Letting Go of Good and Bad

[silent thunder]

I worked very hard and managed to become an uncommon schmuck.

[Cobie]

4 hours ago, old3bob said:

… saying there is no difference between good and evil is espousing a dangerous quasi-intellectual reality...

Exactly. Enough said.

 

 

Edited March 26 by Cobie

[liminal_luke]

Several Bums have brought up the subject of evil and serious crime, serial killers and whatnot. I think it´s important to note that it´s possible to give up judgments about good and bad while maintaining firm boundaries.  As a society we have a right, even a duty, to do what we can to keep ourselves safe.  To my mind, this means locking up people who would otherwise be a danger to the public.  Opinions about appropriate judicial action vary, but I think that even the most hardnosed law-and-order types can remain judgement-free on a personal level.

Edited March 26 by liminal_luke

[blue eyed snake]

3 hours ago, steve said:

 

 

I think Luke’s experience and direction of growth are related to wisdom, in particular the wisdom of equanimity and mirror-like wisdom. This can be a very elusive and challenging idea to the mind and is an area that often leads to frustration and disagreement. During such teachings it’s very common for people to bring up the most extreme examples to test the hypothesis. I think it is helpful to recognize this subject matter as occupying the boundary between the mind which judges and the mind’s nature, which has no argument with whatever arises (mirror-like wisdom). The nature of mind does not discriminate between murderer and saint, it is beyond good and evil such that both are a part of life’s experiences. Having a full realization of these aspects of wisdom is rare and I believe Luke’s comments to be an indication of becoming a bit more familiar with inhabiting this territory.

 

ah, but it wasn't to test a hypothesis and I guess you know that.

 

Liminals OP was just right and thinking on it, both self judgment and other judgment are less pronounced with the judgement on others hobbling  behind

 

 

 

[Cobie]

@liminal_luke Making a pecking order amongst equals, I consider it bullying; so I applaud you for letting go of status based inequalities. 

 

Edited March 26 by Cobie

[Apech]

26 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

Several Bums have brought up the subject of evil and serious crime, serial killers and whatnot. I think it´s important to note that it´s possible to give up judgments about good and bad while maintaining firm boundaries.  As a society we have a right, even a duty, to do what we can to keep ourselves safe.  To my mind, this means locking up people who would otherwise be a danger to the public.  Opinions about appropriate judicial action vary, but I think that even the most hardnosed law-and-order types can remain judgement-free on a personal level.

 

[Apech]

16 hours ago, blue eyed snake said:

 

ah, but it wasn't to test a hypothesis and I guess you know that.

 

Liminals OP was just right and thinking on it, both self judgment and other judgment are less pronounced with the judgement on others hobbling  behind

 

 

 

 

'Judge not lest yea be judged', saith Santa Luka de Guadalupe.

 

I think the idea of being 'equal' is something which needs careful understanding.  In what way are we equal and in what way(s) are we different?  Is it wiser to say we are the same or to see our differences.  For if I say we are the same then will I not over look the ways in which you are unique, special and an individual.  But if I say we are different am I opening myself up to thinking either you or I to be 'better' than the other?

 

 

 

 

[blue eyed snake]

yes, the concept of equal is not easy. 

 

to me, we're all equal as a spark of the original spirit, we all have that spark, it's what makes us human. 

 

differences are developmental differences i suppose. 

 

Just as when I hold a baby, we are equal in our humanity, but unequal in development. Sometimes when I hold a baby I sense that in spiritual development I hold someone who will potentially be more spiritually developed then I will be in this life. But on the physical plane I am more developed. So I will change a diaper, warm a bottle with formula, give hugs and put the little one in a crib. 

 

we're interdependent on each other, it needs me for physical care and human care, I need it to learn spiritual lessons.

 

put simplified, when I do not care for the humans around me, I will withold spiritual lessons from myself. and vice versa.

 

and something else that pops up

when saint Luke tells us not to judge, the judging has influence on the judged. But it has even more influence on ourselves.

When judging others ( or yourself) you create stories. And these stories create the ego.

 

ah well...my brain is vague today

 

 

[liminal_luke]

3 hours ago, Apech said:

 

'Judge not lest yea be judged', saith Santa Luka de Guadalupe.

 

I think the idea of being 'equal' is something which needs careful understanding.  In what way are we equal and in what way(s) are we different?  Is it wiser to say we are the same or to see our differences.  For if I say we are the same then will I not over look the ways in which you are unique, special and an individual.  But if I say we are different am I opening myself up to thinking either you or I to be 'better' than the other?

