Is a nondual realisation equivalent to a kundalini activation?

[Bindi]

17 hours ago, old3bob said:

 

The term non-dualism (also the terms qualified non-dualism and duality) have been around for a very long time in traditional "eastern" ways!   Meaning a very long time before some or certain "western" intellectuals or wana-be types co-opted it and set up schools of dubious doctrine;  so does that now mean that all non-dualists are in the same pot as that?  I'd say no by a long shot; and granted proven precautions need be taken with teachers and schools but neither are all yogi's,  guru's, Christians, shrinks, etc..  in the same pots because some have co-opted aspects of those teachings for ego driven designs, or fanatical like misunderstandings,  thus we have some bad apples making the all the barrels look bad.   Such has come into play for just about every "way" that has come down the pike but to me that doesn't mean being a die-hard cynic about such situations is the best course to take, and I think its fair to ask where will such an attitude get a person?

 

 

From the same source that I quoted previously, there was also this paragraph. 

When the mind, having pure sattva as its characteristic remains attending to the aham sphurana, which is the sign of the forthcoming direct experience of the Self, the downward-facing heart becomes upward-facing, blossoms and remains in the form of that [the Self]; [because of this] the aforesaid attention to the source of the aham sphurana alone is the path. When thus attended to, Self, the reality, alone will remain shining in the centre of the Heart as ‘I am I’.

 

Bhagavan included the full text of verse 18 and 19 of Ulladu Narpadu Anubandham after ‘downward-facing heart’ in the original Tamil, but to include them again here would make the text rather cumbersome. However, it is clear that he was supplementing the material in those verses by saying that at the moment of realisation the closed downward-facing bud turns upwards, blooms, and remains in that state.

 

So, there are two key things that happen at the moment of realisation: the ‘tiny hole’ opens and remains permanently open, and the inverted bud turns upwards and blooms.

 I’ve been thinking about this for a couple of days, my mother saw a downward facing bud in my heart area a couple of years ago, she saw it turn upward, she saw the exact mechanism by which it managed this action, she then saw it bloom and like a lily open and close a few times, grow higher, then change from dark red to white, open slowly again, and reveal a miniature ‘me’ sitting inside. This was over quite a few days btw, and I recall briefly chatting to another TDB member about it at the time. I have mentioned before that my mother never had any idea what she was seeing, and to be honest the only way I have been able to start cobbling together any sort of map of the subtle energy body is largely by reading what other people have seen and said about it, and trying to start seeing the big picture of it all using my own logic. What I would say in relation to the above quote and how it relates to my path, is that this was not my realised Self, though perhaps it was an aspect of Self that hasn’t been realised yet in some way, perhaps the hole that he mentioned didn’t open concurrently, but what Ramana says at least leads to some small possible piece of this puzzle being explained in the slightest way. Just hearing that he has seen this helps me in a way. 
 

But just seeing some part of the subtle body isn’t even the final word, as understanding what it means in reality can only be done with the best information currently at hand and very strict logic. An analogy might be a person seeing something through a microscope when it was first invented, and really not having a clue about what they were seeing,  but over time and with a lot of people adding information to the puzzle, things will get named and how things actually work at a microscopic level will start to be understood. 

I relate this snippet precisely to explain why I am highly cynical about general claims of awakening and enlightenment and realisation from people who aren’t talking about these things and deny the existence of this level, preferring concepts of realisation beyond all physical and subtle levels of oneself. 
 

 

17 hours ago, old3bob said:

 

Btw, there is a saying in Buddhism that I don't fully remember at the moment along the lines of: "no blame"  and also one in Taoism along the lines of not striving with others fosters no blame.

Any one should feel free to further propound on those sayings if they'd like to since its early in the morning here and I'm not that up on them anyway...

 

 

 

[old3bob]

 

Thanks for sharing your descriptive and personal reflections Bindi! 

Btw.  in your studies what teachings have you come across for the end game of the casual or evolving soul body?  (while teachings on the Self say it never has and never does evolve for then it could it also devolve...)

 

[Bindi]

On 22/3/2024 at 4:46 PM, old3bob said:

 

Thanks for sharing your descriptive and personal reflections Bindi! 

Btw.  in your studies what teachings have you come across for the end game of the casual or evolving soul body?  (while teachings on the Self say it never has and never does evolve for then it could it also devolve...)

