Is Buddhism a complete path?

[liminal_luke]

Musical interlude.  This rendition of Amazing Grace may not be Buddhist per se but it feels to me like it could be.  Amazing Grace with Overtone Singing by Nestor Kornblum (youtube.com)

[old3bob]

39 minutes ago, Mark Foote said:

 

 

 

When a presence of mind is retained as the placement of attention shifts, then the natural tendency toward the free placement of attention can draw out thought initial and sustained, and bring on the stages of concentration:

 

… there is no need to depend on teaching. But the most important thing is to practice and realize our true nature… [laughs]. This is, you know, Zen.

 

(Shunryu Suzuki, Tassajara 68-07-24 transcript from shunryusuzuki.com)

 

 

(Shunryu Suzuki on Shikantaza and the Theravadin Stages, emphasis added)

 

 

Not possible to embody the free placement of attention through the exercise of will, or volition.  I would say the embodiment of the free placement of attention is grace in action, and grace apart from action is just a concept.

 

 

 

 

Hmm, where is Suzuki on that picture 

Edited February 14 by old3bob

[Barnaby]

10 minutes ago, old3bob said:

 

umm, I'd say artifice in that instance would be a dead-end-stop, thus instantly seen through...

Probably the wrong word. Let’s say some form of symbolic mediation.

[blue eyed snake]

6 minutes ago, Keith108 said:

like it here...until the conversation turns to Buddhism. I just need to exercise the self control needed to stay out of these threads. 

 

seem to remember that once, long ago the forum was chopped into subforums with one of the reasons that buddhist would have their own table to find out which of the many viewpoints is best, without bothering the other bums.

The was much more traffic in those days and I really hope the bums will gather steam again

 

But restraining yourself from getting into threads like these is a good practice which can teach you about the reasons you are attached to it.

 

as a little help there is an ignore button which can assist your ego when the going gets tough 

[doc benway]

25 minutes ago, Keith108 said:

I like it here...until the conversation turns to Buddhism. I just need to exercise the self control needed to stay out of these threads. 

 

I learn more about myself and the other members than I do about anything else here. That and my friendship with a few really lovely folks are what keep me coming back. There are a few folks here with a lot of knowledge and experience of Buddhism but you do need to be a discriminating consumer.

 

[Elysium]

2 hours ago, Keith108 said:

I did offer a perspective. I was basically called a dogma spewing fundamentalist. Again, no snide-ness. Just confusion. It feels like if the thread were titled "Let's talk about baseball." And then a discussion about cabinet making ensued

I will take your word for it then. No hard feelings I hope 

Edited February 14 by Elysium

[snowymountains]

18 minutes ago, Keith108 said:

 

Guilty as charged. It's a bad habit of mine. I don't feel like putting in the energy to go back and forth while we talk past each other. It's painfully obvious we won't ever be on the same page on this. It's not passive aggressive, though. Just a sense of bewilderment. 

 

This was almost the definition of passive aggressive though.

The energy or whatever reasons which trigger this behaviour for you are for you to work with, nobody else's concern tbh.

 

18 minutes ago, Keith108 said:

I did offer a perspective. I was basically called a dogma spewing fundamentalist. 

 

You make it sound as a victim with the wording you just invented..

This is simply not true, "fundamentalist" and "spewing" are your words, not anyone else's.

 

If you are referring to my response, you could be direct about it but anyhow what I did is point that your arguments are identical to what the Catholics make: spiritual perfection of the leader ( Buddha in this case ), discrepancies from dogma are labelled scholarly and perhaps even no communion ( refuge in the Jewels in the Buddhist dogma ).

 

They're literally near-identical, if you don't like the parallel with the Catholics, you can always use different arguments?

[blue eyed snake]

I totally get what Keith writes, i don't know shit about Buddhism, having other interests. No beans in this particular discussion. But you come over as a know it all and when you have a different perspective you overload people with reasons why you are right.

 

I recognize that particular personality trait and hope I managed to keep it in check now that I am older. It's hard to keep in check.

I clearly remember there was a time where I practiced to say: hm, that's an interesting perspective, I will sleep on it. Or, i think I have hurt you, if so that was not my intention.  Instead of getting reasons why the other must be wrong because I was right.

