Apech Posted March 21 7 minutes ago, liminal_luke said: I reckon there are a few enlightened beings presently active on the board. One likely enlightened being @deci belle was kicked out several years back for bad behavior, but hey, nobody´s perfect. wot? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
liminal_luke Posted March 21 4 minutes ago, Apech said: wot? What does that mean? Google suggests waste of time but that doesn´t sound right. I´m going with "who´d of thought." Please enlighten. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
silent thunder Posted March 21 I don't recall deci being banned, but leaving. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
liminal_luke Posted March 21 Just now, silent thunder said: I don't recall deci being banned, but leaving. You might be right. Perhaps it was just that she was suspended and then decided not to come back. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stirling Posted March 22 1 hour ago, Apech said: I don't mind if you find what I say unbelievable that's ok. I think you should check out some of these arhats to see how arhat they really are though. The ones in my town are all either friends or acquaintances. The ones I have met previously, were my teachers or their peers. 1 hour ago, Apech said: ... and is that really enlightenment? as in awakened as a Buddha? Presumably not. I won't way that they are Buddhas necessarily, but arhats certainly. I think any exact criteria is somewhat muddled beyond that point. Awakening is much more common. What would your criteria for enlightened be? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stirling Posted March 22 1 hour ago, Apech said: My sweet summer child ... be careful out there won't you. Nice of you to think of me so kindly, but I have seen and met a number of entities of various kinds without fear or harm. Which ones are you are concerned about? Most of what I see/meet doesn't introduce itself. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mark Foote Posted March 22 (edited) 8 hours ago, old3bob said: so we can say cats have Buddha nature or Taoist nature.... But does a dog have buddha-nature? (couple of famous cases about that) Edited March 22 by Mark Foote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mark Foote Posted March 22 (edited) On 3/20/2024 at 9:01 PM, idiot_stimpy said: I was reading recently whereby someone stated it was impossible to gain enlightenment without transmission from a lineage. Is it possible to awaken without transmission? Can you wake up by reading the cheat codes in a book as opposed to learning them from a living teacher? It's a fascinating question, IMHO. The Zen tradition in particular likes to point to an unbroken transmission of the teaching, from Gautama the Shakyan to Kashyapa and down through the ages. The Denkoroku, written by one of Dogen's dharma heirs, purports to trace that transmission, but there is a point in the record where an assumption of person-to-person transmission is made but no name is provided. Actually, there's a story in the "sermon of the decease" (Pali Canon) about what happened after Gautama's death, and there Kashyapa is said to have received the bowl and robe after Gautama's death. The bowl and robe apparently went to China with Bodhidharma, but was no longer transmitted after the Sixth Patriarch. Seems that people were willing to kill to obtain the robe and bowl at that point, so the tradition was discontinued. Here's where the "unpopular opinion" thread lives on! In my opinion, when Gautama said "the cessation of inbreathing and outbreathing", he meant the cessation of "determinate thought" in inbreathing and outbreathing. Habit and volition with regard to the activity of the body in inbreathing and outbreathing only really cease when the location of awareness becomes the source of activity--awareness acts by virtue of location alone, as awareness shifts and moves (or not). That's "just sitting". Those who can "just sit" with aplomb are considered enlightened, for the most part. No amount of description amounts to the experience. The experience is really very much a physical thing, and being in the presence of someone who "just sits" with aplomb can be helpful--the experience can "rub off", as it were. Gautama described "purity by the pureness of mind" as a characteristic of the fourth concentration, that's "just sitting". Gautama's enlightenment, meanwhile, was associated with his attainment of the cessation of ("determinate thought") in feeling and perceiving, a whole other level of experience--the cessation of "doing something" in feeling and perceiving, the action of the mind. HIs enlightenment consisted of his insight into the four truths, and in particular into the dependent origination (and cessation) of suffering. Gautama said that until a person attained enlightenment, they must work at moral behavior, but afterward the tendency toward anything but moral behavior would be "cut off" like a palm tree reduced to a stump. Now it happens that for Gautama, sexual intercourse was a fatal failing, grounds for expulsion from the Order. The teachers who have been the most influential in my life were all married (Zen teachers). Draw your own conclusions. Edited March 22 by Mark Foote 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
old3bob Posted March 22 3 hours ago, Mark Foote said: But does a dog have buddha-nature? (couple of famous cases about that) Yep, been a long time since I read that one... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Apech Posted March 22 11 hours ago, stirling said: The ones in my town are all either friends or acquaintances. The ones I have met previously, were my teachers or their peers. I won't way that they are Buddhas necessarily, but arhats certainly. I think any exact criteria is somewhat muddled beyond that point. Awakening is much more common. What would your criteria for enlightened be? Well of course it depends on the definition. Our vary it seems. I have practiced only in the Mahayana so an arhat is considered a narrow definition of the goal (or that is the impression I get as I have given it little thought). In Mahayana we have the bhumis of the bodhisattva path - so I guess at least first Bhumi although I'm not sure even that is 'enlightened'. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Apech Posted March 22 11 hours ago, stirling said: Nice of you to think of me so kindly, but I have seen and met a number of entities of various kinds without fear or harm. Which ones are you are concerned about? Most of what I see/meet doesn't introduce itself. There are more things in heaven and on earth ... etc. I think genuine malevolence exists and should be avoided - whether in a person or entity. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mark Foote Posted March 22 7 hours ago, Apech said: There are more things in heaven and on earth ... And smelt so? Pah! (Hamlet 5.1.181–184) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Apech Posted March 22 37 minutes ago, Mark Foote said: And smelt so? Pah! (Hamlet 5.1.181–184) I could be prison’d in a nutshell yet count myself the king of infinite space. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
