Is enlightenment possible without the transmission from a lineage?

[idiot_stimpy]

I was reading recently whereby someone stated it was impossible to gain enlightenment without transmission from a lineage. 

 

I also saw the below posted on a Facebook group.

 

 

Is it possible to awaken without transmission? Can you wake up by reading the cheat codes in a book as opposed to learning them from a living teacher?

 

There is also the possibility of unseen help from forces that are not of this realm. I'm in two minds about the answer to this question, some perspective would be appreciated.

 

 

Quote

Dzogrim or the completion phase can be compared to hugging or uniting ourselves with the Buddha form. The full mixing of powerful light energy and one’s own energy form imbues the meditator with the enlightened qualities of the Buddha aspect and one is filled with blessing. When the term dissolving phase is used it can be understood to be where we dissolve the barrier or distance between us and the enlightened qualities of the lama or Buddha aspect, here one simply feels inseparable from the teacher and all beings. One no longer is looking into the mirror of mind, we are the mirror, reflecting our own enlightened qualities. Perfection phase refers to the total understanding or the absolute realization of Mahamudra the highest teachings in Vajrayana Buddhism. This is a CLEAR experience of mind unadulterated by the veils of our disturbing emotions and basic ignorance. All three are Dzogrim. Dzogrim and Laktong often share the same place and time in most meditations but as Laktong is the insight the “ah ha” moment or the connection to one’s deepest awareness, beyond the normal understanding. Dzogrim clearly points to a pristine unadulterated experience of the LUMINANCE of mind. This CLEAR LIGHT, when seen from an outside perspective but still within the meditative experience, is the mechanism with which mind shines on the form and sound realms in order so that we may perceive them. This responsive outward shining of consciousness is what we are mentally reproducing in the Khyrem part of the meditation. In its very essence, we are the CLEAR LIGHT when there is no longer any distance or barrier between us and our experience and when we have total unity within our experience, sounds perfect doesn’t it?

 

https://quantumawareness.net/kyerim-and-dzogrim/

 

Edited March 21 by idiot_stimpy

[Nungali]

15 minutes ago, idiot_stimpy said:

....

There is also the possibility of unseen help from forces that are not of this realm. I'm in two minds about the answer to this question, some perspective would be appreciated.

 

 

That used to be a 'given'  - as well as  for a lineage ,  for an individual ; 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tutelary_deity

 

and also  ;

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yidam

 

( Note : " ...  realization of their own innate enlightened nature ...  "

 

 

.

 

Edited March 21 by Nungali

[Neirong]

2 hours ago, idiot_stimpy said:

Is it possible to awaken without transmission? Can you wake up by reading the cheat codes in a book as opposed to learning them from a living teacher?

It is possible to become a renowned professor worldwide, cited for his scientific research and works.
Without ever going to school or university or belonging to any academic society?
 

Transmissions are just a way the schooling process functions in esoteric circles. It is still similar in the academic background; you will learn much faster and more in-depth if your source knows what he is talking about and not just reading/citing the book. The problem with esoteric knowledge is that it cannot be written or explained in human words. We may use the same word, but it could have 100s different meanings. To embrace real meaning, you need direct experience or transmission from a living teacher.

 

2 hours ago, idiot_stimpy said:

There is also the possibility of unseen help from forces that are not of this realm.

Help from other realms is possible, but what is more likely and possible is abuse and manipulation. People seeking "free cheese" or asking for help end up being victims of malicious beings. Some of those use inherent character flaws of a person, desire to feel important, valuable, special, powerful etc., telling all kinds of lies.

It is actually surprising how naive and easy going can people get when dealing with things from other worlds.

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

3 hours ago, idiot_stimpy said:

Can you wake up by reading the cheat codes in a book as opposed to learning them from a living teacher?

The easiest way to find the answer to this question is to look at the people on this site who claim to have achieved many things without having a teacher and only learning from books.

 

Ironically they also like to teach others

[SirPalomides]

5 hours ago, -ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ- said:

The easiest way to find the answer to this question is to look at the people on this site who claim to have achieved many things without having a teacher and only learning from books.

 

Ironically they also like to teach others

 

Sure. And then one turns to the various "enlightened" lineage holders, and the institutions built around them, and the results are hardly more impressive. 

[stirling]

11 hours ago, idiot_stimpy said:

 

 

 

It really helps to the pursuit of enlightenment have some exposure to teachings of someone realized in a non-dual tradition, written or spoken, and the stated intention to become enlightened. Stating your intention can be as simple and taking a deep breath and allowing the mind to go quiet and asking earnestly for help (depending on your motivation) in the pursuit of understanding the reality of how things are, or in helping with the relief of your suffering in the world, or some other reason. Even better to muster some compassion to help other sentient beings, but this is hard for most people. 

