious and a mystical point of view.

 

In order to be didactic, let’s put (i) the purely-religious view as something which corroborates the idea of a more ‘Separated’ relationship between the Creator and the Creature; and (ii) the mystical as a point of view which corroborates the more ‘United’ view of it (macro/microcosmus) (“as above, so below”).

 

Dissecting John 3:8 would lead, in my perspective, to both views. So:

 

John 3:8 - “The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”

 

First I’ll explain the purely-religious possible meaning: 

 

a- [The wind blows wherever it pleases] - meaning that wind is free. It can go all directions.

 

b- [You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going] - meaning you can hear the wind, but cannot know its path.

 

c- [So it is with everyone born of the Spirit] - meaning that, the same way we cannot understand the wind - but only hear it -, we cannot either understand the Rebirth. It’s miraculous and fabricated by the Spirit, not something plausible for human understanding. Our senses are limited to perceiving the wind the same way they are limited to perceiving the Spirit.

 

Now the mystical possible meaning:

(since ‘wind’ and ‘Spirit’ mean the same in hebrew, I prefer to only use the term ‘Spirit’ for better understanding)

 

So, “The Spirit blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”

 

a- [The Spirit blows wherever it pleases] - meaning that It is ultimately free. The Spirit has Free Will.

 

b- [You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going] - meaning you can “hear” his Works, but not understand how He does it. You can see the results, not the causes. He cannot be understood by man.

 

c- [So it is with everyone born of Spirit] - well, now I see a different meaning… Let’s consider the Son not only as Jesus, but every Redeemed man, for better understanding.

So, it can possibly mean that the Redeemed/Reborn is as unintelligible as the Spirit in the perspective of ignorant men. He - the Son/the Redeemed -, as well as the Spirit, has (a) Free Will and (b) cannot be rationally understood by common man, meaning that men can see his works in the world but cannot know how he does it. Since he’s been reborn, he “lives in Christ”. He has ways of perceiving reality and acting in the world that the “blind” cannot comprehend.

Edited February 6 by Apotheose

[Sir Darius the Clairvoyent]

43 minutes ago, SirPalomides said:

 

My first thought is, I would definitely expect to find lines like this in a book of Norse poetry that had been edited by Christian clergy. I'm not saying it's definitely an interpolation, I'm just raising an eyebrow here. Christian apologists tend to take two different approaches to "pagan" lore- one is the obvious solution of demonizing it; the other is to read foreshadowings of the Gospel into it, just as they do with the Old Testament. For all I know, it could also be perfectly authentic. 

My take is that it probally is. Allthough written in 1300s, it is belived to be significantly older. And also the tone doesnt strike me as very «Christian.» Runes means «magic» more than an acctual alphabet at that time. Also, when he came back, he used his ability in a very pagan manar, so to speak. And lastly, it is written in rhyme and makes use of kennings (poetic tool, like calling a boat for a sea horse forexample), witch makes them less prone to change.

 

Not denying there could be Christian (and other) influences, that seems very plausible. Christ got accepted long before christianity (the only Christ and no one else) was the hard part. 
 

But all in all I think that is secondary, cultures impact each other, both for better and for worse.

 

edit: furthermore, this kind of sacrifice for wisdom is very much true to the character of Odin

 

edit 2: the only sinimiarity is.. well, not much. Odin sacrificing himself, and Jesus getting «sacrificed,» so to speak.

Edited February 6 by NaturaNaturans

[Cobie]

16 hours ago, Daniel said:

… 7 … ‘You [Nicodemus] …

This second “you” refers to all people https://biblehub.com/text/john/3-7.htm  

 

 

Edited February 6 by Cobie

[Cobie]

 

On 05/02/2024 at 1:17 AM, Daniel said:

… must be lifted …

To ‘be lifted’ was a euphemism for being crucified. 
 

 

Edited February 6 by Cobie

[Sir Darius the Clairvoyent]

«(since ‘wind’ and ‘Spirit’ mean the same in hebrew, I prefer to only use the term ‘Spirit’ for better understanding).» 

 

@Apoostrophe last post ^

 

Kind of cool. Greek and norse word for spirit is the same as the one for breath aswell, pneuma and ånd. Pneuma is apperantly the word used to translate ruach in the bible, witch has a lot different meanings, 7 according to wiki.

 

funfact is that human and adam(a) means the exact same thing as well: earthly being. Apologies for the tangent.

[Cobie]

18 hours ago, Daniel said:

… in both Greek and hebrew, the words for wind and spirit are connected …

The Greek word (πνεῦμα - pneuma) means “wind’, ‘Holy Spirit’ and also ‘fire’ (Pentecost flames represent the Holy Spirit).  
 

 

Edited February 6 by Cobie

[Cobie]

John 3:5, water & wind (pneuma) cf Feng shui 風水, wind & water. 

風 feng1 - wind

水 shui3 - water

 

 

Edited February 6 by Cobie

[Daniel]

14 hours ago, blue eyed snake said:

 

thank you, this is fascinating,

 

 

 

 

you are very welcome. I appreciate the opportunity to explore it together.

[Daniel]

@Apotheose,

 

Thank you for the reply.  I'm going to reflect on what you wrote.

[S:C]

Great work at explaining this, thank you @Daniel! 

[Daniel]

On 6/9/2024 at 9:57 AM, S:C said:

Great work at explaining this, thank you @Daniel! 

 

Many thanks.