Why am I not Enlightened?

[silent thunder]

3 minutes ago, Tommy said:

Yhis is why I ask why am I not enlightened?

Who is it who asks this?

[Tommy]

45 minutes ago, silent thunder said:

Yho is it who asks this?

The person whose thoughts bubbled up and wondered, "This is why I ask why am I not enlightened?". There is no mystery here. And nothing so enticing as to draw my mind to one focus. I am like everyone else, sleep walking thru life and having a good time.

 

At one time, I asked a person if they would like to escape birth, death and being reborn again into suffering. He said, "He wants to do it all over again. Why stop?". Then, I thought that everyone thinks they want one thing. But is that just is what the propaganda wants us to believe? Does one just eat one meal for the rest of their lives? We dance this dance and we dance again.

[old3bob]

it is not that the human ego/mind becomes enlightened per-se, it is that the Self understands that it is not the human ego or vehicle it was identified with, yet it can still use such as an inter-face with the "world"... so for an eternal or timeless moment(s) Self remembers Self beyond regular memory and is un-stuck or no longer stuck in identification as a particular someone in time and space!     (although an echo of that in the memory of a human being can point  (so to speak) yet that pointer is not the Self since regular memory is  an aspect of the human mind which can not contain or circumscribe the Free Self.

Edited April 9 by old3bob

[silent thunder]

4 hours ago, Tommy said:

We dance this dance and we dance again.

I hear you.

 

But who is dancing?

[dwai]

4 hours ago, old3bob said:

it is not that the human ego/mind becomes enlightened per-se, it is that the Self understands that it is not the human ego or vehicle it was identified with, yet it can still use such as an inface with the "world"... so for an eternal or timeless moment(s) Self remembers Self beyond regular memory and is un-stuck or no longer stuck in identification as a particular someone in time and space!     (although an echo of that in the memory of a human being can point  (so to speak) yet that pointer is not the Self since regular memory is  an aspect of the human mind which can not contain or circumscribe the Free Self.

Ignorance is in the mind, enlightenment is also in the mind. The Self was, is, and will forever be free. 

[old3bob]

the cosmic dancer, (Lord Nataraja) both sub-atomically and across all galaxies.... 

 

Edited April 9 by old3bob

[old3bob]

8 hours ago, dwai said:

Ignorance is in the mind, enlightenment is also in the mind. The Self was, is, and will forever be free. 

 

 "Mind" per many of Hinduisms revealed teachings does not and can not contain the Self.... for instance and as found in the Chandogya Upanishad and others;  although and granted pure mind  (as a THING) aligns with and serves the Self.  

[old3bob]

14 hours ago, Tommy said:

The person whose thoughts bubbled up and wondered, "This is why I ask why am I not enlightened?". There is no mystery here. And nothing so enticing as to draw my mind to one focus. I am like everyone else, sleep walking thru life and having a good time.

 

At one time, I asked a person if they would like to escape birth, death and being reborn again into suffering. He said, "He wants to do it all over again. Why stop?". Then, I thought that everyone thinks they want one thing. But is that just is what the propaganda wants us to believe? Does one just eat one meal for the rest of their lives? We dance this dance and we dance again.

 

after countless experiences but such still not being enough - what can satisfy beyond all measure? 

[johndoe2012]

On 7.4.2024 at 3:32 AM, manitou said:

 

 

I don't think it means this.  Any more than we can recall the past with 100% accuracy.  If you're speaking of predicting the future, there is no future.  It is now.  We're watching it unfold now.  

 

I like this one better, more accurate description of what is happening. 

 

The reason no one can predict what is happening, is because what is taking place is a dance of probabilities.

[Tommy]

34 minutes ago, old3bob said:

 

after countless experiences but such still not being enough - what can satisfy beyond all measure? 

I guess that the answer to that question would reside with the person asking the question. Everyone eats. But not everyone eats the same thing. A man can love a woman but not all men can love the same woman.

[old3bob]

1 hour ago, Tommy said:

I guess that the answer to that question would reside with the person asking the question. Everyone eats. But not everyone eats the same thing. A man can love a woman but not all men can love the same woman.

 

I'd say that any man or woman could be with ten thousand partners 10 thousand times or eat ten thousand variations of food ten thousand times, all of which would pass away and not be enough to satisfy the soul in the end. 

Edited April 9 by old3bob

[dwai]

2 hours ago, old3bob said:

 

 "Mind" per many of Hinduisms revealed teachings does not and can not contain the Self.... for instance and as found in the Chandogya Upanishad and others;  although and granted pure mind  (as a THING) aligns with and serves the Self.  

the mind is not the Self. The Self is not contained in anything, neither space nor time, and certainly not the mind. The Self “contains” everything, in the same way as a TV screen contains images. Everything is an appearance in the Self (pure consciousness). 
 