 

 

Perhaps people mean different things by the word judgement.  If I had a question about ancient Egypt, I would ask you, Apech.  If I wanted to hire someone to make me an art mask, I would ask if silent thunder was interested.  People have different capacities and I want to retain my ability to discern and discriminate.  That kind of judgment is a good thing!  What I would like to stop doing is saying "Luke, you know squat about ancient Egypt and your art masks suck.  You must be a horrible person."

[Apech]

11 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

 

Perhaps people mean different things by the word judgement.  If I had a question about ancient Egypt, I would ask you, Apech.  If I wanted to hire someone to make me an art mask, I would ask if silent thunder was interested.  People have different capacities and I want to retain my ability to discern and discriminate.  That kind of judgment is a good thing!  What I would like to stop doing is saying "Luke, you know squat about ancient Egypt and your art masks suck.  You must be a horrible person."

 

Brother Luke, is your heart as light as a feather?

 

 

[liminal_luke]

Just now, Apech said:

 

Brother Luke, is your heart as light as a feather?

 

 

Sadly, no.  But maybe someday. 

[Apech]

7 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

 

Sadly, no.  But maybe someday. 

 

Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. 32Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? 33The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. 34Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

 

 

[blue eyed snake]

14 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

What I would like to stop doing is saying "Luke, you know squat about ancient Egypt and your art masks suck.  You must be a horrible person."

 

hm... so yes, some of us here come with all kinds of theoretical musings while you simply have a problem.

to be honest, it surprises me.

 

I do not know much about ancient Egypt either, nor from artmasks and i do not think myself less for it. But the memory of being judgmental of myself is there, the voice in my head telling me to read books about ancient Egypt, to study it deeply. To educate myself about artwork, to visit museums. There was a voice in my head that told me to do so, nagging me, making me unhappy, feeling unworthy.

 

 

 

in fact, you do not have to be great or knowledgeable of anything  to be totally alright, worthy, human.

Just to be here, on this earth and set your hands and mind to the tasks given to you, that's all.

 

we're all given different tasks. One of my tasks was caring for a child with developmental problems, i did not choose that, but it was my task nonetheless. Looking back in the relational department I now see there were several tasks i had to do.

 

pretty sure had i shirked those tasks, different ones with the same lesson hidden, had come onto my path.

 

you're so alright Luke, I've always liked you and your responses here and you've grown so much over the years.there's a reason your jokingly called saint Luke eh

 

what is it that makes your heart heavy,  your  judgement of self heavy?

You're not the one to shirk the work at hand, so were does it come from?

 

what old form is still riding you?

 

[Taomeow]

We were supposed to be equal.  I remember a taoist source (but forget which) that asserted "people of old" were much more similar to each other than they are today.  (Keep in mind that the source's "today" was taking place some 2000 years earlier than our "today.")  The analogy was given -- if you plant some seeds (forget which, let's say cabbage), under normal conditions all of them will have the same soil to germinate in, the same amount of it to spread out in, access to equal amounts of sunlight, water, and care.  After a while, they will all sprout on the same day, grow at the same rate, have the same level of health and resilience, look pretty much the same, mature at the same time, flower and bear fruit together (unless harvested, in which case they will all taste the same), and so on.  But if different parts of your plot are uneven in quality, you will find that you plant some of the same seeds in fertile black soil, some on rocky terrain, some on a sandy patch in full sun, some on a muddy one in the shade of large trees, and so on.  Try planting some seeds so close to each other that they have to compete for space.  Then try watering some but not others, overwatering still others, pulling weeds around some but not others, and so on.  You will soon see vastly different plants that do not germinate or grow simultaneously, don't mature in unison, some will shoot up and others will wilt, some will be healthy and some, sickly, the development of some will be stunted while their peers will thrive, and so on.  

 

The source asserted humans are only very different from each other for exactly the same reasons.  I'd add, thousands of reasons, thousands of factors.  Sometimes it's blatant -- you can tell how someone came to be the way they came to be -- but more often it's impossible to know.  Which nutrients were missing from that particular patch of the soil?  Which poisons present?  Who knows...  