 

Sorry it took so long to respond, I came across this description from Gopi Krishna recently, I concur with his concept of us as evolving organisms, and that kundalini is the factor that allows the next sense evolution to occur. I’m not sure this is what you were asking actually, as this is the current end game for us as embodied organisms, not just a soul body, but this is all I’ve got! 

 

 

Thinking across disciplines and philosophies, Krishna’s light seems highly likely to be the Shen referred to in Daoism/Neidan. Also the “Stupendous intelligence that I can sense but never fathom, [which] looms behind every object and every event in the universe, silent, still, serene, and immovable like a mountain” sounds remarkably like the Dao. 
 

 

Edited April 22 by Bindi

[old3bob]

 

I think that is a great excerpt from said author!   The light/Shakti for him is  described as settling into a wonderful/awesome 24/7 presence and who could ask for more concerning  evolution!   I'd also say it can be piercing like an arc-light that is way to bright and blinding to look at although that may just be part of a transition to his description?  Yet if light goes inside of itself what will it find, I'd say its Source...beyond description and memory which can not nail it down.

 

 

 

 

[Forestgreen]

On 2024-03-22 at 4:21 AM, Bindi said:

 my mother saw a downward facing bud in my heart area a couple of years ago, she saw it turn upward, she saw the exact mechanism by which it managed this action, 

Gyalwa Yangönpa: Secret map of the body, page 57 and 237, might be informative for you on this one. 

[Bindi]

On 22/4/2024 at 5:33 PM, old3bob said:

 

I think that is a great excerpt from said author!   The light/Shakti for him is  described as settling into a wonderful/awesome 24/7 presence and who could ask for more concerning  evolution!   I'd also say it can be piercing like an arc-light that is way to bright and blinding to look at although that may just be part of a transition to his description?  Yet if light goes inside of itself what will it find, I'd say its Source...beyond description and memory which can not nail it down.

 

 

 

 

Too bright, too hot, too painful, too anything, is to my understanding because conditions weren’t set up adequately for kundalini to rise. 

[old3bob]

7 hours ago, Bindi said:

Too bright, too hot, too painful, too anything, is to my understanding because conditions weren’t set up adequately for kundalini to rise. 

 

and which almost killed Gopi Krishna even though his intentions and practice were  100% devotional, hopeful and pure according to his recounting as I remember reading it... anyway a million volts, as an analogy, is still a million volts and preparation is wise but still one can only make so many preparations before getting shocked (figuratively) one way or another.

 

[blue eyed snake]

On 17-3-2024 at 12:55 AM, idiot_stimpy said:

Question for discussion, is a nondual realisation equivalent to a kundalini activation?

 

Are they both a means to the same end? 

 

A nondual seeing simulating the kundalini, or energetically stimulating the kundalini leading to a nondual seeing?

 

 

can only give my personal experience,

 

Kundalini came totally unexpected and it cut away ego in one fell swoop. for many weeks I walked around dazed.

That one fell swoop had made me realize that those stories that I had always shrugged away as woowoo were true, that ego was made out of nothing, that the phrase "were all one" has substance.

 

but I could not live like that and a new storyline, a new ego built up. again reactive et cetera

Now with the underlying knowledge that it is just a story

 

 

[Bindi]

13 hours ago, old3bob said:

 

and which almost killed Gopi Krishna even though his intentions and practice were  100% devotional, hopeful and pure according to his recounting as I remember reading it... anyway a million volts, as an analogy, is still a million volts and preparation is wise but still one can only make so many preparations before getting shocked (figuratively) one way or another.

 

In my experience there can be enough preparation when the right directions are followed, either via dreams or a seer. You know the water system referred to in neidan, I have found that when that water system is set up correctly, kundalini can be likened to a nuclear reactor rod that is kept perfectly cool in water. Without the constant supply of cooling water there can only be intolerable shock. 

[Bindi]

7 hours ago, blue eyed snake said:

 

 

can only give my personal experience,

 

Kundalini came totally unexpected and it cut away ego in one fell swoop. for many weeks I walked around dazed.

That one fell swoop had made me realize that those stories that I had always shrugged away as woowoo were true, that ego was made out of nothing, that the phrase "were all one" has substance.

 

but I could not live like that and a new storyline, a new ego built up. again reactive et cetera

Now with the underlying knowledge that it is just a story

 

 

Interesting, and completely authentic experience IMO. 

