Spotting a fake master

[Mark Foote]

5 hours ago, Master Logray said:

 

If Jesus never demonstrated anything special, would Christianity even exist with his teachings alone?
 

 

The Gospel of Thomas is without question the most significant book discovered in the Nag Hammadi library. Unlike the Gospel of Peter, discovered sixty years earlier, this book is completely preserved. It has no narrative at all, no stories about anything that Jesus did, no references to his death and resurrection. The Gospel of Thomas is a collection of 114 sayings of Jesus.

... The Jesus of this Gospel is not the Jewish messiah that we have seen in other Gospels, not the miracle-working Son of God, not the crucified and resurrected Lord, and not the Son of Man who will return on the clouds of heaven. He is the eternal Jesus whose words bring salvation.

 

Many of the sayings of Jesus in this Gospel will be familiar to those who have read the Synoptic Gospels... Other sayings sound vaguely familiar, yet somewhat peculiar: “Let him who seeks not cease seeking until he finds, and when he finds, he will be troubled, and when he is troubled, he will marvel, and he will rule over the All”.

 

(https://ehrmanblog.org/the-gospel-of-thomas-an-overview/#)

 

 

In the first century of the Common Era, there appeared at the eastern end of the Mediterranean a remarkable religious leader who thaught the worship of one true God and declared that religion meant not the sacrifice of beasts but the practice of charity and piety and the shunning of hatred and enmity.  He was said to have worked miracles of goodness, casting out demons, healing the sick, raising the dead.  His exemplary life led some of his followers to claim he was a son of God, though he called himself the son of man.  Accused of sedition against Rome, he was arrested.  After his death, his disciples claimed he had risen from the dead, appeared to them alive, and then ascended to heaven.  Who was this teacher and wonder-worker?  His name was Apollonius of Tyana; he died about 98 A.D., and his story may be read in Flavius Philostratus's "Life of Apollonius".

(Randel Helms, "Gospel Fictions", p 9)

 

 

Maybe someone here will know better than me, but doesn't the practice of a practicing Christian owe more to Paul than to Jesus?

 

 

Edited March 10 by Mark Foote

[kakapo]

1 hour ago, snowymountains said:

 

Maybe it wouldn't had existed, but did anyone ever demonstrate ever anything special?

 

It is my personal belief that if the stories of Jesus were indeed true, most likely he was not the son of god, but rather trained in a system which developed abilities.

 

[snowymountains]

16 minutes ago, kakapo said:

 

It is my personal belief that if the stories of Jesus were indeed true, most likely he was not the son of god, but rather trained in a system which developed abilities.

 

 

 

People have been creating myths since forever. 

Which myths are true.., the Jesus myths?, the Taoist myths?, the Buddhist myths?, ancient religion myths? ...

 

The common denominator is that we like stories and we like myths. We don't need to take them literally to enjoy an interesting story.

[kakapo]

32 minutes ago, Mark Foote said:

 

The Gospel of Thomas is without question the most significant book discovered in the Nag Hammadi library. Unlike the Gospel of Peter, discovered sixty years earlier, this book is completely preserved. It has no narrative at all, no stories about anything that Jesus did, no references to his death and resurrection. The Gospel of Thomas is a collection of 114 sayings of Jesus.

... The Jesus of this Gospel is not the Jewish messiah that we have seen in other Gospels, not the miracle-working Son of God, not the crucified and resurrected Lord, and not the Son of Man who will return on the clouds of heaven. He is the eternal Jesus whose words bring salvation.

 

Many of the sayings of Jesus in this Gospel will be familiar to those who have read the Synoptic Gospels... Other sayings sound vaguely familiar, yet somewhat peculiar: “Let him who seeks not cease seeking until he finds, and when he finds, he will be troubled, and when he is troubled, he will marvel, and he will rule over the All”.