 

 

 

        

[Apech]

18 minutes ago, Taomeow said:

We were supposed to be equal.  I remember a taoist source (but forget which) that asserted "people of old" were much more similar to each other than they are today.  (Keep in mind that the source's "today" was taking place some 2000 years earlier than our "today.")  The analogy was given -- if you plant some seeds (forget which, let's say cabbage), under normal conditions all of them will have the same soil to germinate in, the same amount of it to spread out in, access to equal amounts of sunlight, water, and care.  After a while, they will all sprout on the same day, grow at the same rate, have the same level of health and resilience, look pretty much the same, mature at the same time, flower and bear fruit together (unless harvested, in which case they will all taste the same), and so on.  But if different parts of your plot are uneven in quality, you will find that you plant some of the same seeds in fertile black soil, some on rocky terrain, some on a sandy patch in full sun, some on a muddy one in the shade of large trees, and so on.  Try planting some seeds so close to each other that they have to compete for space.  Then try watering some but not others, overwatering still others, pulling weeds around some but not others, and so on.  You will soon see vastly different plants that do not germinate or grow simultaneously, don't mature in unison, some will shoot up and others will wilt, some will be healthy and some, sickly, the development of some will be stunted while their peers will thrive, and so on.  

 

The source asserted humans are only very different from each other for exactly the same reasons.  I'd add, thousands of reasons, thousands of factors.  Sometimes it's blatant -- you can tell how someone came to be the way they came to be -- but more often it's impossible to know.  Which nutrients were missing from that particular patch of the soil?  Which poisons present?  Who knows...  

 

 

 

        

interesting!

[liminal_luke]

38 minutes ago, blue eyed snake said:

 

what old form is still riding you?

 

 

Thanks for the kind words, bes.    I don´t actually upbraid myself for not knowing about ancient Egypt, that was just an example for illustrative purposes.  But it´s true that I would like to be less judgmental of myself in other ways.  I´m not sure how to answer your question other than to say a variation of the same early childhood stuff so many of us are carrying around.  

 

Appreciating your presence...

[blue eyed snake]

2 hours ago, liminal_luke said:

 

Thanks for the kind words, bes.    I don´t actually upbraid myself for not knowing about ancient Egypt, that was just an example for illustrative purposes.  But it´s true that I would like to be less judgmental of myself in other ways.  I´m not sure how to answer your question other than to say a variation of the same early childhood stuff so many of us are carrying around.  

 

Appreciating your presence...

 

I got that but it set me to thinking, I am not even sure how that selfjudgment has lessened.

it just did, after doing some years of chigung and things. 

 

would like that to happen for you

 

and yes, its all old patterns eh

childhood stuff... I had a big fat blockage from when I was a teenager. when that was out a whole lot of things started to happen.

so, for me it was not only early childhood.

[blue eyed snake]

3 hours ago, Taomeow said:

We were supposed to be equal.  I remember a taoist source (but forget which) that asserted "people of old" were much more similar to each other than they are today.  (Keep in mind that the source's "today" was taking place some 2000 years earlier than our "today.")  The analogy was given -- if you plant some seeds (forget which, let's say cabbage), under normal conditions all of them will have the same soil to germinate in, the same amount of it to spread out in, access to equal amounts of sunlight, water, and care.  After a while, they will all sprout on the same day, grow at the same rate, have the same level of health and resilience, look pretty much the same, mature at the same time, flower and bear fruit together (unless harvested, in which case they will all taste the same), and so on.  But if different parts of your plot are uneven in quality, you will find that you plant some of the same seeds in fertile black soil, some on rocky terrain, some on a sandy patch in full sun, some on a muddy one in the shade of large trees, and so on.  Try planting some seeds so close to each other that they have to compete for space.  Then try watering some but not others, overwatering still others, pulling weeds around some but not others, and so on.  You will soon see vastly different plants that do not germinate or grow simultaneously, don't mature in unison, some will shoot up and others will wilt, some will be healthy and some, sickly, the development of some will be stunted while their peers will thrive, and so on.  

 

The source asserted humans are only very different from each other for exactly the same reasons.  I'd add, thousands of reasons, thousands of factors.  Sometimes it's blatant -- you can tell how someone came to be the way they came to be -- but more often it's impossible to know.  Which nutrients were missing from that particular patch of the soil?  Which poisons present?  Who knows...  