[old3bob]

3 hours ago, Bindi said:

In my experience there can be enough preparation when the right directions are followed, either via dreams or a seer. You know the water system referred to in neidan, I have found that when that water system is set up correctly, kundalini can be likened to a nuclear reactor rod that is kept perfectly cool in water. Without the constant supply of cooling water there can only be intolerable shock. 

 

that's a good analogy,  and goes a very long ways in helping but in the end neither a teacher nor a system can take a certain step for us which only we can take...

[old3bob]

10 hours ago, blue eyed snake said:

 

 

can only give my personal experience,

 

Kundalini came totally unexpected and it cut away ego in one fell swoop. for many weeks I walked around dazed.

That one fell swoop had made me realize that those stories that I had always shrugged away as woowoo were true, that ego was made out of nothing, that the phrase "were all one" has substance.

 

but I could not live like that and a new storyline, a new ego built up. again reactive et cetera

Now with the underlying knowledge that it is just a story

 

 

well we could also say that even though ego holds on it has in certain cases been indelibly impacted and seen as a passing construct, thus it can never regain the power it had once commandeered...

Edited April 26 by old3bob

[Bindi]

4 minutes ago, old3bob said:

 

that's a good analogy,  and goes a very long ways in helping but in the end neither a teacher nor a system can take a certain step for us which only we can take...

Sure, we have to take the steps (though there are some exceptions to us having to do some things sometimes), but the importance of correct directions is paramount. I liked another thing Gopi Krishna said, something along the lines of there are immutable laws pertaining to the subtle energy body just as there are in physics, I do agree with this, and I fully believe that if we’re not given the right information about these immutable laws then we cannot be effective in the construction of the subtle energy system. Finding the right teacher or the right system is imperative, especially if we’re willing to do whatever is required of us. 

[old3bob]

On 4/25/2024 at 7:06 PM, Bindi said:

In my experience there can be enough preparation when the right directions are followed, either via dreams or a seer. You know the water system referred to in neidan, I have found that when that water system is set up correctly, kundalini can be likened to a nuclear reactor rod that is kept perfectly cool in water. Without the constant supply of cooling water there can only be intolerable shock. 

 

revisiting this in another context:  We could ask if  the temptation of Jesus Christ was real?  Could he have failed and fallen and if not then could we say that that test was not real?  Was  his life journey painless and smooth,  (per  all his divine experience, spiritual being,  preparations and well developed subtle body of proven acts in the world of mankind) well and for example there are several a major examples opposite to a painless and smooth journey for instance the very knarly mountain of doubt that he had and faced,  namely,  "my God, my God why has thou forsaken me"? 

 

Edited April 28 by old3bob

[old3bob]

so I'd say a potential waterloo level test matched to or privy like for us particular beings is  somewhere in the wings until overcome.  

Edited April 29 by old3bob

[Bindi]

On 28/4/2024 at 8:32 AM, old3bob said:

so I'd say a potential waterloo level test matched to or privy like for us particular beings is  somewhere in the wings until overcome.  

Honestly I have no idea, the most we can do is get our subtle energy body operating smoothly, and from then on face adversity in our healthiest way possible. 

[old3bob]

11 hours ago, Bindi said:

Honestly I have no idea, the most we can do is get our subtle energy body operating smoothly, and from then on face adversity in our healthiest way possible. 

 

true enough,  and there is the saying,  “So do not worry about tomorrow; for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own. Math. 6:34

 

maybe another way to express the my previous ramblings is that our karma is in the wings (so to speak) until faced and corrected, but to face all of it suddenly could overwhelm most of us...and a warning for most of us is that in seeking enlightenment and or an enlightened teacher is that then instant karma may come into play...

 

Edited May 1 by old3bob

[Bindi]

10 hours ago, old3bob said:

 

true enough,  and there is the saying,  “So do not worry about tomorrow; for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own. Math. 6:34

 

maybe another way to express the my previous ramblings is that our karma is in the wings (so to speak) until faced and corrected, but to face all of it suddenly could overwhelm most of us...and a warning for most of us is that in seeking enlightenment and or an enlightened teacher is that then instant karma may come into play...