 

As for finding a teacher, enlightened beings are available almost everywhere. I am aware of 3 in my little town of 10k people. Any decent sized meditation center will probably have at least one, with some exceptions. Get out and meet some teachers and TELL them what you want to do. The more open and genuine you are when meeting them, the better. Most teachers will MAKE space for a student who is truly motivated. 

 

Quote

Is it possible to awaken without transmission? Can you wake up by reading the cheat codes in a book as opposed to learning them from a living teacher?

 

My current tradition is Zen. There are stories about people hearing a pebble hit a clay pot and becoming enlightened. There are NO cheat codes, and nobody really enlightens themselves - enlightenment happens by accident, but practice CAN make you accident prone. In the Mahayana Buddhist tradition we assume that all beings are ALREADY enlightened, and might simply need a nudge to realize it.

 

Quote

There is also the possibility of unseen help from forces that are not of this realm. I'm in two minds about the answer to this question, some perspective would be appreciated.

 

The interconnected fabric of the "world" we live in is CONSTANTLY supplying us with situations that offer the opportunity for dropping obscurations and becoming enlightened. Help is actually always available if you ask for it, and avail yourself of what is given. The more you use, the more you get. Meditation practice naturally stirs up and brings the material you need forward. It still requires your hard work to see where you are stuck. A good teacher will show a student how to work with their life situations and transform them into experiences of dharma, rather than just becoming more mired in the delusions of the mind we typically tell ourselves about them. 

[Taoist Texts]

12 hours ago, idiot_stimpy said:

I was reading recently whereby someone stated it was impossible to gain enlightenment without transmission from a lineage. 

whats an "enlightenment"?

what is that "an enlightened lineage-ist" can do that an ordinary person can not?

9 hours ago, Neirong said:

It is actually surprising how naive and easy going can people get when dealing with things from other worlds.

i totally agree, so much so that sometimes they believe the voices in their heads are real "things from other worlds." its kinda sad actually.

9 hours ago, -ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ- said:

without having a teacher and only learning from books. Ironically they also like to teach others

no, no we dont teach "enlightenment", its a made up word devoid of meaning. we teach proven reality

Edited March 21 by Taoist Texts

[silent thunder]

I suspect what folks mean by enlightenment is what to me reflects our natural essence devoid of overlays, illusion, interpretation, assumption and projection.  Our true nature.

 

Impossible to know what folks really imply by the concept without being in their mind with them so in the realm of words it's all interpretive and intuiting on the part of the listener/reader.

 

It seems equally impossible to know whether or not a lineage or any member of it is enlightened either; and when we claim another is enlightened or not, we present ourself as a qualified observer and arbiter capable of assessing such.

 

I am grateful for each of my teachers, both the great and the janky.  They all have provided grist for the mill of my process.

 

As for transmission.  Nature on the whole is the transmitter od the All in All.  No thing is a seperate function.  Organisms comprise the environment.

 

It all arises tzujan.

It is all 'of a thing'.

 

[Maddie]

The real question is enlightenment by who's definition. 

[dwai]

Everyone is already enlightened, only not realized it yet.  

[Apech]

1 hour ago, Maddie said:

The real question is enlightenment by who's definition. 

Mine.

 

 

and if you want to be included it will cost you plenty.

Edited March 21 by Apech

[old3bob]

2 hours ago, silent thunder said:

I suspect what folks mean by enlightenment is what to me reflects our natural essence devoid of overlays, illusion, interpretation, assumption and projection.  Our true nature.

 

Impossible to know what folks really imply by the concept without being in their mind with them so in the realm of words it's all interpretive and intuiting on the part of the listener/reader.

 

It seems equally impossible to know whether or not a lineage or any member of it is enlightened either; and when we claim another is enlightened or not, we present ourself as a qualified observer and arbiter capable of assessing such.

 

I am grateful for each of my teachers, both the great and the janky.  They all have provided grist for the mill of my process.

 

As for transmission.  Nature on the whole is the transmitter od the All in All.  No thing is a seperate function.  Organisms comprise the environment.

 

It all arises tzujan.

It is all 'of a thing'.

 

 

well said,  I'd comment on this paragraph,  "It seems equally impossible to know whether or not a lineage or any member of it is enlightened either; and when we claim another is enlightened or not, we present ourself as a qualified observer and arbiter capable of assessing such" 

 

I'd say it is possible but not by "normal" means with or per the problems you mention, but by esoteric/mystical means,  for the Self knows the Self by the Self which may sound like circular mumbo jumbo but it is not...  (and such being intimate would not be made into a public spectacle)

Edited March 21 by old3bob

[old3bob]

14 hours ago, idiot_stimpy said:

I was reading recently whereby someone stated it was impossible to gain enlightenment without transmission from a lineage. 