When we say “ignorance is in the mind”, it means the mind, which is reflected consciousness, assumes it is an independent entity to which the world exists - and it affixes labels and ownership (ego) on the things in the world. This ignorance is what prevents the mind from recognizing itself as an appearance in the Self. Truth is that it is nothing apart from the Self, ignorance is that mind doesn’t realize/know/recognize this. 
 

When we say “enlightenment is in the mind”, it means since the mind is deluded about itself, correct knowledge will enlighten it as to its true nature - aka The Self. 

 

 

[old3bob]

2 hours ago, dwai said:

the mind is not the Self. The Self is not contained in anything, neither space nor time, and certainly not the mind. The Self “contains” everything, in the same way as a TV screen contains images. Everything is an appearance in the Self (pure consciousness). 
 

When we say “ignorance is in the mind”, it means the mind, which is reflected consciousness, assumes it is an independent entity to which the world exists - and it affixes labels and ownership (ego) on the things in the world. This ignorance is what prevents the mind from recognizing itself as an appearance in the Self. Truth is that it is nothing apart from the Self, ignorance is that mind doesn’t realize/know/recognize this. 
 

When we say “enlightenment is in the mind”, it means since the mind is deluded about itself, correct knowledge will enlighten it as to its true nature - aka The Self. 
 

 

The mind's true nature is a Thing whether dark or bright,  Self is beyond such categories per revealed teachings and true Guru.

[Tommy]

4 hours ago, old3bob said:

 

I'd say that any man or woman could be with ten thousand partners 10 thousand times or eat ten thousand variations of food ten thousand times, all of which would pass away and not be enough to satisfy the soul in the end. 

I said it the answer resides with the person asking the question. You have answered your own question. Personally, I doubt that I would ever be with ten thousand women. I have a wife and am satisfied with her. So, in the end, it really is the person who is asking that holds the answer. 

 

 

1 hour ago, old3bob said:

 

The mind's true nature is a Thing whether dark or bright,  Self is beyond such categories per revealed teachings and true Guru.

The mind's true nature is no-thing. You will not find it on or near the body once the life is gone. It did not arrive with life and it does not leave when life leaves. But, one will not find it if life does not exist (Ooops). Of course, you could say life is an illusion. But, then whose illusion must it be? And what is real beyond what one believes? And Self? It does not exist according to the Buddha.

 

Note: These talks can go round and round. I believe this is why Buddha did not like discussing thing like this.

Edited April 9 by Tommy

[dwai]

1 hour ago, old3bob said:

 

The mind's true nature is a Thing whether dark or bright,  Self is beyond such categories per revealed teachings and true Guru.

There is no THING apart from the Self. 

[old3bob]

51 minutes ago, dwai said:

There is no THING apart from the Self. 

 

The great Tao is in (so to speak) all things but is not a thing, for things including the One are born/derived from the Great Tao,  if you will some correlation of that can be found in Hinduism.

Edited April 9 by old3bob

[old3bob]

To me the Buddha (among founders of other ways) sometimes said seemingly conflicting things,  for instance see the saying below which does not actually deny a Self, (capitiol S) a Self which is not to be confused with a compounded self (which to me is a misunderstanding in much of orthodox Buddhism) 

 

“There is, Oh Monks, a not-born, a not-become, a not-made, a not-compounded. Monks, if that unborn, not-become, not-made, not-compounded were not, there would be no escape from this here that is born, become, made and compounded.”

— Buddha

[Gerard]

On 9/4/2024 at 4:48 AM, Tommy said:

 This is why I ask why am I not enlightened?

Irrelevant.

 

Finish all your created at once lifetimes and GAME OVER. How many? As many as you did with the initial *Big Bang (all souls/minds' efforts to create reality). It coukd be 201, 250, 310, who knows. 

 

"The Big Bang was the moment 13.8 billion years ago when the universe began as a tiny, dense, fireball that exploded. Most astronomers use the Big Bang theory to explain how the universe began. But *what caused this explosion in the first place is still a mystery." 

*Refer to the first paragraph.
 

Time is still irrelevant as it's a mind construction to asign a date to an specific event from the space-time continuum. Outside that, it no longer exists.

 

 

 

 

[Jadespear]

...I don't like the word "enlightenment".  No one can agree on what it actually means, beyond some type of actual knowledge or realization.  I think knowledge is a much better word.  Philosophically I suppose at a certain level "knowledge" would have to be surpassed by experience, and in due course would give way to an "enlightened state of being" - as in literally imbibed with light.  Such a state seems to be one of common goals amongst eastern religions.  Purifying the astral body by means of the actual light of ourselves in methodical ways... high level practices such as dzogchen practices and taoist yoga transform oneself  in this regard as far as I can understand them, back to the source (light). 