 

 

 

        

 

very nice metaphor

[Apech]

@Taomeow your last post brought to mind that growing up in England in the 1950's (yes I really am that old) the fruit and vegetables we could buy were all seasonal.  You could only get strawberries, cherries, bananas and so on at certain times.  Also the vegetables were very varied and mostly locally produced.  They varied in size, shape and quality.  There was still some rationing from the war and even oranges were a rarity (we had bottles of condensed orange juice).  But it was quite natural and unaffected by sprays of chemicals and wotnot.  We always hated having salad for school dinners because the lettuce invariably had bugs in it - and we got the large outer leaves which tasted bitter.  This was all made worse by the fact that I had spent some of my childhood in the USA (North Carolina and Cali.) and could remember all the tomatoes and oranges.  Anyway later, particularly in the 80's and 90's they invented large supermarket chains (replacing the green grocers and grocers I was used to) and they increasingly supplied carrots, tomatoes, apples and so on which were uniform and identical.  I don't think taste was the priority just appearance.  In fact I think they prioritised blandness  When I started to visit Portugal about 20 years ago it was a revelation because all the food was locally sourced - and I experienced again the strange sight of oddly shaped carrots and turnips.  But the taste was wonderful.  I rediscovered peaches and plums which had actual taste - in the case of ripe peaches and melons so strong and juicy it was beyond imagination.

 

I think the Dao likes variety as per the 10,000 things - if I may be so bold as to attribute like and dislike to the way.  I think that although we were once more the same as you say - the layers of difference we have accumulated over the years - the actions, interactions, combinations and permutations might actually be the point of it all.  So when we bite the apple we don't know if it is going to be joy or disappointment.  We can then rejoice in the changes.

[Mark Foote]

7 hours ago, liminal_luke said:

 

... What I would like to stop doing is saying "Luke, you know squat about ancient Egypt and your art masks suck.  You must be a horrible person."
 

Interesting.   Lately I've had some "you know squat about ancient Egypt and your art masks suck" versus "other people have comprehensive knowledge about ancient Egypt and other people have incredibly beautiful and emotive artwork", going on.

What it's really about, is the attraction I feel for what these folks have done and the repulsion I feel for my inability to do much of anything of a similarly attractive quality.  All the while ignoring something about how necessity can place my awareness, and how that placement must be free for me to be fully alive in the moment.

 

... is a tendency to attachment to be got rid of from every pleasant feeling?  Is a tendency to repugnance to be got rid of from every painful feeling?  Is a tendency to ignorance to be got rid of from every neutral feeling?

No friend Visakha...  In this case... (a person), aloof from pleasures of the senses, aloof from unskilled states of mind, enters on and abides in the first meditation, which is accompanied by initial thought and discursive thought, is born of aloofness, and is rapturous and joyful.  It is by this means that (one) gets rid of attachment, no tendency to attachment lies there.  In this case... (a person) reflects thus:  'Surely I, entering on it, will abide in that plane which the (nobles), entering on, are now abiding in.  From setting up a yearning for the incomparable Deliverances there arises, as a result of the yearning, distress; it is by this means that (one) gets rid of repugnance, no tendency to repugnance lies latent there.  In this case... (a person), by getting rid of that joy, and by getting rid of anguish, by the going down of (their) former pleasures and sorrows, enters on and abides in the fourth meditation which has neither anguish nor joy and which is entirely purified by equanimity and mindfulness.  It is by this means that (one) gets rid of ignorance, no tendency to ignorance lies latent there.

 

(MN I 303-304, PTS vol. I p 366-367, "The Miscellany (Lesser)", attributed to the nun Dhammadinna)

 

 

The fourth concentration, wherein awareness takes place freely and action of the body follows automatically out of the location of awareness, apart from habit or volition.   

Yearning for the incomparable Deliverances, the further states, and as a result, distress.  That would be a positive, in getting rid of a repulsion from my own inabilities, I guess.  Maybe if I look to extend the mind of compassion around the world, such that I experience that excellence of the heart's release that is the first of the incomparable Deliverances "the infinity of space"!

Runaway black hole, drawing stars behind it:

 

 

Edited March 28 by Mark Foote

[liminal_luke]

Seems to me there´s a subtlety to the idea of letting go of judgments that I have yet to communicate effectively.  I´ll try again.  To me, letting go of good and bad does not mean letting go of discernment.  It doesn´t mean pretending we´re all the same.  It doesn´t mean being soft on crime and doesn´t lead to moral relativism. We can let go of good and bad without turning our brains off.

 

In Breema bodywork there´s a principle called "no extra."  Practitioners are supposed to touch their clients (and live their lives) with no extra.  What is extra?  To my mind extra is the judgment, it´s the machination of our monkey minds, always busy, always adding too.  It´s a precious thing to be touched by someone without an agenda, with exquisite neutrality, alive to what is and nothing else.