 

(https://ehrmanblog.org/the-gospel-of-thomas-an-overview/#)

 

 

In the first century of the Common Era, there appeared at the eastern end of the Mediterranean a remarkable religious leader who thaught the worship of one true God and declared that religion meant not the sacrifice of beasts but the practice of charity and piety and the shunning of hatred and enmity.  He was said to have worked miracles of goodness, casting out demons, healing the sick, raising the dead.  His exemplary life led some of his followers to claim he was a son of God, though he called himself the son of man.  Accused of sedition against Rome, he was arrested.  After his death, his disciples claimed he had risen from the dead, appeared to them alive, and then ascended to heaven.  Who was this teacher and wonder-worker?  His name was Apollonius of Tyana; he died about 98 A.D., and his story may be read in Flavius Philostratus's "Life of Apollonius".

(Randel Helms, "Gospel Fictions", p 9)

 

 

Maybe someone here will know better than me, but doesn't the practice of a practicing Christian owe more to Paul than to Jesus?

 

 

 

 

The words attributed to Jesus in that writing have a very clear meaning to me. 

 

I guess I am viewing it through the lens of the school I study but still, the words are uncanny to me.

 

If the claims of Jesus's abilities were true, to me at least it is clear what type of training he did to attain them.

 

 

 

http://gnosis.org/naghamm/gosthom.html

 

"Whoever discovers the interpretation of these sayings will not taste death."

 

"Jesus said to them, "When you make the two into one, and when you make the inner like the outer and the outer like the inner, and the upper like the lower, and when you make male and female into a single one, so that the male will not be male nor the female be female, when you make eyes in place of an eye, a hand in place of a hand, a foot in place of a foot, an image in place of an image, then you will enter [the kingdom]."

 

"If two make peace with each other in a single house, they will say to the mountain, 'Move from here!' and it will move."

 

Jesus said, "When you make the two into one, ..., and when you say, 'Mountain, move from here!' it will move."

 

Jesus said, "If the flesh came into being because of spirit, that is a marvel, but if spirit came into being because of the body, that is a marvel of marvels.

 

Jesus said, "Damn the flesh that depends on the soul. Damn the soul that depends on the flesh."

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

3 minutes ago, snowymountains said:

 

 

People have been creating myths since forever. 

Which myths are true.., the Jesus myths?, the Taoist myths?, the Buddhist myths?, ancient religion myths? ...

 

The common denominator is that we like stories and we like myths. We don't need to take them literally to enjoy an interesting story.

But once you have experienced the things in these myths in real life, you will see that there is some truth to them.

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

1 minute ago, kakapo said:

 

 

The words attributed to Jesus in that writing have a very clear meaning to me. 

 

I guess I am viewing it through the lens of the school I study but still, the words are uncanny to me.

 

If the claims of Jesus's abilities were true, to me at least it is clear what type of training he did to attain them.

 

 

 

http://gnosis.org/naghamm/gosthom.html

 

"Whoever discovers the interpretation of these sayings will not taste death."

 

"Jesus said to them, "When you make the two into one, and when you make the inner like the outer and the outer like the inner, and the upper like the lower, and when you make male and female into a single one, so that the male will not be male nor the female be female, when you make eyes in place of an eye, a hand in place of a hand, a foot in place of a foot, an image in place of an image, then you will enter [the kingdom]."

 

"If two make peace with each other in a single house, they will say to the mountain, 'Move from here!' and it will move."

 

Jesus said, "When you make the two into one, ..., and when you say, 'Mountain, move from here!' it will move."

 

Jesus said, "If the flesh came into being because of spirit, that is a marvel, but if spirit came into being because of the body, that is a marvel of marvels.

 

Jesus said, "Damn the flesh that depends on the soul. Damn the soul that depends on the flesh."

Thank you for sharing! It does seem really clear what he is talking about if you do similar practices. 
 

Really insane how similar it is. 

[kakapo]

9 minutes ago, -ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ- said:

But once you have experienced the things in these myths in real life, you will see that there is some truth to them.

 

“There are more things in Heaven and Earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy.” 

 

Act 1 Scene 5 of Shakespeare’s Hamlet,

[Neirong]

7 hours ago, -ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ- said:

But once you have experienced the things in these myths in real life, you will see that there is some truth to them.

 

People commonly believe that ancient population was crazy, and made up fantasy and myths to entertain kids. This is an easy excuse of a sleeping mind. They think crazy people passed those stories for centuries/thousands years since the earliest days for no other reason but entertainment.

