Most accurate Golden Flower translation?

[snowymountains]

Which is the most accurate translation in English of "Secret of the Golden Flower" ?

Is it Wilhelm ( disregarding the fact that I gather chapters are missing ) ?

Is is Cleary?

Is it a different translation altogether?

 

[silent thunder]

Wang Li Ping recommends the WilhelmJung translation at retreats.

[blue eyed snake]

1 hour ago, snowymountains said:

Which is the most accurate translation in English of "Secret of the Golden Flower" ?

Is it Wilhelm ( disregarding the fact that I gather chapters are missing ) ?

Is is Cleary?

Is it a different translation altogether?

 

 

i guess to answer that one you have to be fluent in english, chinese and have a good many years of neidan, so I cannot answer that question.  

 

Wilhelm version I like mostly for nostalgic reasons, my version is an heirloom, i cringe at the way he understands this text in a Jungian framework.

The Cleary version is more to the point  

I like this version  https://thesecretofthegoldenflower.com/esposito.html 

 

reading these 3 versions side by side is an interesting experience  

[thelerner]

I read somewhere that the GF instructions had an oral component- teacher to student.  I'm inclined to agree.  That there's an ingredient X.. missing in the instructions.  

 

Course I go back and forth over the years over what is The Light.. metaphor, awareness.. literal.    

[Cobie]

 

Quote

… GF instructions had an oral component … there's an ingredient X.. missing in the instructions.

@Taoist Texts do you think this is true? 
 

 

Edited February 27 by Cobie

[Taoist Texts]

6 hours ago, Cobie said:

@Taoist Texts do you think this is true? 

first of all it does not matter. with or without XXX GF is doable only for a select few not an average reader. Secondly, saying that a book is useless without XXX is bafflingly unreasonable. who would write a useless book? who would read a useless book?...idk ppl just keep saying the damnedest things...

[snowymountains]

To simplify the oral transmission part, while an interesting subtopic, in this case it is not as relevant, I plan to practice the text from a Jungian angle at least as far as the meditation goals are concerned.

It's a good framework when someone doesn't want to buy into a traditional cosmology and goals attached to that cosmology.

 

That said, if there is a more accurate translation than Wilhelm's I will work with that translation, and if this implies changes to Jung's conclusions, that's fine too, but I will still be practicing through similar lenses.

 

It looks like 3 translations are worth looking into!

[Mark Foote]

On 2/26/2024 at 1:43 PM, thelerner said:

I read somewhere that the GF instructions had an oral component- teacher to student.  I'm inclined to agree.  That there's an ingredient X.. missing in the instructions.  
 

There's a missing ingredient in all the wisdom traditions, IMHO--it's missing because it must be supplied through the experience of the individual.  

 

But usually in counting breathing or following breathing, you feel as if you are doing something, you know– you are following breathing, and you are counting breathing. This is, you know, why counting breathing or following breathing practice is, you know, for us it is some preparation– preparatory practice for shikantaza because for most people it is rather difficult to sit, you know, just to sit.

(“The Background of Shikantaza”, Shunryu Suzuki; San Francisco, February 22, 1970)

 

Suzuki said that directing attention to the movement of breath (“following breathing… counting breathing”) has the feeling of “doing something”, and that “doing something” makes such practice only preparatory.
 

Although attention can be directed to the movement of breath, necessity in the movement of breath can also direct attention, as I wrote previously:
 

There can… come a moment when the movement of breath necessitates the placement of attention at a certain location in the body, or at a series of locations, with the ability to remain awake as the location of attention shifts retained through the exercise of presence.
 

There’s a frailty in the structure of the lower spine, and the movement of breath can place the point of awareness in such a fashion as to engage a mechanism of support for the spine, often in stages.

 

... The flow of “doing something” in the body, of activity initiated by habit or volition, (can cease).  Instead, activity is generated purely by the placement of attention, and the location of attention can flow ("just sitting").

 

... The difficulty is that most people will lose consciousness before they cede activity to the location of attention–they lose the presence of mind with the placement of attention, because they can’t believe that action in the body is possible without “doing something”...

(Shunryu Suzuki on Shikantaza and the Theravadin Stages)

 

That the activity flows and develops in particular patterns and particular locations, won't matter whose description is in hand if it's all "doing something".  Doing nothing, yet everything is done, is an experience.

 

[thelerner]

Further down the rabbit hole is Wang Li Ping's translation, a relatively brief last chapter of his book- Ling Bao Tong Zhi Neng Nei Gong Shu. It's a translation by a deeply respected practitioner.

 

  

 It's opposite is the more 'pop' version from Osho, not a person I usually recommend but his translate is an easy read and directed towards Westerners with less Eastern jargon.  

Edited February 28 by thelerner

[blue eyed snake]

8 minutes ago, thelerner said:

Further down the rabbit hole is Wang Li Ping's translation, a relatively brief last chapter of his book- Ling Bao Tong Zhi Neng Nei Gong Shu. It's a translation by deep respected practitioner.  

