Help on the spiritual path

[Maddie]

7 minutes ago, blue eyed snake said:

 

buddhism gives me the pip as it wants me to learn a totally new language full of unknown concepts.

 

 

Fair enough. I'll try to put it into more conventional terms then. Shankara's mean "conditioned objects". They are said to be made with in the Shankara Skanda or the 4th aggregate which is just a term for volitional formations. It is also where karma is made. 

 

So to make this make more sense. You preform a volitional action, i.e. make a choice. That choice or volitional action then makes an imprint within the mind as a Shankara. This is conditioning. This explains habit and why when one does something they tend to do it more. 

 

The Buddha described all of the Skanda's as things that we assume to be the self but are not the self. It is easy to see how we identify with our volitional actions, or choices as "I" or "me". "I did that" "that was my choice". But in reality it was a part of our conditioning and therefore is not an unchangeable identity. 

Edited February 8 by Maddie

[blue eyed snake]

3 minutes ago, Maddie said:

 

Like I just stated this is due to increased awareness of one's own Shankara's. 

 

could you please translate that to simple 4 letter english words?

prettyplease?

 

conditioned

volitional

objects

 

to me it's just shit popping out when you try to enter into the resting state.

 

that does not sound fancy 

[Maddie]

3 minutes ago, blue eyed snake said:

 

could you please translate that to simple 4 letter english words?

prettyplease?

 

conditioned

volitional

objects

 

to me it's just shit popping out when you try to enter into the resting state.

 

that does not sound fancy 

 

Please let me know if my second attempt to explain it made more sense. 

[Cobie]

On 07/02/2024 at 12:01 PM, snowymountains said:

… meditation … it's not recommended in some of the people that develop PTSD …

 

“Though not a lot of research has been done, a limited number of studies have shown that meditation improved symptoms of PTSD and depression. ‘As a clinician, I see meditation as a very powerful complement to therapy,’ Jain says. “There certainly do not appear to be any adverse effects or down sides to meditation for PTSD. “ 

https://www.webmd.com/mental-health/features/meditation-ptsd   
 

 

Edited February 8 by Cobie

[S:C]

6 minutes ago, Maddie said:

to see how we identify with our volitional actions, or choices as "I" or "me". "I did that" "that was my choice". But in reality it was a part of our conditioning and therefore is not an unchangeable identity. 

So as always: give in, take notice, and let go?

 

Sounds like fun. (Not.) 

Quote

7 minutes ago, blue eyed snake said:

me it's just shit popping out when you try to enter into the resting state.

Funny, to me it’s more like brain vomit (if there’s such a thing).  

[Maddie]

1 minute ago, Cobie said:

 

“Though not a lot of research has been done, a limited number of studies have shown that meditation improved symptoms of PTSD and depression. ‘As a clinician, I see meditation as a very powerful complement to therapy,’ Jain says. “There certainly do not appear to be any adverse effects or down sides to meditation for PTSD. “ 

https://www.webmd.com/mental-health/features/meditation-ptsd   

 

The paradox of relaxation training: Relaxation induced anxiety and mediation effects of negative contrast sensitivity in generalized anxiety disorder and major depressive disorder

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7288612/#:~:text=Relaxation induced anxiety (RIA) is,their anxiety during relaxation training.

 

 

The more you know :-)

[Maddie]

Just now, S:C said:

So as always: give in, take notice, and let go?

 

Sounds like fun. (Not.) 

Funny, to me it’s more like brain vomit (if there’s such a thing).  

 

Yes mindfulness. Not fun now, but happier later in the long run. 

[S:C]

Just now, Maddie said:

 

Yes mindfulness. Not fun now, but happier later in the long run. 

Not a fun thing to be a slave on the path… well, let’s hope the path poofs you right.

[blue eyed snake]

5 minutes ago, Maddie said:

 

Fair enough. I'll try to put it into more conventional terms then. Shankara's mean "conditioned objects". They are said to be made with in the Shankara Skanda or the 4th aggregate which is just a term for volitional formations. It is also where karma is made. 

 

So to make this make more sense. You preform a volitional action, i.e. make a choice. That choice or volitional action then makes an imprint within the mind as a Shankara. This is conditioning. This explains habit and why when one does something they tend to do it more. 

 

The Buddha described all of the Skanda's as things that we assume to be the self but are not the self. It is easy to see how we identify with our volitional actions, or choices as "I" or "me". "I did that" "that was my choice". But in reality it was a part of our conditioning and therefore is not an unchangeable identity. 