 

I also saw the below posted on a Facebook group.

 

 

Is it possible to awaken without transmission? Can you wake up by reading the cheat codes in a book as opposed to learning them from a living teacher?

 

There is also the possibility of unseen help from forces that are not of this realm. I'm in two minds about the answer to this question, some perspective would be appreciated.

 

 

 consider substituting the somewhat mechanical sounding word "transmission" with Grace and try going from there...

Edited March 21 by old3bob

[blue eyed snake]

1 hour ago, Apech said:

Mine.

 

 

and if you want to be included it will cost you plenty.

 

to be paid in catnip

 

[old3bob]

so we can say cats have Buddha nature or Taoist nature....

[liminal_luke]

4 hours ago, stirling said:

 

 Stating your intention can be as simple and taking a deep breath and allowing the mind to go quiet and asking earnestly for help (depending on your motivation) in the pursuit of understanding the reality of how things are, or in helping with the relief of your suffering in the world, or some other reason. 

 

 Help is actually always available if you ask for it, and avail yourself of what is given. 

 

stirling,

 

I´d love to hear more about this if you´re willing.  To me it sounds like prayer, simply asking the universe for what you want.  Is this what you meant?  I´ve never prayed regularly but I suspect this kind of thing is both effective and underutilized.  Do you recommend people start an actual formal practice of prayer?  Or just work asking for help or stating intention in on the fly during the day?  Seems to me this could be a whole topic -- or class/book .  Would love to hear stories of how prayer fits into people's lives.  

[Sahaja]

Perhaps the probability of attaining enlightenment is near zero when we have an intent to achieve it. Perhaps the probability of reaching enlightenment is near zero when we don’t have something/someone outside of ourselves pointing out when our intent to achieve it arises. Perhaps the probability of reaching enlightenment is near zero when we don’t have a useful method to help us reach our potential. Perhaps the probability of reaching enlightenment is near zero when we believe the chosen method and  helper is more important than the qualities inherent in the first statement. 

 

as much as it can be depressing to see so many people searching and not finding, the existence of the energy driving this search to me is quite a hopeful sign as it seems stronger and more resilient than both logic and intent. 

 

 

 

[stirling]

1 hour ago, liminal_luke said:

stirling,

 

I´d love to hear more about this if you´re willing.  To me it sounds like prayer, simply asking the universe for what you want.  Is this what you meant?  I´ve never prayed regularly but I suspect this kind of thing is both effective and underutilized.  Do you recommend people start an actual formal practice of prayer?  Or just work asking for help or stating intention in on the fly during the day?  Seems to me this could be a whole topic -- or class/book .  Would love to hear stories of how prayer fits into people's lives.  

 

Hi Luke!

 

I honestly think of this more like surrender. You have to be open to admitting that you are lost and that you need help. Works best if you are truly out of ideas and give up. Sincerity and genuine heartfelt attitude matters greatly. Asking for something specific like a particular amount of money, or particular life experience to turn out in a way you think is favorable is unlikely to work out, IMHO. The more your request is of benefit to all sentient beings the better, such as heartfelt entreaties to remove delusions, etc. 

 

I wouldn't use it so much as a regular thing, but more like an occasional direct help-line sort of scenario... OR a place to begin when you have been "lost". I have read before that the Buddha Amitahba is known to always be listening for this sort of entreaty... one could repeat his name a few times before asking for help, for example. I have personally had some correlation with asking for help and major insight breakthroughs, and know others who have had help in various ways.

 

My suggest is that anyone intending to do this have a meditation practice (open awareness/dzogchen/zazen) where the mind becomes still for at least a few seconds at a time. Asking in stillness would be ideal.

[Apech]

6 hours ago, stirling said:

 

 

As for finding a teacher, enlightened beings are available almost everywhere. I am aware of 3 in my little town of 10k people. Any decent sized meditation center will probably have at least one, with some exceptions. Get out and meet some teachers and TELL them what you want to do. The more open and genuine you are when meeting them, the better. Most teachers will MAKE space for a student who is truly motivated. 

 

What kind of shangri-la do you live in?  I have met two people in my life who I thought might be 'enlightened' and I am not sure about one and the other is only a kind of work in progress yet impressive kind.  I have never met anyone in a meditation centre who is anywhere near basic realisation never mind enlightened.

 

Perhaps we have divergent ideas about what this means - but your idea that is common 'almost everywhere' is bizarre.

 

Sorry but this is my experience and I find your assertions unbelievable.