 

I am always happy when out of an interaction spring new things, that associations come up on both sides , new insights arise or old knowledge gets a new shine and both partners get away from it enriched. For me that is the most beautiful way of talking with each other. That's what I am here for i think, plus the friendship i feel for some bums.

 

Furthermore, I firmly believe there is no "truth" to be found in discussion about the path, all books are in the end, just fingers, pointing to the moon. I look at the moon and am awed, and glad for the fingers that have pointed it out for me. Some here on this forum.

 

 

Look at her, the beautiful ripe roundness, the pearly sheen, the almost magical way her light makes a cave of clouds around her.

beauty, to drown in.

 

 

Now imagine someone coming along telling you she does not shine but reflect light and that cave is a product of reflecting surfaces too.

 

ough

Edited February 15 by blue eyed snake
picture problem mended

[ChiDragon]

On 2/12/2024 at 9:21 AM, Maddie said:

Recent discussions have brought some interesting points for consideration to light. Namely being is Buddhism a complete system for ending suffering permanently aka "enlightenment" all by itself or is it dated and lacking things? 

 

When replying don't just state your opinion, but state the reason that you think so one way or the other.  

Yes, Buddhism is a complete system for ending suffering permanently. A person has to be enlightened, in order, to become a Buddha. 

[snowymountains]

18 minutes ago, blue eyed snake said:

The beautiful ripe roundness, the pearly sheen, the almost magical way her light makes a cave of clouds around her.

beauty, to drown in.

 

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Now imagine someone coming along telling you she does not shine but reflect light and that cave is a product of reflecting surfaces too.

 

ough

 

Sure, others views though can't always be what you want to hear.

 

Nor is your self-reflection applicable to others, it's a projection you do and for you to see why you do it.

 

 

 

[Cobie]

35 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

Yes, Buddhism is a complete system for ending suffering permanently. A person has to be enlightened, in order, to become a Buddha. 

I don’t want to be without suffering permanently, it’s not natural. Suffering, like all our emotions, has a function, e.g. in mourning. 
 

 

Edited February 14 by Cobie

[Cobie]

44 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

… A person has to be enlightened, in order, to become a Buddha. 

Righto. But a person does not have to be a Buddhist, in order to become enlightened.  

 

 

Edited February 14 by Cobie

[snowymountains]

8 minutes ago, Cobie said:

I don’t want to be without suffering permanently, it’s not natural. Suffering, like all our emotions, has a function, e.g. in mourning. 
 

 

 

Agreed, this is very healthy, accept it exists, experience your so-called negative emotions when it happens.

 

No set of Truths and Paths offers an ending to it. Another Jung quote as food for though below,

 

C. Jung “The foundation of all mental illness is the unwillingness to experience legitimate suffering.”

 

Maybe replacing "all" with "a lot" is more accurate.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Cobie]

14 minutes ago, snowymountains said:

.. The foundation of … [a lot of]  mental illness is the unwillingness to experience legitimate suffering …

Agreed.

 

All that equanimity seems repression to me. The Dalai Lama turned out to be a perv. 

“Dalai Lama apologises after kissing boy and asking him to ‘suck my tongue’ “

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/apr/10/dalai-lama-apologises-kissing-boy-suck-his-tongue-video  

 

I was so disappointed. Buddhist enlightenment to me is totally unimportant in comparison to just being a decent person.

 

 

Edited February 15 by Cobie

[ChiDragon]

15 minutes ago, Cobie said:

Righto. But a person does not have to be a Buddhist, in order to become enlightened.  

 

 

 The OP is about a Buddhism complete path. So, it is.

[ChiDragon]

29 minutes ago, Cobie said:

I don’t want to be without suffering permanently, it’s not natural. Suffering, like all our emotions, has a function, e.g. in mourning. 
 

 

Suffering permanently means something is very serious. All the minor stuffs don't count. Understand?

[Cobie]

deleted 

 

Edited February 15 by Cobie

[liminal_luke]

28 minutes ago, Cobie said:

Agreed.

 

All that equanimity seems repression to me. The Dalai Lama turned out to be a perv. 

“Dalai Lama apologises after kissing boy and asking him to ‘suck my tongue’ “

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/apr/10/dalai-lama-apologises-kissing-boy-suck-his-tongue-video  

 

I was so disappointed. Buddhist enlightenment to me is totally unimportant in comparison to just being a decent person.