 

...big question I have, is why do this at all?  It's very hard for me to accept as fact that all of us are required or obligated in some way as guided by some definite and absolute destiny beyond ourselves to undertake such practices.  

...I could be very wrong of course, it's just that there are many ways back to walk back to where you came from...

 

Some circles don't believe this to the extent that others do...the spiritual journey continues on in the afterlife and is much easier because we don't have physicality to work through.  

[Tommy]

2 hours ago, Gerard said:

Irrelevant.

 

"The Big Bang was the moment 13.8 billion years ago when the universe began as a tiny, dense, fireball that exploded. Most astronomers use the Big Bang theory to explain how the universe began. But *what caused this explosion in the first place is still a mystery." 

*Refer to the first paragraph.
 

Time is still irrelevant as it's a mind construction to asign a date to an specific event from the space-time continuum. Outside that, it no longer exists.

 

 

 

 

Irrelevant. 

 

The Universe is bigger than the last Bbang. There is more to the universe than can be seen with light. What caused the last Bbang? The infinite warping of time and space. What exist beyond is what came before. The Bbang did not cover the whole universe. It only covered our space of the universe. 13.8 billion light years across.

 

Sorry, time and space are just aspects of each other. Just like energy and matter are in an equivalent equation. E=m(c squared). The missing factor is the speed of light. Travel at the speed of light and time stands still. Distance becomes meaningless. Motion while traveling at the speed of light is impossible. 

 

Time is a function of space. Space is defined by the matter in it. Matter is just energy. Energy gives rise to motion. Motion is time and space.

 

One can not know the speed and vector of a particle if one knows its position.  Observing a particle affects its properties. Double slit experiment tells us so. Consciousness matters and affects it to the point of illusion.

 

Yes, now I am just rambling on because I can. Haha. 

[silent thunder]

Time does not exist.  It is a human function of memory and comparison.

 

All is unfolding perpetually now.  There is no past or future. 

 

Memory of the past occurs now.  Fantasizing about the future occurs now.  It has never been not now.  Time is the illusory human experience of reconciling memory with the ever shifting unfolding of the co-arising aggregates.

 

It's how we compartmentalize and rationalize what lies beyond the ken of our apparatus' ability to process.

 

Rest as awareness and be what you are, as you are.  Awareness is,  the rest is story time and interpretation.

Edited April 10 by silent thunder
Grammar Goblins

[Sir Darius the Clairvoyent]

And when the night is cloudy there is still a light that shines on me 
Shinin' until tomorrow, let it be 
I wake up to the sound of music, Mother Mary comes to me 
Speaking words of wisdom, let it be

There will be an answer, let it be…

 

Edited April 10 by NaturaNaturans

[dwai]

1 hour ago, silent thunder said:

Time does not exist.  It is a human function of memory and comparison.

 

All is unfolding perpetually now.  There is no past or future. 

 

Memory of the past occurs now.  Fantasizing about the future occurs now.  It has never been not now.  Time is the illusory human experience of reconciling memory with the ever shifting unfolding of the co-arising aggregates.

 

It's how we compartmentalize and rationalize what lies beyond the ken of our apparatus' ability to process.

 

Rest as awareness and be what you are, as you are.  Awareness is,  the rest is story time and interpretation.

How serendipitous. I was recently pondering about Time - 

 

 What is time? When we say we can “observe” time change, Is it really the case? Can we observe time or we infer time by observing phenomena? Is the phenomenon of rotation of the earth around its axis the same as time? Is the revolution of the earth around the sun also the same as time? Time to me seems to be like an “āvařaňa” (a veil) that obscures and obfuscates “the reality” by the way of changes. We presume/impute its existence by observing changes in phenomena.

In that sense, time seems more like māyā imho. It is a veil - it neither exists nor does it not exist - or it is anirvachaniya. When we peer through the changes to find the changeless, is it real? And yet we know that the changeless is unaffected by it, but still even those who have Brahma sakshåtkāra cannot deny it relatively speaking.

[dwai]

12 hours ago, Tommy said:

Motion is time and space.

One could say that Motion is a consequence of change, and change is the interplay of yin and yang. 

[old3bob]

2 hours ago, silent thunder said:

Time does not exist.  It is a human function of memory and comparison.

 

All is unfolding perpetually now.  There is no past or future. 

 

Memory of the past occurs now.  Fantasizing about the future occurs now.  It has never been not now.  Time is the illusory human experience of reconciling memory with the ever shifting unfolding of the co-arising aggregates.

 

It's how we compartmentalize and rationalize what lies beyond the ken of our apparatus' ability to process.

 

Rest as awareness and be what you are, as you are.  Awareness is,  the rest is story time and interpretation.

 

there is a purpose to evolution regardless if some deny it....