 

Specifically in relation to karma, I have come to believe through personal experience that this is exactly kundalini’s role in the central channel, I believe that kundalini is the only way we can resolve all karma (in an orderly way following natural laws), and that resolving karma in the central channel via kundalini rising is the natural next step after first resolving the mental and emotional complexes that we are weighed down with from this life. In this approach there is no danger of overwhelm, and only a teacher who inappropriately meddles with a followers kundalini could create an overwhelming karmic situation. 

[old3bob]

 

we've had a lot of first hand accounts from people where things went awry or worse who had good intentions and thought their teacher or themselves were on the right track via some positive results,  but to me when walking a knife edge there are still tests for falling or getting cuts until that walk is finished even for advanced students or those far along on the walk... 

 

the saying/story about the "plans of mice and men" used as an analogy comes to mind.

 

[Bindi]

14 minutes ago, old3bob said:

 

we've had a lot of first hand accounts from people where things went awry or worse who had good intentions and thought their teacher or themselves were on the right track via some positive results,  but to me when walking a knife edge there are still tests for falling or getting cuts until that walk is finished even for advanced students or those far along on the walk... 

 

the saying/story about the "plans of mice and men" used as an analogy comes to mind.

 

Fair ‘nuff, I’ll report if things go awry 🙂

[Ajay0]

On 3/17/2024 at 5:25 AM, idiot_stimpy said:

Question for discussion, is a nondual realisation equivalent to a kundalini activation?

 

Are they both a means to the same end? 

 

A nondual seeing simulating the kundalini, or energetically stimulating the kundalini leading to a nondual seeing?

 

Kundalini activation does not mean that the energy will climb all the chakras to the top without the necessary preparation.

 

Regular spiritual practices, satsang , disciplined lifestyle especially monastic, purified food for a period of time ensures that the energy will go to the top resulting in the unitary perception. 

 

For most, the kundalini activatation can result in high sexual energies, which if not successfully transmuted, will be wasted away in sex or masturbation. 

[blue eyed snake]

On 26-4-2024 at 6:55 AM, old3bob said:

 

well we could also say that even though ego holds on it has in certain cases been indelibly impacted and seen as a passing construct, thus it can never regain the power it had once commandeered...

 

yes, that sums it up nicely

[Bindi]

On 21/3/2024 at 2:37 AM, old3bob said:

 

I'd say that last sentence is more or true if taken as or is based only on a conceptional/intellectual manifesto which most anyone could spin up. (and which btw. could have certain value at that level)  Anyway from many of your posts Bindi  it sounds like you're striving to put  most "non-duality" people or schools in the same and incomplete pot as that?  Whereas true non-duality realization (aka. as Self realization in the small lotus of the heart as pointed to in the Upanishads or some other teachings) does not and can not be limited in that way; namely empty of meaning and as an "unguided rocket fired off into space".

 

As it is stated in the Bhagavad Gita, chapter 8, verse 12, "Mind, including ego, thoughts, and desires, must fall in the heart, while the life-force (or Brahman Shakti) is released to the sahasrar."

 

Beyond ego death there has to be identification with “Brahman Shakti”, and “Brahman Shakti” has to rise to the sahasra via the jiva Nadi. Brahman Shakti is the driver of the rocket, without this it’s all just academic. 

[old3bob]

10 hours ago, Bindi said:

 

As it is stated in the Bhagavad Gita, chapter 8, verse 12, "Mind, including ego, thoughts, and desires, must fall in the heart, while the life-force (or Brahman Shakti) is released to the sahasrar."

 

Beyond ego death there has to be identification with “Brahman Shakti”, and “Brahman Shakti” has to rise to the sahasra via the jiva Nadi. Brahman Shakti is the driver of the rocket, without this it’s all just academic. 

 

Well it is written that Prana (or Brahma Shakti as you say) springs from the Self, and without the Self as identity I'd agree that it's all just academic wondering, which also has a place until it doesn't.  (for indestructible Self can not be added to or subtracted from for It Is,  thus beyond the common getting or losing of things.

 

Edited September 30 by old3bob

[forestofclarity]

On 4/25/2024 at 12:05 PM, blue eyed snake said:

but I could not live like that and a new storyline, a new ego built up. again reactive et cetera

Now with the underlying knowledge that it is just a story

 

I also strongly suspect that there is an underlying change to the physio-energetic nervous system that allows this sort of expansion to be more accessible, even if not as colorful in future iterations.