blue eyed snake Posted March 22 (edited) On 21-3-2024 at 7:17 PM, old3bob said: consider substituting the somewhat mechanical sounding word "transmission" with Grace and try going from there... ehm... I dunno what enlightenment is, nobody knows I guess, for those who claim to know in general strike me as conceited knowitalls but anyways, what did I wanna say ah yes, grace, grace descends on you, it's not something you do, but one has to be able to receive. It's a vertical process ( and I guess that what's commonly called grounding is the needed counterpart to balance it) Spoiler Transmission at first glance is a horizontal process, energetically transmission between 2 humans. It transmits information, "light" from the giver to the receiver. Spoiler difference being that this image shows to persons equal in "light" whereby transmission of a linage-holder, literally holds more. I guess that part of the package is transformed vertical energy aka grace. just some associations that popped up Edited March 22 by blue eyed snake typos 2 1 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wstein Posted March 23 On 3/20/2024 at 11:01 PM, idiot_stimpy said: I was reading recently whereby someone stated it was impossible to gain enlightenment without transmission from a lineage. Is it possible to awaken without transmission? Can you wake up by reading the cheat codes in a book as opposed to learning them from a living teacher? There is also the possibility of unseen help from forces that are not of this realm. I'm in two minds about the answer to this question, some perspective would be appreciated. First of all, cheat codes are not going to help, to achieve any sort of self awareness requires one to be aware. Others can provide helpful experiences or guidance to make that process a bit easier. Help from other realms is not much different than help from this realm. As to the need for transmission, this is obviously not required. The first 'master' had to become enlightened somehow. Having done something like transmission (inducing inner silence), my experience is that it was not all that helpful to those trying to learn. Having experiences does not teach how to get there on your own. It can serve as a marker of when you do get there on your own. I make no claims of whatever you think enlightenment is. However, I discovered most of the spiritual 'truths' found in books and some not in books, without any assistance that I know of. Oh, I so wanted help with that process, but alas. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
doc benway Posted March 23 On 3/21/2024 at 12:01 AM, idiot_stimpy said: I was reading recently whereby someone stated it was impossible to gain enlightenment without transmission from a lineage. I also saw the below posted on a Facebook group. Is it possible to awaken without transmission? Can you wake up by reading the cheat codes in a book as opposed to learning them from a living teacher? There is also the possibility of unseen help from forces that are not of this realm. I'm in two minds about the answer to this question, some perspective would be appreciated If you look at the number of spiritual practitioners in the history of our world and the number of verified enlightened human beings, living or "dead," I think it is equally true to say "the probability of attaining enlightenment WITH the help of an enlightened master is near zero." This might belong in the Unpopular Opinions threads but it seems relevant here - Enlightenment does not exist outside of the mind. It is a wonderful and exciting idea that is easy to conceptualize. It can be great for motivation, for finding security, and for defining our personal metaphysics. There are many of us who have experiences of freedom, clarity, and opening of the heart/mind to varying degrees, and these experiences can be unbelievably profound and transformative, but it is the mind that creates and grasps at a condition or ideal of human or spiritual perfection. While we may point to this or that person, historical or living, and claim they are evidence of our idea of enlightenment, no one can know the level of attainment, or lack thereof, for anyone other than themselves. I don't exclude the possibility that a condition, or the unconditioned, exists that may align with how some of us conceptualize "enlightenment" but I question how useful it is to objectify and grasp at such an idea as an objective or support. In the Bön dzogchen teachings, enlightenment is considered a dissolution of body, speech, and mind into the 5 elemental lights. How useful is it for me to focus on dissolving into light? So far for me, not very. While it is good to have some idea of the big picture relating to my spiritual practice, I find it far more supportive to look at my own personal condition and how that is affected by my choices and practices on a day to day basis. Whatever "enlightenment" may be, I do not believe that anyone or any tradition has the key, has cheat codes, or a monopoly anymore than I believe that any one of the ~ 3,000 religions of the world have had the one precise and correct concept of "god" and how to approach and commune with Her. Consequently, while teachers, teachings, and transmissions may be helpful for many, they are not exclusive, only supportive. If we choose to follow a particular tradition, I do think a personal relationship with someone experienced in the paradigm and methods is better than trying to figure it out on our own through books. We each need to find our own path in this life and I think it is useful to keep an open mind and heart and to begin to trust in the subtle inner knowledge that only comes to light when we are still, quiet, and open enough. 2 3 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Cobie Posted March 23 (edited) 2 hours ago, steve said: … Enlightenment does not exist outside of the mind. … (in the mind) it’s mental Spoiler mental - INFORMAL•BRITISH, mad; insane Edited March 23 by Cobie 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nungali Posted March 23 On 3/22/2024 at 10:25 AM, liminal_luke said: What does that mean? Google suggests waste of time but that doesn´t sound right. I´m going with "who´d of thought." Please enlighten. If he does .... then we have TWO enlightened people on daobums 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
