Elaborating the golden pill, my progress and doubts

[Celestial Fox Beast]

I've been required to erase this and any reference on my supositions about the subject.

Edited March 13 by Celestial Fox Beast

[Taoist Texts]

6 hours ago, Celestial Fox Beast said:

I am missing something?

so far you learned how to induce a trance on yourself. it is fun but it is not dao or alch

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found the works of Thomas Cleary and begin studyng his take on taoist Quanzhen text of 11 to 13 century, and, to my surprise, a lot of things are exactly what I experience in my practice,

thats a very common occurrence: a westerner reads his own guesswork instead of what is written in black on white on the page. Happens all the time. Just recently a forumer decided to read TGF as a jungian book...so welcome to the club;)

[Celestial Fox Beast]

Same as above.

Edited March 13 by Celestial Fox Beast

[silent thunder]

8 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

so far you learned how to induce a trance on yourself. it is fun but it is not dao or alch

thats a very common occurrence: a westerner reads his own guesswork instead of what is written in black on white on the page. Happens all the time. Just recently a forumer decided to read TGF as a jungian book...so welcome to the club;)

Another narrative.  Not an objective assessment.

[silent thunder]

[Celestial Fox Beast]

1 minute ago, silent thunder said:

 

 

Nup, I didn't see that, but sometimes when I return or on some practices, I see a sort of geometric lines and patterns, like a tunnel and acceleration, and sometimes when I re-integrate with the physical body, I see like electric circuit patterns behing my eyes, if I move them, they are static, complex, non cambiant... and I am... WTF... so, those are the most similar things I have seed regards your enigmatic photo.

[Taoist Texts]

56 minutes ago, silent thunder said:

Another narrative.  Not an objective assessment.

of course not.  black is white. the obviously troubled posters are not troubled. at all.  there...there ...all is well buddy, all is well. 

[silent thunder]

when a friend points to the moon...

why look at the finger?

[Celestial Fox Beast]

Same as above.

Edited March 13 by Celestial Fox Beast

[snowymountains]

12 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

 

thats a very common occurrence: a westerner reads his own guesswork instead of what is written in black on white on the page. Happens all the time. Just recently a forumer decided to read TGF as a jungian book...so welcome to the club;)

 

I assume you refer to my GF thread and of course, as long as one doesn't buy into the cosmology, it can only be treated psychologically.

 

Of course you're free to take at face value any ancient or mediaeval cosmologies you wish

 

Edited March 10 by snowymountains

[Mark Foote]

1 hour ago, Celestial Fox Beast said:

 

If I see those things in my normal state, I would also think that I have a problem (a serious one), all that I describe happens after opening the mysterious path, which, in my humble interpretation (may be wrong) is self induced sleep paralysis, but in a way that you are not bound to material mind and its illusions. This state is known for its hypnagogic and hypnopompic hallucinations, very vivid and intense,  and I also have a foot on pure skepticism and modern science that, what I do, is just playing with my brain.

 

I honestly don't believe that after seeing and experimenting some phenomena, but I MUST contemplate the possibility, because letting both foots into magic thinking is just dangerous.
 

 

Let me confess, I've only ever read a few passages from GF.  

I played with hypnosis a lot as a teenager, both with hypnotizing others and with autohypnosis. 

 

I met a Zen teacher in the early '70's, listened to a few of his lectures but never tried to be a formal student.  By then I was sitting half-lotus for at least short intervals daily, but the period length at the local Zen Center where I went for the lectures was 40 minutes, so I started aiming for that.

In the '80's, that same Zen teacher closed a lecture at S. F. Zen Center by saying:  "You know, sometimes zazen gets up and walks around."  I had exactly that experience in 1975, in a room off the Golden Gate Park panhandle in San Francisco--I'm guessing it was partly from exposure to the Zen teacher, just like when I took judo and everybody in the dojo picked up the master teacher's favorite throw.  Kind of an osmosis thing.

 

The difficulty was in integrating that experience back into my daily life.

Now when I sit down on the cushion, I open myself to a particular experience:
 

The presence of mind can utilize the location of attention to maintain the balance of the body and coordinate activity in the movement of breath, without a particularly conscious effort to do so.  There can also come a moment when the movement of breath necessitates the placement of attention at a certain location in the body, or at a series of locations, with the ability to remain awake as the location of attention shifts retained through the exercise of presence.

 

(Common Ground)

 

 

That necessity is not simply the necessity for breath:

 

There’s a frailty in the structure of the lower spine, and the movement of breath can place the point of awareness in such a fashion as to engage a mechanism of support for the spine, often in stages.

 

(A Way of Living).

 

 

I believe the location of attention that shifts and moves is what Mencius described as the "heart-mind"--I believe it was Mencius who said, "seek the release of the heart-mind".  I would put that another way:

 

When “doing something” has ceased, and there is “not one particle of the body” that cannot receive the placement of attention, then the placement of attention is free to shift as necessary in the movement of breath.

 

When a presence of mind is retained as the placement of attention shifts, then the natural tendency toward the free placement of attention can draw out thought initial and sustained, and bring on the stages of concentration:

 

… there is no need to depend on teaching. But the most important thing is to practice and realize our true nature… [laughs]. This is, you know, Zen.
 

(Shunryu Suzuki, Tassajara 68-07-24 transcript from shunryusuzuki.com)

 

 

(Shunryu Suzuki on Shikantaza and the Theravadin Stages)

 

The experience of the heart-mind, of the mind that moves, is in a sense "other-worldly"--action proceeds from the location of the heart-mind, and not by will or volition.  

