I started meditating to relax and I ended up sobbing with rage - am I stange?

[silent thunder]

6 hours ago, Nungali said:

 

 

 

 

 

[Apech]

Firstly thank you all for the helpful and warm replies.  It's very nice to see and feel how supportive this place can be at times - perhaps we are really building a community here which is what I always hoped for (especially when I was moderating).

 

Second, slight apologies for the melodramatic nature of the the topic title.  I did write it from the heart - I have had many varying and strong emotional reactions like this over the years and at certain times they were quite common.  I remember one time I received a vajrayana initiation (Amitabha) and when I got home I just sat and wept for hours.  On that occasion it wasn't so much rage as regret - that somehow I had to tell my self how hard I had been trying - but failing again and again.

 

My rage when it surfaces is mainly about what others have done to me.  I am by nature quite ingenuous and have to learn slowly over years that the intent of others is often disingenuous - so I have in my younger years blundered into situations where others took advantage.  What happens I think, is that when this kind of thing is not assimilated or understood it sort of 'pickles' inside where deep down you have the awareness to see but somehow cannot express it to your self.  Then when it breaks out it can be hot and angry or bitter and resentful ... etc. etc.

 

@Bindi has often spoken of something called 'spiritual bypassing' where all this inner content is kind of ignored or buried by supposed 'higher thoughts' and wot not (I think I've got that right) - this is a great danger to the likes of us, especially if we form the idea that we are somehow advanced enough to be beyond ordinary human concerns and so on.

 

The other problem is that meditation is currently 'sold' (literally or figuratively) as a way to relaxation and calm.  Actually, in my experience meditation (or any spiritual process) is the opposite - it is a great work full of challenge and needing great effort - and particularly the courage to face into those things you would most like to avoid.  But again this does not mean indulgence in one's emotions in a way which just feeds self importance - i.e. 'how I feel is the most important thing in the world'.

 

@Taoist Texts stagnation of qi in the liver is interesting - but is this not just a technical description of the bodily store of certain emotion?  If the qi moves and causes a feeling like rage - how is that different to rage?  Isn't the subtle body qi movement simply the correlate to the human emotions anyway???

 

Last point perhaps is that I take the view that emotional responses are a positive sign.  They are there all the time un-noticed and bringing them into awareness is what is needed even if it is painful.

 

 

Edited February 9 by Apech

[Taoist Texts]

58 minutes ago, Apech said:

Taoist Texts stagnation of qi in the liver is interesting - but is this not just a technical description of the bodily store of certain emotion?

lets say i live in barbie land where nothing bad ever happened to me, hence no bad emotions, yet i have an inborn stagnating liver - then i will still have outbursts when the liver overflows even though there was no original trauma

1 hour ago, Apech said:

If the qi moves and causes a feeling like rage - how is that different to rage? 

a real rage is caused by a direct external cause. an outburst of qi has none except an innate liver defect. E.g Tourrets syndrome

1 hour ago, Apech said:

Isn't the subtle body qi movement simply the correlate to the human emotions anyway???

not quite. the physiological qi is insulated from the psychological qi, otherwise the body would not be able to function being disrupted by emotions all the time

6 hours ago, Bindi said:

his Chinese wife got angry she used to clutch her liver which was a sort of proof to him of the correlation. Where does your idea that it’s non-emotional stagnant qi come from? 

she clutched her liver, others clutch pearls, yet others get red in the face, some suffer a stroke etc. The somatic response varies. Think this way: two apparently similar persons are exposed to a similar emotional stimuli. Why are their reactions different?

2 hours ago, Master Logray said:

aoist Texts does have a point.   The liver is closely associated  with emotions.  But the normal discourse is emotions affecting the liver first and sluggish liver Chi affects emotion later.

correct, thats the common explanation, sufficient for the general audience, which  never asks why the liver? why not the lungs or the heart?

[Apotheose]

On 09/02/2024 at 9:49 AM, Apech said:

Firstly thank you all for the helpful and warm replies.  It's very nice to see and feel how supportive this place can be at times - perhaps we are really building a community here which is what I always hoped for (especially when I was moderating).

 

Second, slight apologies for the melodramatic nature of the the topic title.  I did write it from the heart - I have had many varying and strong emotional reactions like this over the years and at certain times they were quite common.  I remember one time I received a vajrayana initiation (Amitabha) and when I got home I just sat and wept for hours.  On that occasion it wasn't so much rage as regret - that somehow I had to tell my self how hard I had been trying - but failing again and again.

