The healing Tao. The healing Tao?

[oattao]

On 4/3/2024 at 4:58 PM, Nungali said:

 

 

Hmmm .... I was  pansexual

 

 

 

But now I might become a tantara tarantula

 

 

 

The upper photo is my picture after leaving Chiang Mai...!

[Maddie]

17 hours ago, oattao said:

Beyond the joke, I mean that it really activates and potentiates sexual energy and its disposition for transmutation. What happens afterwards: how it affects your psyche, and it works in your energy system and you manage to `deploy' this energy is another matter. I am a musician and, traditionally, sexuality and creativity are profoundly connected. For me, 'flowing' in the sense of music bu most importantly in the sense of Life, is essential. As Friederich Chopin said, "my music is written with the vitality of semen". I suppose after sometime, Chia`s method will get the Jing circulating more powerfully. I was curios to know if his method is actually derived from ancient texts and practices, as he claims it is. Only praxis will tell if it bears any fruits. It remains to be seen for me...

 

I never new that about Chopin, interesting. As a Buddhist my take on it was quite different though.

[oatisnottao]

On 2. 4. 2024 at 5:36 PM, oattao said:

 

My experience in this system has been confusing. The theory is kind of clear -as Chia`s system is very simple, in my opinion, bur ...

Hi oattao. I just noticed you used a very similar nick here on the forum. Funny as hell. 

Welcome here. 

My first touch of some tao practice has been with a blue and purple book of Mantak chia ten years ago. I did not practice at all, had many interest in the time. And was also confused by initial complexity. 

 

Now years after I actually gave way more focus on inner smile, earthing by normal method from blue book and if I need more then clearly a superior deep earth pulsing. 

 

I am doing the fundamentals first and doing testicular breathing. 

I am conserving energy too. 

 

I have zero issues. Beside having read over 10 books, watched many videos from M. Winn and read hundreds of his pages and also bought one course. Then I also watched many M. Chia videos (with courses, not public ones). Also watching other taoists. 

 

Constantly researching and practicing. I feel great, have no issues. I am minimaly focused on sexual energy, no obsession. Just peace, growth and improving health. 

 

I have yet to find out why M Chia is strangely not liked here. 

So far I think he is complex and people often disinterpret his work. Also they write how you need a teacher - thats what Chia writes in the initial structure of absolutely every book. So far I also did not find so well documented practices as a whole works of Mantak Chia. I also know that many ppl did not like his milion dollar point. But again - chia does not recommend to stay with it forever, he just tells you do it maximaly this amount of time per week and do this after that to unblock the stuck energy. Feels to me Mr. Chia is a mountian and many are stuck at various levels trying to scream at mountain how wrong the mountain is. Meanwhile I am not doing milliar dollar method and I am also not doing sexual practices without first doing the fundamentals. My understanding is that it is often good to stick with fundamentals, do Microcosmic orbit, inner smile, Iron shirt, Five elements I. and then finaly go and experiment with hot sexual energy. Also the first khan & li . I would say is probably also very beneficial. 

 

When going forward and learning stuff beyong microcosmic I would say using more than just books makes a lot of sense, better to visit a teacher with good reputation. However, from my observation M. Winn is quite costly to fly from europe and pay US housing for a neccessary time and I observed he has his own methods, possibly better refined but different and that needs more time investment to absorb complexity. 

 

 

Also there is a complexity absorbtion problem. It takes time to adapt your energy body and starting with sexuality does not make sense from this point of view too. There is often talked about 100 days for every level of any practice. Unless one has prepared body by similar practice as some yoga types I can fully agree because otherwise one has wrong idea about what one is doing and it is neccessary to come back to the instructions and mantain FULL comprehension. 

 

To conclude this - when things break. One has to first learn good grounding like Deep Earth Pulsing . then one can dislodge any tipe of overheating or ill chi and bring the balance back. This is probably a strongest point of M. Winn works on me

Edited August 23 by oatisnottao

[oattao]

On 8/23/2024 at 9:11 AM, oatisnottao said:

I have yet to find out why M Chia is strangely not liked here.