 

 

[Apech]

18 hours ago, idiot_stimpy said:

I was reading recently whereby someone stated it was impossible to gain enlightenment without transmission from a lineage. 

 

Is it possible to awaken without transmission? Can you wake up by reading the cheat codes in a book as opposed to learning them from a living teacher?

 

There is also the possibility of unseen help from forces that are not of this realm. I'm in two minds about the answer to this question, some perspective would be appreciated.

 

 

 

 

Certain systems lay great importance on transmission and empowerment.  For instance you can't really practice vajrayana without empowerment - and to study texts you need the 'lung' reading.  This is how they work.  But then you have to ask what is meant by 'work' and why the emphasis is there in the first place.  

 

This does not mean however that it is impossible without a transmission or teacher - just that you would have to do a different system and practice self empowerment or self-initiation (which is taught by some).  Having a teacher and so on makes things easier - but to what end?  Perhaps the result is not as impressive as with the self taught?  

 

If you accept that we exist in an infinite field of consciousness or energy then you have to accept that countless types of beings exist - some beyond the realms of our understanding (since the human perspective is necessarily narrow).  Entities exist which can and have helped practitioners in different systems - but also there are myriad harmful entities and so on - so its not an area to be entered into lightly. 

 

 

 

[stirling]

21 minutes ago, Apech said:

What kind of shangri-la do you live in?  I have met two people in my life who I thought might be 'enlightened' and I am not sure about one and the other is only a kind of work in progress yet impressive kind.  I have never met anyone in a meditation centre who is anywhere near basic realisation never mind enlightened.

 

Perhaps we have divergent ideas about what this means - but your idea that is common 'almost everywhere' is bizarre.

 

Sorry but this is my experience and I find your assertions unbelievable.

 

I live in a Pure Land, of course!  It is a small town in the Pacific Northwest that just happens to have a lot of retired former Shuryu Suzuki and Rinzai Zen teachers, as well as a well-know Zen translator and author or two. 

 

Let's do definitions: By enlightened, I mean an Arhat. Specifically, complete realization of no-self in the Buddhist parlance.

 

Most of the Buddhist meditation centers I have been affiliated with had at least one, some had more. Locations include San Francisco Zen Center, Hokoji Zen Center, Jikoji Zen Center, Land of Medicine Buddha, Pema Osel Ling, and Tashi Choling. 

 

I find YOUR assertions unbelievable... how about that!

Edited March 21 by stirling

[stirling]

5 minutes ago, Apech said:

If you accept that we exist in an infinite field of consciousness or energy then you have to accept that countless types of beings exist - some beyond the realms of our understanding (since the human perspective is necessarily narrow).  Entities exist which can and have helped practitioners in different systems - but also there are myriad harmful entities and so on - so its not an area to be entered into lightly. 

 

This is absolutely my experience, except the part about "harmful entities". In my opinion, though they might appear fearsome, they aren't harmful... quite the opposite, IMO. They are kind, showing us our fear, attachment, and aversion.

 

Follow on question related to your previous post: If the very fabric of everything is itself enlightened, what makes you think that entities that represent that understanding in human form are so rare?

[Apech]

10 minutes ago, stirling said:

 

I live in a Pure Land, of course!  It is a small town in the Pacific Northwest that just happens to have a lot of retired former Shuryu Suzuki and Rinzai Zen teachers, as well as a well-know Zen translator and author or two. 

 

Let's do definitions: By enlightened, I mean an Arhat. Specifically, complete realization of no-self in the Buddhist parlance.

 

Most of the Buddhist meditation centers I have been affiliated with had at least one, some had more. Locations include San Francisco Zen Center, Hokoji Zen Center, Jikoji Zen Center, Land of Medicine Buddha, Pema Osel Ling, and Tashi Choling. 

 

I find YOUR assertions unbelievable... how about that!

 

 

I don't mind if you find what I say unbelievable that's ok.  I think you should check out some of these arhats to see how arhat they really are though.

 

... and is that really enlightenment? as in awakened as a Buddha? Presumably not.

 

[Apech]

6 minutes ago, stirling said:

 

This is absolutely my experience, except the part about "harmful entities". In my opinion, though they might appear fearsome, they aren't harmful... quite the opposite, IMO. They are kind, showing us our fear, attachment, and aversion.

 

Follow on question related to your previous post: If the very fabric of everything is itself enlightened, what makes you think that entities that represent that understanding in human form are so rare?

 

My sweet summer child ... be careful out there won't you.

 

 

[liminal_luke]

I reckon there are a few enlightened beings presently active on the board.  One likely enlightened being @deci belle was kicked out several years back for bad behavior, but hey, nobody´s perfect.

Edited March 21 by liminal_luke