 

My rage when it surfaces is mainly about what others have done to me.  I am by nature quite ingenuous and have to learn slowly over years that the intent of others is often disingenuous - so I have in my younger years blundered into situations where others took advantage.  What happens I think, is that when this kind of thing is not assimilated or understood it sort of 'pickles' inside where deep down you have the awareness to see but somehow cannot express it to your self.  Then when it breaks out it can be hot and angry or bitter and resentful ... etc. etc.

 

@Bindi has often spoken of something called 'spiritual bypassing' where all this inner content is kind of ignored or buried by supposed 'higher thoughts' and wot not (I think I've got that right) - this is a great danger to the likes of us, especially if we form the idea that we are somehow advanced enough to be beyond ordinary human concerns and so on.

 

The other problem is that meditation is currently 'sold' (literally or figuratively) as a way to relaxation and calm.  Actually, in my experience meditation (or any spiritual process) is the opposite - it is a great work full of challenge and needing great effort - and particularly the courage to face into those things you would most like to avoid.  But again this does not mean indulgence in one's emotions in a way which just feeds self importance - i.e. 'how I feel is the most important thing in the world'.

 

@Taoist Texts stagnation of qi in the liver is interesting - but is this not just a technical description of the bodily store of certain emotion?  If the qi moves and causes a feeling like rage - how is that different to rage?  Isn't the subtle body qi movement simply the correlate to the human emotions anyway???

 

Last point perhaps is that I take the view that emotional responses are a positive sign.  They are there all the time un-noticed and bringing them into awareness is what is needed even if it is painful.

 

 

 

,

Edited April 8 by Apotheose

[Unota]

3 hours ago, snowymountains said:

 

This still doesn't suggest what needs to be done with the anger in general, it's only an instruction what to do with it in terms of meditation - I won't go into the discussion of which is ie my approach or someone else's with respect to that subtopic, but the topic is much wider than that.

I think that it depends on where the 'strong emotion' is coming from. I think that only you would know 'what to be done' from there. Why exactly are you angry? Is it anger at the world? Is it jealousy? Is it grief? Is it stress? Do you feel wronged? Why do you feel wronged? Ask yourself why, why, why. And when you finally understand, it is also one thing to understand, and one thing to directly apply it, to resolve this anger. To remind yourself that this thing you are clinging to, that you should stop clinging to it, and let it go. It was okay to be angry, but to keep that anger, it is causing you suffering. I think...It is probably a gradual thing. It takes time. I think it's okay to talk about that here too.

Edited February 9 by Unota

[snowymountains]

9 minutes ago, Unota said:

I think that it depends on where the 'strong emotion' is coming from. I think that only you would know 'what to be done' from there. Why exactly are you angry? Is it anger at the world? Is it jealousy? Is it grief? Is it stress? Do you feel wronged? Why do you feel wronged? Ask yourself why, why, why. And when you finally understand, it is also one thing to understand, and one thing to directly apply it, to resolve this anger. To remind yourself that this thing you are clinging to, that you should stop clinging to it, and let it go. It was okay to be angry, but to keep that anger, it is causing you suffering. I think...It is probably a gradual thing. It takes time. I think it's okay to talk about that here too.

 

What's to be done does depend on the origin, but it's also mostly unrelated to meditation.

While there is a toolset in insight meditation, it's fairly incomplete.

Clinging is also not always the source for an emotion resurfacing.

It's also rare for an individual to know what to do after uncovering something like this, sometimes only therapy can help.

It's just a deep and complex topic 🙂

 

[Taomeow]

9 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

since the commenters miss the point by a mile, i will explain. yours is a typical case of liver stagnation whereas an inborn energetic defect in the liver causes the qi to accumulate in the liver. When the liver is filled to capacity, the stagnant qi bursts forth in the moment of calm, causing an emotional-looking reaction which is not a real emotion. Instead it is a physiological reaction caused by the stagnated liver qi bursting to the surface. It is a symptom of a liver energy issue. It has nothing to do with meditation, repressed emotions, rage, past-life traumas etc yada yada

Can be rectified by a number of modalities of which tcm drugs / acupuncture are the least effective

 

In my experience with some of the top traditional medicine practitioners in China, as well as my own humble but persistent studies on the subject, no method exists whereby a diagnosis of liver stagnation or anything else is based on one symptom -- an outburst of such and such emotions under such and such circumstances.  One would have to have full context -- emotional manifestations may be a pointer, but one would carefully read the pulses, examine the tongue, the overall physique, posture, gait, sound of voice, even smell -- before arriving at conclusions.