The stories that commonly describe vampires, werewolves, life sapping, succubus/incubus, and many other "fantasy" beings.

Only if any "researcher" actually had made any real research and exploration into the energy worlds, they would find out that ancient people were not crazy. Those things exist, and they are not a part of broken insane imagination, but more like a part of our planet.
There are higher and lower realms of existence beyond physical, those realms are populated. Nations across the world having similar folk stories is not a coincidence, but rather, a result of interaction with some of those beings.

Some of the astral beings can be feeding on humans, like you feed on chicken and vegetables. They do treat you as "battery source" or a "lower lifeform".

P.s. Some of the folk stories, are not only describing things outside of physical dimension, but also talking about biology, medicine, sciences etc.  Dead and living water, when you first disinfect/cleanse with dead water, and then replenish life/rejuvenate with living water. Stories are only slightly adjusted for preservation but are based on real practices/generational wisdom.

Edited March 11 by Neirong

[thelerner]

12 hours ago, Neirong said:

 

People commonly believe that ancient population was crazy, and made up fantasy and myths to entertain kids. This is an easy excuse of a sleeping mind. They think crazy people passed those stories for centuries/thousands years since the earliest days for no other reason but entertainment.

The stories that commonly describe vampires, werewolves, life sapping, succubus/incubus, and many other "fantasy" beings.

Problem I see is when a society over popularized this, it can lead to calling anyone different, that you don't like, has mental problems a witch, warlock, possessed..  as they could when bad luck, sickness and disease appear. 

 

Not saying it's not true but used without wisdom, knowledge and compassion it can lead to pretty dark things.  

 

How should we feel about psychics who's main gig is pointing out astral beings feeding on their new clients and the money charged to remove them?  

 

   

[Maddie]

I'm a fake master. I I can teach you how to be fake if you train with me :-D

[Mark Foote]

21 hours ago, kakapo said:

 

http://gnosis.org/naghamm/gosthom.html

 

"Whoever discovers the interpretation of these sayings will not taste death."

 

These are the secret words which the Living Jesus spoke and Didymos Judas Thomas wrote. And He said:

Whoever finds the explanation of these words will not taste death.

 

(The Gospel According to Thomas, coptic text established and translated by A. Guillaumont, H.-CH. Puech, G. Quispel, W. Till and Yassah ‘Abd Al Masih, p. 3 log. 1, ©1959 E. J. Brill)

 

 

As (one) dwells in body contemplating body, ardent… that desire to do, that is in body, is abandoned. By the abandoning of desire to do, the Deathless is realized. So with feelings… mind… mental states… that desire to do, that is in mind-states, is abandoned. By the abandoning of the desire to do, the Deathless is realized.

 

(SN V 182, Pali Text Society V p 159)

"Jesus said to them, "When you make the two into one, 

 

When you sit, the cushion sits with you. If you wear glasses, the glasses sit with you. Clothing sits with you. House sits with you. People who are moving around outside all sit with you. They don’t take the sitting posture!

(“Aspects of Sitting Meditation”, “Shikantaza”; Kobun Chino Otogawa; http://www.jikoji.org/intro-aspects/)

 

 

and when you make the inner like the outer and the outer like the inner, 

 

From my own writing:

... when I realize my physical sense of location in space, and realize it as it occurs from one moment to the next, then I wake up or fall asleep as appropriate.

 

This practice is useful, when I wake up in the middle of the night and need to go back to sleep, or when I want to feel more physically alive in the morning. This practice is also useful when I want to feel my connection to everything around me, because my sense of place registers the contact of my awareness with each thing, as contact occurs.

 

(Waking Up and Falling Asleep)

 

 

and the upper like the lower,

 

as below, so above: as above, so below...

(Sanyutta-Nikaya, text V 263, Pali Text Society volume 5 pg 235, ©Pali Text Society)

 

Gautama expanded on this line, saying that one should survey the body upwards from the soles of the feet and downwards from the crown of the head, and comprehend the body as a bag of flesh enclosing impurities.
 

 

 

 

Ok, now the Dao Bums mini-editor decides to split!