 It's opposite is the more 'pop' version from Osho, not a person I usually recommend but his translate is an easy read and directed towards Westerners with less Eastern jargon.  

 

thank you for posting that, looking for something else I stumbled on this translation,  

is there someone around who has read this version?

 

https://www.amazon.nl/Secret-Golden-Flower-Alchemy-English-ebook/dp/B00CEIWJ0A

[snowymountains]

33 minutes ago, thelerner said:

Further down the rabbit hole is Wang Li Ping's translation, a relatively brief last chapter of his book- Ling Bao Tong Zhi Neng Nei Gong Shu. It's a translation by deep respected practitioner.  

 It's opposite is the more 'pop' version from Osho, not a person I usually recommend but his translate is an easy read and directed towards Westerners with less Eastern jargon.  

 

Thanks!, is "Ling Bao Tong Zhi Neng Nei Gong Shu" ( which amazon keeps recommending me for some time ) focused on Golden Flower practice?

 

I can't bring myself to read Osho 😁 he did know some stuff too but between that, the Rolls, extravagant statements and some other stuff I just can't take him or his writings seriously.

[thelerner]

16 minutes ago, snowymountains said:

 

Thanks!, is "Ling Bao Tong Zhi Neng Nei Gong Shu" ( which amazon keeps recommending me for some time ) focused on Golden Flower practice?

 

I can't bring myself to read Osho 😁 he did know some stuff too but between that, the Rolls, extravagant statements and some other stuff I just can't take him or his writings seriously.

Pang's book has the Golden flower is about 40 pages in the back.   It goes through each chapter, using a fair amount of Chinese words and contexts.  More than his Daoist Internal Mastery does.  

 

I agree with you on Osho, yet in this particular case I found some value in his writing, though considering his past, you do have to hold your nose a bit

 

Speaking of pop and easily digestible, I found this interesting from David Kilpatrick, a talented designer trying to figure out the Golden Flower.  

https://www.thedaobums.com/topic/37570-golden-flower-thingamabobs/?tab=comments#comment-862716

 

Edited February 28 by thelerner

[silent thunder]

2 hours ago, snowymountains said:

 

Thanks!, is "Ling Bao Tong Zhi Neng Nei Gong Shu" ( which amazon keeps recommending me for some time ) focused on Golden Flower practice?

 

I can't bring myself to read Osho 😁 he did know some stuff too but between that, the Rolls, extravagant statements and some other stuff I just can't take him or his writings seriously.

Ling Bao Tong Zhi was written by Wang Li Ping not Osho

[snowymountains]

1 hour ago, silent thunder said:

Ling Bao Tong Zhi was written by Wang Li Ping not Osho

 

It's two distinct books were discussing, the second one is by Osho 

[silent thunder]

Oh my goodness

[manitou]

5 hours ago, thelerner said:

Further down the rabbit hole is Wang Li Ping's translation, a relatively brief last chapter of his book- Ling Bao Tong Zhi Neng Nei Gong Shu. It's a translation by deep respected practitioner.  

 It's opposite is the more 'pop' version from Osho, not a person I usually recommend but his translate is an easy read and directed towards Westerners with less Eastern jargon.  

  

 

Speaking for the necessity of an 'outside' person (oral tradition of a master, etc)  I think a person could use the metaphor of an AA sponsor.  When someone enters the program, they get a sponsor, who is someone who will help you go through the steps of recovery.  The trick to staying sober (and also, apparently, to achieve clarity of mind) is through self-examination, self-revelation, self-discovery.  Because the new 'sponsoree' is not thinking right when they get to the program, they will fool themselves into thinking they don't need to cover a particular area of behavior because they don't see it.  It takes a sponsor (hopefully, one who knows themself very well) to sometimes point out the areas that the recovering person is missing.  Ego does this to all of us, none of us want to believe that we're flawed.

 

It's through discovering these flaws and taking the steps to correct them (sometimes by apology, etc) that the ego of the person is broken down, and it is only at this point that headway can be made.  Cynicism is left behind, judgments, sarcasm, any trait that gets in our way of getting down to the pure essence.

 

From what I have seen over the years, is that self-realization happens in the same way.  The Master, it could be said, is the sponsor.  It is possible to get to the point where emotional reaction to much of anything becomes a thing of the past.  The acceptance one develops after ridding one's self of the shadows of prior conditioning happens quite naturally.  Slowly, but naturally.

[snowymountains]

30 minutes ago, manitou said:

  It is possible to get to the point where emotional reaction to much of anything becomes a thing of the past.  The acceptance one develops after ridding one's self of the shadows of prior conditioning happens quite naturally.  Slowly, but naturally.

 

That's not necessarily a good thing, it often is a bad spot to be in.