 

you mean humans tend to behave according to preformed behavioral ruts, all the while thinking their behavior is "free will"

every time your behavior conforms to the rut you shape the rut a bit deeper..

 

in the end the Me we perceive as I /"this is me" is nothing more then a bunch of behaviors shaped by (perceived) hurts in our childhood.

 

( need to work on that, too much words have a lettercount > 4)

 

when you start screaming/weeping etc during meditation or other practices those ingrained paths surface

something like that.

 

[blue eyed snake]

5 minutes ago, S:C said:

brain vomit 

 

excellent term

[Maddie]

1 minute ago, blue eyed snake said:

 

you mean humans tend to behave according to preformed behavioral ruts, all the while thinking their behavior is "free will"

every time your behavior conforms to the rut you shape the rut a bit deeper..

 

in the end the Me we perceive as I /"this is me" is nothing more then a bunch of behaviors shaped by (perceived) hurts in our childhood.

 

( need to work on that, too much words have a lettercount > 4)

 

when you start screaming/weeping etc during meditation or other practices those ingrained paths surface

something like that.

 

 

Yes that!

 

The only thing I would add is that it's not only things during childhood that shape us, but all of our decisions. 

The childhood ones are trickier though because as children we had less awareness, and its the ones that we are less aware of that get us the most. This is why the point of meditation is do see through that thing that rhymes with "melusion" 

[blue eyed snake]

3 minutes ago, S:C said:

Not a fun thing to be a slave on the path… well, let’s hope the path poofs you right.

 

ehm, change awakening for meditation/the path

 

 

 

[snowymountains]

17 minutes ago, Cobie said:

 

“Though not a lot of research has been done, a limited number of studies have shown that meditation improved symptoms of PTSD and depression. ‘As a clinician, I see meditation as a very powerful complement to therapy,’ Jain says. “There certainly do not appear to be any adverse effects or down sides to meditation for PTSD. “ 

https://www.webmd.com/mental-health/features/meditation-ptsd   
 

 

 

Sure, but this article on WebMD, which is not a reference source, is not in line with what's practiced.

[Unota]

7 minutes ago, Maddie said:

 

Yes that!

 

The only thing I would add is that it's not only things during childhood that shape us, but all of our decisions. 

The childhood ones are trickier though because as children we had less awareness, and its the ones that we are less aware of that get us the most. This is why the point of meditation is do see through that thing that rhymes with "melusion" 

My case was much more recent than childhood. I guess in a way it was tied to a rut I tend to get into, to want to be able to control or do something about things. I've seen a lot of suffering people lately. I did what I could, but, I couldn't help but still feel somehow responsible, for not being able to do more. I think I was trying to keep that grief with me, like it was my responsibility, as if that helped somehow, when it didn't. I can't be doing that, hahaha. Not good.

[snowymountains]

43 minutes ago, S:C said:

Can you explain, please?

 

How can dopamine rise during focused awareness? And why should that (dopamine?) include the probable possibility of death?

 

Apart from that: if emotions should occur that have no base in current reality and should therefore not be disturbing - can not be justified - momentarily- what on earth is this focused awareness about? 🫣

 

Why should I want to meet and get to know my mind if it is half (?) full (or empty) of emotions - that have no base in current reality? (Does that make any sense?)

 

I‘m done with concepts. 🥱💤

 

Dopamine levels raise overall for meditators, so they raise for folks who have a regular meditation practice.

 

Risk of death is not for focused awareness, I tied it to regressions in specific and it's a sh.. hit the fan type of scenario, rare but not impossible, which is why imo regressions belong exclusively in a therapy setting.

 

Re repressed emotions, a lot of people are disconnected from their emotions, they suppress them, and begin connecting when they begin to meditate regularly.

This includes the so-called negative emotions, which are bound to come to the surface, this is a good thing actually but not sufficient in isolation.

[Maddie]

1 minute ago, Unota said:

My case was much more recent than childhood. I guess in a way it was tied to a rut I tend to get into, to want to be able to control or do something about things. I've seen a lot of suffering people lately. I did what I could, but, I couldn't help but still feel somehow responsible, for not being able to do more. I think I was trying to keep that grief with me, like it was my responsibility, as if that helped somehow, when it didn't. I can't be doing that, hahaha. Not good.