 

 

Quote

 

and when you make male and female into a single one, so that the male will not be male nor the female be female

 

From my own writing, about the above:

... consciousness of the stretch and activity behind the lower back and in front of the contents of the lower abdomen can become consciousness of stretch and activity behind the sacrum and tailbone and in the vicinity of the genitalia. Such experience is independent of the sex of the individual, and is offered here as a recurrent condition of practice.

(From the Gospel of Thomas)

 

Quote

 

 

when you make eyes in place of an eye, a hand in place of a hand, a foot in place of a foot, an image in place of an image, then you will enter [the kingdom]."

 

 

From my writing:

... These days... I am practicing some kind of scales, as it were.  Gautama outlined the feeling of four states, the initial three and then the “purity by the pureness of [one’s] mind”, the fourth.  I’ve described that “pureness of mind” as what remains when “doing something” ceases, and I wrote:

 

When “doing something” has ceased, and there is “not one particle of the body” that cannot receive the placement of attention, then the placement of attention is free to shift as necessary in the movement of breath.

 

The rest of the scales are looking for a grip where attention takes place in the body, as “one-pointedness” turns and engenders a counter-turn (without losing the freedom of movement of attention); finding ligaments that control reciprocal innervation in the lower body and along the spine through relaxation, and calming the stretch of ligaments; and discovering hands, feet, and teeth together with “one-pointedness” (“bite through here”, as Yuanwu advised; “then we can walk together hand in hand”, as Yuanwu’s teacher Wu Tsu advised).

("To Enjoy Our Life")

 

When there is not one particle of the body that is not pervaded by "purity by the pureness of mind", then there can be "an image in place of an image".    

 

More on the state that proceeds that "purity by the pureness of mind", the state where "you make eyes in place of an eye, a hand in place of a hand, a foot in place of a foot":
 

 

Gautama characterized the third state of concentration as follows:
 

… free from the fervor of zest, (one) enters and abides in the third musing; (one) steeps and drenches and fills and suffuses this body with a zestless ease so that there is not one particle of the body that is not pervaded by this zestless ease. … just as in a pond of blue, white, and red water-lillies, the plants are born in water, grow in water, come not out of the water, but, sunk in the depths, find nourishment, and from tip to root are steeped, drenched, filled and suffused with cold water so that not a part of them is not pervaded by cold water; even so, (one) steeps (one’s) body in zestless ease.

 

(AN III 25-28, Pali Text Society Vol. III pg 18-19)

 

 

In my experience, the base of consciousness can shift to a location that reflects involuntary activity in the limbs and in the jaw and skull. The feeling for activity in the legs, the arms, and the skull is indeed like an awareness of three varieties of one plant grown entirely below a waterline. The experience does have an ease, does require equanimity with regard to the senses, and generally resembles a kind of waking sleep.

 

(The Early Record)

 

Gautama taught that zest ceases in the third concentration, while the feeling of ease continues:
 

(One) enters & remains in the third (state), of which the Noble Ones declare, ‘Equanimous & mindful, (one) has a pleasant abiding.’ 

(Samadhanga Sutta, tr. Thanissaro Bhikkhu, AN 5.28 PTS: A iii 25; Pali Text Society, see AN Book of Threes text I,164; Vol II p 147)

 

That’s a recommendation of the third concentration, especially for long periods. Nevertheless, I find that the stage of concentration that lends itself to practice in the moment is dependent on the tendency toward the free placement of attention. As I wrote in my last post:
 

When a presence of mind is retained as the placement of attention shifts, then the natural tendency toward the free placement of attention can draw out thought initial and sustained, and bring on the stages of concentration.

 

... I practice now to experience the free placement of attention as the sole source of activity in the body in the movement of breath, and in my “complicated, difficult” daily life, I look for the mindfulness that allows me to touch on that freedom.

 

("To Enjoy Our Life")

 

 

 

Edited March 11 by Mark Foote

[snowymountains]

23 hours ago, -ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ- said:

But once you have experienced the things in these myths in real life, you will see that there is some truth to them.

 

I believe all of these have psychological interpretations, I have not seen any evidence suggesting otherwise.

[Nungali]

8 minutes ago, snowymountains said:

 

I believe all of these have psychological interpretations, I have not seen any evidence suggesting otherwise.