Edited March 28 by liminal_luke

[Taomeow]

17 hours ago, Apech said:

@Taomeow your last post brought to mind that growing up in England in the 1950's (yes I really am that old) the fruit and vegetables we could buy were all seasonal.  You could only get strawberries, cherries, bananas and so on at certain times.  Also the vegetables were very varied and mostly locally produced.  They varied in size, shape and quality.  There was still some rationing from the war and even oranges were a rarity (we had bottles of condensed orange juice).  But it was quite natural and unaffected by sprays of chemicals and wotnot.  We always hated having salad for school dinners because the lettuce invariably had bugs in it - and we got the large outer leaves which tasted bitter.  This was all made worse by the fact that I had spent some of my childhood in the USA (North Carolina and Cali.) and could remember all the tomatoes and oranges.  Anyway later, particularly in the 80's and 90's they invented large supermarket chains (replacing the green grocers and grocers I was used to) and they increasingly supplied carrots, tomatoes, apples and so on which were uniform and identical.  I don't think taste was the priority just appearance.  In fact I think they prioritised blandness  When I started to visit Portugal about 20 years ago it was a revelation because all the food was locally sourced - and I experienced again the strange sight of oddly shaped carrots and turnips.  But the taste was wonderful.  I rediscovered peaches and plums which had actual taste - in the case of ripe peaches and melons so strong and juicy it was beyond imagination.

 

I think the Dao likes variety as per the 10,000 things - if I may be so bold as to attribute like and dislike to the way.  I think that although we were once more the same as you say - the layers of difference we have accumulated over the years - the actions, interactions, combinations and permutations might actually be the point of it all.  So when we bite the apple we don't know if it is going to be joy or disappointment.  We can then rejoice in the changes.

 

"(Qi) blowing differently on 10,000 things so each can be itself." -- Zhuangzi

 

The artificially achieved commercial uniformity of fruits and the natural variety within a particular kind are as different as a uniformed and identically disciplined army is different from a group of friends brought together by similarities of interests, experiences and abilities.  Tao likes variety, it's true, but it also likes boundaries -- the devil is in the details.  Natural biological boundaries make sense on every level -- if you plant cabbages, you don't want to be surprised by harvesting cacti.  If a couple decides to have kids, they expect (and are likely to prefer) human kids, not baby elephants, not even kittens, cute as they may be. 

 

Changes and differences within sensible boundaries are part of normal on the Way.  Neither excessive erratic changes nor arbitrarily imposed boundaries are.  Yes, even erratic changes are part of it, but there's a boundary for the extent and amount of those as well, and if this boundary is violated and erratic unnatural changes become the "new normal," this is a sign of a departure from the Way.  Ditto the excessive imposition of unnatural boundaries.

 

In the "old country" they painted the bottom part of the fruit trees with lime -- instead of doing nothing about the bugs or using pesticides.  This imposed a sensible nonlethal boundary on many kinds of critters that would otherwise damage the crop and surprise you with a worm inside an apple.  Not that it never happened, but normally you wouldn't get a worm in more than one apple out of a dozen, and it was easy to spot -- you just examined the surface for the hole and if you saw one, you cut the apple open and kicked the squatter out.

 

 

         

[liminal_luke]

1 minute ago, Taomeow said:

 

In the "old country" they painted the bottom part of the fruit trees with lime -- instead of doing nothing about the bugs or using pesticides.  

 

 

         

 

I´m not from any Old Country, unless Placerville, CA in the 80s counts (and maybe it does!) but I remember painting our fruit trees like that.

[Apech]

26 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

Seems to me there´s a subtlety to the idea of letting go of judgments that I have yet to communicate effectively.  I´ll try again.  To me, letting go of good and bad, does not mean letting go of discernment.  It doesn´t mean pretending we´re all the same.  It doesn´t mean being soft on crime and doesn´t lead to moral relativism. We can let go of good and bad without turning our brains off.

 

In Breema bodywork there´s a principle called "no extra."  Practitioners are supposed to touch their clients (and live their lives) with no extra.  What is extra?  To my mind extra is the judgment, it´s the machination of our monkey minds, always busy, always adding too.  It´s a precious thing to be touched by someone without an agenda, with exquisite neutrality, alive to what is and nothing else.

you are wise brother Luke - I shall remember that although I charge 20 dollars an hour there’ll be no extra for the touching.

[Apech]

12 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

 

I´m not from any Old Country, unless Placerville, CA in the 80s counts (and maybe it does!) but I remember painting our fruit trees like that.

me too - my peach tree had a sort of ecosystem involving ants and greenfly which I solved in more or less this way.