Emotions are signals, that involve more complex processing than our conscious processes, this includes so-called negative emotions.

 

This is actually a tricky point and it depends on the origin of an emotion, if it's not happening as an automatic reaction from a past era that's no longer relevant, an emotional response may well be the healthiest reaction.

 

This is a part which eg Buddhism both in Theravada and Zen varieties get wrong both in principle and also lack the tools.

 

Work on this is actually quite deep as it's a rather subtle point, better done together with a good therapist, and it's one of those topics where masters/roshis/sifus/lamas of various flavours are not good advisors, as they're unqualified for something like this.

 

 

[blue eyed snake]

1 hour ago, manitou said:

From what I have seen over the years, is that self-realization happens in the same way.  The Master, it could be said, is the sponsor.  It is possible to get to the point where emotional reaction to much of anything becomes a thing of the past.  The acceptance one develops after ridding one's self of the shadows of prior conditioning happens quite naturally.  Slowly, but naturally.

 

i like how you formulate that, it makes me think that once you're ready to start this path you'll meet you sponsor

 

or

 

when the student is ready, the master will appear?

[silent thunder]

Of late my experience has evolved from the notion of a human teacher arriving, to that of when one is listening and present in life... all of nature reveals as a teacher.

[Mark Foote]

22 hours ago, silent thunder said:

Of late my experience has evolved from the notion of a human teacher arriving, to that of when one is listening and present in life... all of nature reveals as a teacher.
 

 

... in the end I am convinced that everything I need to know I learn by being where I am, as I am. I just have to be open to it.

(yers truly, from Post: “I tried your practice last night”- humbleone, from “The Dao Bums”)

 

 

Edited February 29 by Mark Foote

[silent thunder]

2 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

 

... in the end I am convinced that everything I need to know I learn by being where I am, as I am. I just have to be open to it.

(yers truly, from Post: “I tried your practice last night”- humbleone, from “The Dao Bums”)

 

 

[blue eyed snake]

On 29-2-2024 at 1:07 AM, silent thunder said:

Of late my experience has evolved from the notion of a human teacher arriving, to that of when one is listening and present in life... all of nature reveals as a teacher.

 

agree, but sometimes one needs a live human teacher pointing some things out, after that you can go on being taught by everything

[oak]

@Mark Foote@silent thunder

I know you both are not much into the bible but couldn't help sharing  Solomon's proverb, " Wisdom is right in front of those with understanding, but the eyes of fools are off to the edges of the earth."

 

[silent thunder]

Aspects of how the bible is used and compiled can be deeply troubling.

This does not mean the bible is without merit entirely for me.  I do not throw the baby out with the bath water.

 

The Anthology that the bible is in its many current varied states was compiled over many centuries by many authors... and re-editors with a variety of levels of comprehension and intents of use. 

 

My issues with how it is used does not apply to all its contents across the board.

 

I was a biblical scholar for many years in my apostacy from evangelical fundamentalism in which I was raised.

 

Some aspects of the offerings contained within are deeply resonant for me to this day and shine with wisdom.

 

 

[snowymountains]

14 minutes ago, silent thunder said:

My issues with how it is used does not apply to all its contents across the board.

 

I was a biblical scholar for many years in my apostacy from evangelical fundamentalism in which I was raised.

 

Some aspects of the offerings contained within are deeply resonant for me to this day and shine with wisdom.

 

 

 

Apparently it was not meant to be read in a single way, nor to have a single scope..

 

https://www.uwyo.edu/news/2015/02/uw-religion-today-how-constantine-created-the-christian-church.html

 

"

why did it take nearly three centuries to found the organized Church? There are three main reasons.

 

... had to allow each community to run itself, as indicated by Paul’s letters to the churches he established.

"

 

Today Christianity is run way more centralised than initially envisioned, at least by Paul.

 

The above kind of implies that the intent was, at least at community level, to freely let people interpret the Bible and in fact, as there was no Bible/official selection of codices, they would even define the selection of texts they'd consider Bible.

 

It sounds like the (almost) single view on what is part of it , it's interpretation and where it applies is due to imperial politics of the time

 

"

Constantine saw Christianity’s belief in one god as a way to unify the empire that had been so badly divided for two decades. But he discovered that Christianity itself was not unified. So, he called the Council of Nicea in 325 to bring together the 1,800 bishops from around the empire to work out official doctrine and provide the basis for a unified Church. Constantine paid for the entire council and even paid for travel, giving bishops the right of free transportation on the imperial postal system.

 

The council laid the foundation of orthodox theology (Catholic theology) and declared several differing theologies heresies. Constantine’s support initially gave Orthodoxy the ability to require Christians to adopt their doctrinal formulation. While during the next few decades, the church’s fortunes waxed and waned, within a century, Christianity had been declared the official religion of the Roman Empire and non-Christian religions were in steep decline.

"