It's true that classical Chinese medicine has a strong tendency to somatize rather than psychologize (due to the whole set-up of the traditional society disallowing discussions of, e.g., psychological trauma inflicted by parents upon children or, by extension, any and all social superiors upon all inferiors), but even in this context things are not taken so far as to dispense diagnoses without a much more comprehensive examination.      

Edited February 9 by Taomeow

[snowymountains]

13 minutes ago, Taomeow said:

all social superiors upon all inferiors     

How Adlerian 😁

[blue eyed snake]

1 hour ago, Taoist Texts said:

lets say i live in barbie land where nothing bad ever happened to me, hence no bad emotions, yet i have an inborn stagnating liver - then i will still have outbursts when the liver overflows even though there was no original trauma

 

thank you for posting this.

 

many people seem to be unaware of that

[Taomeow]

2 minutes ago, snowymountains said:

How Adlerian 😁

 

I had to look it up.  

[Sahaja]

Often trauma that has an emotional component is stored as xie qi in the body and it gets released in the practice. If you are lucky a brief reoccurrence of the emotion is triggered and then passes quickly particularly if you listen (ting)  to it and then release (song)  it.  If you find yourself attaching to this emotion better to get up and do something else to distract the mind away from the attachment returning to the practice when the emotion has passed. While “spiritual bypassing” can be a thing, my experience is that it’s much more common for the acquired limited I self to grab a hold of the emotional  experience and keep reliving it as a way to reinforce itself. To achieve stillness one needs to move beyond this identification, not easy as the I has many ways to pull you back.  
 

There is something called turning around the light in neidan that deals with this topic and involves the 5 phases/elements unifying their lights into one light. This does involve balancing the  emotions associated with the elements including anger/wood/liver etc.  

 

in general practices add energy to whatever is preexisting in the body and mind.  People being treated medically  for clinical psychological issues should be very careful in doing any practices for this reason.  

 

 

[snowymountains]

Just now, Taomeow said:

 

I had to look it up.  

 

Still a valid point !

[Taoist Texts]

22 minutes ago, Taomeow said:

even smell

 

[Apech]

30 minutes ago, blue eyed snake said:

 

thank you for posting this.

 

many people seem to be unaware of that

Also proves that @Taoist Texts has watched the Barbie movie!!!!

[Taoist Texts]

11 minutes ago, Apech said:

Also proves that @Taoist Texts has watched the Barbie movie!!!!

[Bhathen]

10 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

since the commenters miss the point by a mile, i will explain. yours is a typical case of liver stagnation whereas an inborn energetic defect in the liver causes the qi to accumulate in the liver. When the liver is filled to capacity, the stagnant qi bursts forth in the moment of calm, causing an emotional-looking reaction which is not a real emotion. Instead it is a physiological reaction caused by the stagnated liver qi bursting to the surface. It is a symptom of a liver energy issue. It has nothing to do with meditation, repressed emotions, rage, past-life traumas etc yada yada

Can be rectified by a number of modalities of which tcm drugs / acupuncture are the least effective

 

Why does it feel like emotions are just transformed from one to another.? When the breathing is hard or forceful and from the lower part of the body, the emotion seems to be more of anger. When the breathing is more softer and calmer it seems to transform to sadness or sobbing.

How best to deal with stagnant qi, if TCM and acupuncture are least effective? Qigong seems to cycle the excessive energy to bring about a balance, but I maybe wrong about it in the long run.

 

About observing the emotions, during meditation or moments of silence it is easier for thought and emotions to arise and pass, thus being a neutral observer. But during day to day activities, observing them just makes the thought disappear and the only thing remaining is watching the breathing pattern and the happenings between inhalation and exhalation. Maybe there are better ways to observe.

Edited February 9 by Bhathen
added my thoughts on observing emotions

[Taomeow]

38 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

 

 

I once wrote a sci-fi short story titled "The scent of a cat," and the opening was dedicated to the description of what a healthy, healthy-eating cat really smells like.  The plot was inspired by a beautiful Japanese temple known as Nemuri Neko (The Sleeping Cat) and my cat of 19 years, Lola, who smelled very faintly (you had to bury your nose in her fur to discern it) of something cozy which I guess can be best described by the now-popular Scandinavian word hygge.   