 

The difficulty is that most people will lose consciousness before they cede activity to the location of attention–they lose the presence of mind with the placement of attention, because they can’t believe that action in the body is possible without “doing something”...

 

(ibid)

 

 

 

 

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Sometimes when you are back from those practices, for a couple of minutes, you can see things that are coincident with other people that also practice spiritual meditations, last time, I see a sort of translucid spider on the wall... I get closer and I notice that the crature was a sort of bag full of eggs with spider legs... and then it fade away. I also have seen black strings suspended in the air, bulbs on corners and... generally ugly thingys inside houses. Of course, only for a brief time after ending a practice, and not always...

 

Sounds like scopolamine.

 

 

Edited March 10 by Mark Foote

[Celestial Fox Beast]

Same.

Edited March 13 by Celestial Fox Beast

[Forestgreen]

20 hours ago, snowymountains said:

as long as one doesn't buy into the cosmology, it can only be treated psychologically.

Do you think that the experiences discussed in meditation texts are best treated from a Jungian perspective, or from a more modern sensory processing perspective?  

I tend to lean on the later, but I also focus on the theravada abhidhamma and the WuZhen Pian, so I am cherrypicking to support my confirmation bias. 

[thelerner]

On 3/10/2024 at 12:56 PM, silent thunder said:

Never understood the prevalence of mystical pictures with fractal imagery and figures full of eyes til I tried psilocybin mushrooms.  

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

1 hour ago, thelerner said:

Never understood the prevalence of mystical pictures with fractal imagery and figures full of eyes til I tried psilocybin mushrooms.  

The interesting thing is how everyone seems to see the same thing regardless of background and culture 

[snowymountains]

5 hours ago, Forestgreen said:

Do you think that the experiences discussed in meditation texts are best treated from a Jungian perspective, or from a more modern sensory processing perspective?  

I tend to lean on the later, but I also focus on the theravada abhidhamma and the WuZhen Pian, so I am cherrypicking to support my confirmation bias. 

 

Depends, in general I prefer working directly with sensations, as this is less prone to misinterpretations but for GF in specific Jung has given commentary, so I'm interested in reading what he's said on GF and compare it to my experiences when I practice it, in this approach using the same framework is the only way. For some types of meditation too, i.e. journeying, a Jungian approach is also a good fit.

 

The Abhidhamma is high quality work, as long as one treats it a psychology model, not an absolute truth. Haven't read the WuZhen Pian, so can't comment on that.

 

 

[Celestial Fox Beast]

So... what GF should I start with? the Thomas Cleary version or the old one?

[thelerner]

3 hours ago, Celestial Fox Beast said:

So... what GF should I start with? the Thomas Cleary version or the old one?

If you wanna start now, let me suggest a 3rd choice- http://thesecretofthegoldenflower.com/

I like it. 

 

Note that my browser Chrome called it an unsecured site.  Not sure what that means but I've been there several times.  

[Nintendao]

On 3/9/2024 at 8:55 PM, Celestial Fox Beast said:

how do you start the alchemic process?

if your not in a position to enroll in an established lineage you can request visitation by ascended master. if all you are meeting is ghosts just keep purifying to attract attention from higher up. can do purely xing e.g. constantly reciting scripture and doing authentically good deeds. or refining ming like standing in horse stance for six hours a day. find a balance that works for you.

 

something might be worth a try, if it looks good to you, sit in with the free xiao yao pai sessions, if there still on, and see if anything comes through..

https://www.thedaobums.com/topic/55100-free-healing-activation-for-neidan-xiao-yao-pai

 

[Forestgreen]

2 hours ago, Nintendao said:

 enroll in an established lineage

This would be the most reasonable strategy for @Celestial Fox Beast to learn how to start the alchemical process. 

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 refining ming like standing in horse stance for six hours a day. 

This would give some results. 

Not the results that are based  on an alchemical process of reversal, but there are many processes that are called spiritual, so why not?

Edited March 12 by Forestgreen
Added tag.

[Celestial Fox Beast]

Same.

Edited March 13 by Celestial Fox Beast

[Forestgreen]

26 minutes ago, Celestial Fox Beast said:

classic texts by old masters like Chang Po Tuan 

I do not recognize your experiences from the WuZhenPian. 

But aren't there similarities with some texts from the Zhong-Lu tradition?

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 BUT, if you know how to induce yourself in conscient sleep paralisis and have plenty of experience with bilocation, you will see that they are refering to those things, and also you will know that they also know how to do it and that their teachings are a guide to utilize that potential, instead of being a mere filosofical/meditation philosopy.

That has no part in my practice, which is informed by my understanding of the WuZhenPian. Reversal, to get back to the One.

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I know that apparently, and sadly, I am the onyly one that have done this correlation, but if I am wrong, that also means that the results of proper internal alchemy are NOT of my interest at all.. because I don't have any interest in what modern practicioners obtain of it, I have interest in the literal things that old text say you would attain, I want true inmortality, true trascendance.

So do I, but that doesn't include anything less than the quest for Celestial inmortality. Service in the grotto heavens or whatever realm is not really a goal, but then I am not a daoist so...

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That's why I can't join a modern certified lineage group, because I don't have interest in what they are doing.

I don't really know what they do, so cannot comment that.