 

You realize you want to control, that is great, now be mindful of the control. Observe it with out getting involved in it or judging it. Observe the control without controlling the control. 

[snowymountains]

1 hour ago, Apech said:

what shall we call this thread?

How about stm like "negative emotions and meditation"?

[snowymountains]

59 minutes ago, Unota said:

Probably something about how...processing things comes first?

 

The difficulty is that people typically leave a lot stuff unprocessed, for various reasons, so it becomes quite a lot to digest when they surface 

[snowymountains]

6 minutes ago, Unota said:

My case was much more recent than childhood. I guess in a way it was tied to a rut I tend to get into, to want to be able to control or do something about things. I've seen a lot of suffering people lately. I did what I could, but, I couldn't help but still feel somehow responsible, for not being able to do more. I think I was trying to keep that grief with me, like it was my responsibility, as if that helped somehow, when it didn't. I can't be doing that, hahaha. Not good.

 

Express the grief, don't keep it in you, avoid suppressing emotions, they're a good thing.

 

The "value" of emotions is that they show us what to prioritise.

 

[snowymountains]

34 minutes ago, blue eyed snake said:

 

you mean humans tend to behave according to preformed behavioral ruts, all the while thinking their behavior is "free will"

every time your behavior conforms to the rut you shape the rut a bit deeper..

 

in the end the Me we perceive as I /"this is me" is nothing more then a bunch of behaviors shaped by (perceived) hurts in our childhood.

 

( need to work on that, too much words have a lettercount > 4)

 

when you start screaming/weeping etc during meditation or other practices those ingrained paths surface

something like that.

 

 

Kind of like that but not confined to childhood trauma, ie all sorts of automatic reactions are included.

 

Initially in Insight meditation folks identify something, be it a thought, an emotion , a sound etc. later they also observe the rise and fall of thoughts/emotions/pains etc.

Later they start looking at linkages, dependent coarising, like I heard a sound, the sound caused anger and a thought came up.

It's surprising how much is "preprogrammed", so in that sense it's not conscious choices that we make, a lot is simply "preprogrammed".

 

The theory behind it is often called today "Buddhist psychology" and it's described in abhidhamma ( which some scholars don't attribute to the historical Buddha btw ). This in Theravada, in Mahayana they rely mostly on Yogachara.

These are quite heavy reads tbh, they take years to study and digest, I certainly haven't digested them.

 

The experiental part of all that, which is what's more important for a practitioner, is insight meditation.

[blue eyed snake]

47 minutes ago, Maddie said:

 

Yes that!

 

The only thing I would add is that it's not only things during childhood that shape us, but all of our decisions. 

The childhood ones are trickier though because as children we had less awareness, and its the ones that we are less aware of that get us the most. This is why the point of meditation is do see through that thing that rhymes with "melusion" 

 

i  guess it's a layered thing and in the end you'll find that it comes from childhood things 

[snowymountains]

1 minute ago, blue eyed snake said:

 

i  guess it's a layered thing and in the end you'll find that it comes from childhood things 

A lot yes, but not all of it

[Maddie]

1 minute ago, blue eyed snake said:

 

i  guess it's a layered thing and in the end you'll find that it comes from childhood things 

 

Some of it comes from childhood, some of it comes from adulthood. All of it comes from our reactions and responses i.e. past conditioning which in turn create further conditioning. 

[Nungali]

2 hours ago, Apech said:

i have a problem with ‘unwanted’ as a descriptor

 

If they are unwanted , one releases them .  from the depths , then they 'rise up' to the conscious mind .

 

if they are unwanted, one releases them and watches them continue to 'rise' , up and to whatever source one gives one's life experience to *  . If they are wanted , we hold on to them  and dont offer them up ,  we hold them within our consciousness and have them effect and interact with  that .  - but when things dont 'flow' they become 'stagnant '  .

 

* To experience the fullness of   ' life's  experiences'  both  'good ' or 'bad'  are required by 'spirit'.

[liminal_luke]

I think nearly everyone has unconscious emotional stuff that is "unwanted" (to put it mildly), stuff that could potentially surface during meditation.  In a way, this surfacing process is the point; it's how meditation works.  Once the gunk is cleared out we're likely to feel better, but, but, but...while the gunk is being cleared out we're likely to feel worse.  Some people need to go slower than others.  Some people need to go not at all.  And for some, it's full speed ahead.  It's a very individual thing and I think the key is to honor where we are. 

Edited February 8 by liminal_luke