 

 

 

The Dalai Lama's behavior was certainly odd by conventional standards but he says he was being "innocent and playful" and I'm willing to take him at his word.  

[Cobie]

That I find disgusting 

[liminal_luke]

8 minutes ago, Cobie said:

That I find disgusting 

 

You're not alone in that reaction, I'm sure.  My intuitive sense is that the Dalai Lama was being mischieviously playful rather than sexual, though it's possible that I'm wrong.  In any case, your feeling is very understandable and likely the majority view.

[johndoe2012]

Buddhism for some seems like a cult 'don't criticize the leader, don't think for yourself' 

 

The endless spamming of non Buddhist threads on how wonderful buddhism is is like watching Christians advocate Christianity? 

 

For me there is more to life. Relationships, male identity, passions like interests, hobbies some of which can help overcome suffering not just what Buddhism thinks of suffering. Eg say having no career that fullfills you can generate lots of suffering and steering you towards a more fulfilling life where you use your skills will decrease suffering and increase life satisfaction. 

 

The philosophy tends to attract people who think like kids, that life is just about Buddhism, like kids thinking life is just about playing games. Very shallow? 

 

Too much pop psychology and too little using your own intelligence and internal compass. 

Edited February 15 by johndoe2012

[snowymountains]

6 hours ago, liminal_luke said:

 

The Dalai Lama's behavior was certainly odd by conventional standards but he says he was being "innocent and playful" and I'm willing to take him at his word.  

 

His behaviour was simply appalling, to say the least, judges should be the one to decide if he was "mischievously playful", like for everyone else who doesn't have immunities.

Edited February 15 by snowymountains

[snowymountains]

6 hours ago, Cobie said:

Agreed.

 

All that equanimity seems repression to me. The Dalai Lama turned out to be a perv. 

“Dalai Lama apologises after kissing boy and asking him to ‘suck my tongue’ “

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/apr/10/dalai-lama-apologises-kissing-boy-suck-his-tongue-video  

 

I was so disappointed. Buddhist enlightenment to me is totally unimportant in comparison to just being a decent person.

 

 

 

On Dalai Lama, I don't like special immunities, all people should go through a court trial for something like this.

Judges should be the ones to decide if they were being "mischievously playful" or not.

 

There have also been abuse convictions in Tibetan Buddhism, and some people surprisingly still say about these "let's not think in duality", instead of taking a clear stance.

This also very important for someone to consider.

Tbh Theravada is better in this regard.

 

 

On negative emotions they don't exactly supress, in that they do mindfully observe but their tools don't listen to what their so-called negative emotions say.

 

A negative emotion is also a signal, emotions help us prioritise.

They're not nails to be hit by a hammer.

 

It's not only about calling it "unwholesome" and using the "energy of mindfulness" to acknowledge existence and wait till the "mental formation" from the "mind consciousness" goes back to the "store consciousness", though in isolation ( and other similar ones ) it is a a good technique in what it does.

 

Would the civil rights movement had existed though if anger was always coped in that way?

 

 

Edited February 15 by snowymountains

[snowymountains]

2 hours ago, johndoe2012 said:

Buddhism for some seems like a cult 'don't criticize the leader, don't think for yourself' 

 

The endless spamming of non Buddhist threads on how wonderful buddhism is is like watching Christians advocate Christianity? 

 

For me there is more to life. Relationships, male identity, passions like interests, hobbies some of which can help overcome suffering not just what Buddhism thinks of suffering. Eg say having no career that fullfills you can generate lots of suffering and steering you towards a more fulfilling life where you use your skills will decrease suffering and increase life satisfaction. 

 

The philosophy tends to attract people who think like kids, that life is just about Buddhism, like kids thinking life is just about playing games. Very shallow? 

 

Too much pop psychology and too little using your own intelligence and internal compass. 

 

 

Yes it is very shallow and dogmatic, like all religions and spiritual paths are.

 

On the other hand aren't you the one who advertised"cheap energetic transmissions" for 10 EUR to that guy with a porn addiction instead of going to a therapist? 😂👍

Edited February 15 by snowymountains

[Barnaby]

11 hours ago, blue eyed snake said:

The was much more traffic in those days and I really hope the bums will gather steam again

This place got destroyed by the US culture wars