 

Many diseases do have their characteristic smells, in the olden days they were described in Western medical books too and physicians were trained to discern them.  Diabetes smells like slightly gone fruit, schizophrenia can give you a whiff of water in a vase with flowers which should have been changed days ago but wasn't, and stagnant liver -- that's either intense smell of sweat not really helped by daily showers or sometimes the absence of any body odor.  (And then there's pheromones which don't smell like anything but one reacts to them as though they do...  has it ever happened to you that when you're in love with someone, everybody seems suddenly interested in you above average?  )  

[Taoist Texts]

57 minutes ago, Bhathen said:

Why does it feel like emotions are just transformed from one to another.?

because its one shingle body of bodily qi behind them. its like a sea tide, when the tide rises it is anger; when the tide ebbs it is sadness. but it is the same seawater, the same qi

1 hour ago, Bhathen said:

How best to deal with stagnant qi, if TCM and acupuncture are least effective?

lots of ways: exercise, diet, fasting, massage

1 hour ago, Bhathen said:

Qigong seems to cycle the excessive energy to bring about a balance, but I maybe wrong about it in the long run.

you know ppl talk about doing qigong all the time but when asked whats the point of doing it -  all you get is a blank stare. and some anger hehe;)

[liminal_luke]

4 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

lets say i live in barbie land where nothing bad ever happened to me, hence no bad emotions, yet i have an inborn stagnating liver - then i will still have outbursts when the liver overflows even though there was no original trauma

 

 

In my view, emotions need not be tied to external objective circumstance: trauma is not a requirement.  People are sad or afraid or mad all the time for (non)reasons all the time, purported explanations that leave family and friends scratching their heads.  Sometimes such people are called -- to use a term mired in controvery of late -- delusional. I prefer to say that they are emotional for reasons I don't understand. And, speaking of delusion, I think we're all of a piece and the distinction between physical and emotional is not always helpful.  Sometimes emotional things are expressed physically and physical things emotionally.  As an asian bodywork teacher of mine, Gilles Marin, once put it: we don't have a liver, we are our liver.

Edited February 9 by liminal_luke

[Cobie]

20 hours ago, Apech said:

Discuss … [am I stange?]

am I stange? Well … you do lack an ‘r’. 
 

 

Edited February 9 by Cobie

[Taomeow]

1 hour ago, Cobie said:

am I stange? Well … you do lack an ‘r’. 
 

 

 

Maybe he did mean "Stange" -- in German one of the meanings is "a tall glass."  Perhaps he was just a bit shy to ask in English and resorted to German to inquire if people thought of him as "a tall glass of water" -- which is an idiomatic description of an attractive person of notable stature.  

[Nungali]

14 hours ago, Apotheose said:

 

Genius 

 

I like him already 

 

He was great !  Another woman asked him if lamas are allowed to marry . he said ;

 

" I am a Monk !  We have a vow of celibacy , no I am not allowed to get married .  Besides .... I am 78 years old !  "

 

The woman gives an embarrassed  " Oh ..... yes. "

 

Lama :  ' But I do have a girl friend . " 

[Nungali]

13 hours ago, Bindi said:

 A friend who was a TCM practitioner and had been taught that anger correlated with liver once told me that when his Chinese wife got angry she used to clutch her liver which was a sort of proof to him of the correlation. Where does your idea that it’s non-emotional stagnant qi come from? 

 

Well  for 'inscrutable Chinese with no emotions, outbursts  crying or anger '  ... it must be 'stagnant Qi '  !

 

Even if they do suffer those things  .... what we are talking about here  -   'stagnant Qi '

 

Why ?

 

Because Taoist texts told us so .

[liminal_luke]

12 minutes ago, Taomeow said:

 Perhaps he was just a bit shy to ask in English and resorted to German to inquire if people thought of him as "a tall glass of water" -- which is an idiomatic description of an attractive person of notable stature.  

 

I generally avoid commenting on people's physical appearance, but I'll make an exception in this case and come right out with it: I've always thought of Apech as a tall glass of water.

Edited February 9 by liminal_luke

[Nungali]

9 hours ago, snowymountains said:

 

This still doesn't suggest what needs to be done with the anger in general, it's only an instruction what to do with it in terms of meditation - I won't go into the discussion of which is ie my approach or someone else's with respect to that subtopic, but the topic is much wider than that.

 

You !   15 mins on the bag !