 

I thought he meant that the themes in much mythology ( 'the things in these myths' )  we can see reflected in our lives .... so of course, that would be 'psychological interpretations '   ... not that  he ran into a cyclops .

 

But I could be wrong about that      .....  Mr  ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-   ?

[kakapo]

4 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

 

 

Ok, now the Dao Bums mini-editor decides to split!

 

 

From my own writing, about the above:

... consciousness of the stretch and activity behind the lower back and in front of the contents of the lower abdomen can become consciousness of stretch and activity behind the sacrum and tailbone and in the vicinity of the genitalia. Such experience is independent of the sex of the individual, and is offered here as a recurrent condition of practice.

(From the Gospel of Thomas)

 

 

From my writing:

... These days... I am practicing some kind of scales, as it were.  Gautama outlined the feeling of four states, the initial three and then the “purity by the pureness of [one’s] mind”, the fourth.  I’ve described that “pureness of mind” as what remains when “doing something” ceases, and I wrote:

 

When “doing something” has ceased, and there is “not one particle of the body” that cannot receive the placement of attention, then the placement of attention is free to shift as necessary in the movement of breath.

 

The rest of the scales are looking for a grip where attention takes place in the body, as “one-pointedness” turns and engenders a counter-turn (without losing the freedom of movement of attention); finding ligaments that control reciprocal innervation in the lower body and along the spine through relaxation, and calming the stretch of ligaments; and discovering hands, feet, and teeth together with “one-pointedness” (“bite through here”, as Yuanwu advised; “then we can walk together hand in hand”, as Yuanwu’s teacher Wu Tsu advised).

("To Enjoy Our Life")

 

When there is not one particle of the body that is not pervaded by "purity by the pureness of mind", then there can be "an image in place of an image".    

 

More on the state that proceeds that "purity by the pureness of mind", the state where "you make eyes in place of an eye, a hand in place of a hand, a foot in place of a foot":
 

 

Gautama characterized the third state of concentration as follows:
 

… free from the fervor of zest, (one) enters and abides in the third musing; (one) steeps and drenches and fills and suffuses this body with a zestless ease so that there is not one particle of the body that is not pervaded by this zestless ease. … just as in a pond of blue, white, and red water-lillies, the plants are born in water, grow in water, come not out of the water, but, sunk in the depths, find nourishment, and from tip to root are steeped, drenched, filled and suffused with cold water so that not a part of them is not pervaded by cold water; even so, (one) steeps (one’s) body in zestless ease.

 

(AN III 25-28, Pali Text Society Vol. III pg 18-19)

 

 

In my experience, the base of consciousness can shift to a location that reflects involuntary activity in the limbs and in the jaw and skull. The feeling for activity in the legs, the arms, and the skull is indeed like an awareness of three varieties of one plant grown entirely below a waterline. The experience does have an ease, does require equanimity with regard to the senses, and generally resembles a kind of waking sleep.

 

(The Early Record)

 

Gautama taught that zest ceases in the third concentration, while the feeling of ease continues:
 

(One) enters & remains in the third (state), of which the Noble Ones declare, ‘Equanimous & mindful, (one) has a pleasant abiding.’ 

(Samadhanga Sutta, tr. Thanissaro Bhikkhu, AN 5.28 PTS: A iii 25; Pali Text Society, see AN Book of Threes text I,164; Vol II p 147)

 

That’s a recommendation of the third concentration, especially for long periods. Nevertheless, I find that the stage of concentration that lends itself to practice in the moment is dependent on the tendency toward the free placement of attention. As I wrote in my last post:
 

When a presence of mind is retained as the placement of attention shifts, then the natural tendency toward the free placement of attention can draw out thought initial and sustained, and bring on the stages of concentration.

 

... I practice now to experience the free placement of attention as the sole source of activity in the body in the movement of breath, and in my “complicated, difficult” daily life, I look for the mindfulness that allows me to touch on that freedom.

 

("To Enjoy Our Life")

 

 

 

 

 

 

I guess we all look at quotes and see them through the lens of what we are familiar with.

 

For me that would be extracting yin chi from the earth, yang chi from the air, collecting, storing, and fusing these two energies together to make a new substance.