I believe it is because he seems to be more interested in his institution than in his own spiritual development. All of us who have met him can see some of that in his demeanor. I believe this appreciation is a mixture of two things: first and foremost, his courses are filled with "fillers". The older he gets, the more evident. This might be great for those seeking a father figure cloaked in a guru, but the substance of his teaching is very scant. When you boil down the actual teachings, they are very simple, almost childish. This is not depreciatory at all. but for us westerners, it can feel like a bit of a scam. And this touches the second point: his teachings are experiential. "Once you practice, you get it"he says all the time. And it is true. This a cultural difference: induction vrs deduction. One 'gets" the overarching theory of his system after practicing. and this can look very bad at the early stages, as his delivery is confusing, messy, and kind of scammy. He is not a great transmitter, at all, but he lived the destiny of being the first famous asian who was able to translate to the West the teachings in a massive scale. That, alone, honors him tremendously. 

[Apech]

It is because over the years there have been a steady stream of people who seem to have screwed themselves up trying to practice his stuff.  And asking for advice on how to recover.  It may be that they mostly do this from books and get it wrong but generally the impression I’ve gained is that his stuff is unhealthy.

[ChiDragon]

On 4/7/2024 at 3:30 PM, oattao said:

I was curios to know if his method is actually derived from ancient texts and practices, as he claims it is.

It came from a fictional story like Martial arts novels, 武俠小說(wǔxiá xiǎoshuō).

FYI Any excessive sexual practice is not healthy for the reproductive system. I would stay away from it! Other wise, it will ruin your life completely. There were many members came to TDB asking for help. In case you run into trouble, just go practice Qigong or Taiji to recover your body back to normalcy. However, it may take some time to reach the goal of practice.

This is the Yang style Taiji part of the 108 form.

 

Edited August 30 by ChiDragon

[Neirong]

7 hours ago, oattao said:

I believe it is because he seems to be more interested in his institution than in his own spiritual development.

The expectations of many, who come across Mantak in the past, was to meet an awakened sage, who hones his skills, evolves himself constantly, opens new doors/gains wisdom. Early on it was even proposed that Mantak is close to immortality and non-aging body. That kind of figure can LEAD people forward. Write New books, develop new methods.

 

But when you meet him in real life, you face a reactionary NPC celebrity, who is primarily interested in Fame and Money, and is mostly occupied with mundane activities like fighting with his ex-students or trying to milk more money.

He has little development of his upper chakras, closed third eye, only good rooting/grounding and lots of visits to medical clinic to upkeep his hair color and put make up on to look healthier for the picture.

 

7 hours ago, oattao said:

he lived the destiny of being the first famous asian who was able to translate to the West

 

He won a lucky ticket in life. Being among the first to put his name down, he basically inherited the Empire, the resort, and the Tao Garden. Those things came on a silver platter. There were other people who came with him, but he deleted their names.

 

I don't feel like he properly used the resources that were given to him in this life. It is really such a waste.

 

On 23.08.2024 at 4:11 PM, oatisnottao said:

I also know that many ppl did not like his milion dollar point. But again - chia does not recommend to stay with it forever, he just tells you do it maximaly this amount of time per week and do this after that to unblock the stuck energy. Feels to me Mr. Chia is a mountian and many are stuck at various levels trying to scream at mountain how wrong the mountain is.

You are dealing with the Image of the person created by followers. It is like meeting a celebrity from Holywood and believing he is Iron Man or the Holy Knight.

 

The actual human behind the name is something entirely different; Mantak's teachings can be summarised to "clench your ass and smile."

Wherever you go for beginner or advanced seminars or read all the books, buy individual lessons, there is no depth in it. If there were this whole thing, it would smell and look different, and after 50+ years, you would see a lot of attained masters and powerful beings who evolved through this system. But there is none.

That said when people bash Mantak's teachings, they often propose alternatives that are ten times worse.

Modern daoism trend is all about having a massive beer belly (Chi Belly, Lower Dantian Belly), smoking cigars, drinking whiskey, being entirely bald, talking non-stop for hours, writing narcissistic IG posts and spending your life running a schizoteric cult.

[oattao]

On 8/30/2024 at 6:34 PM, Neirong said:

You are dealing with the Image of the person created by followers

This is so true. But therein lies the question. Because so many of the NeoTantra- Taoist-sexuality figures of our time claim to have been initiated by him and are instructors  and disciples in his system. This is the case for most non-traditionalist of the West, the ones we layman looked for when starting in the path of Spirituality. This bears the question: then the system works in spite of the teacher? All that many people cannot be wrong, or are they all scammers and the scam continues generation past generation?Because this is not dogma, it should be verifiable,. At least that is the promise. Because there are many, many instructors that tribute to his teachings in several countries, languages and cultures. 

 

I spent 14 days at the Tao Garden and you could feel the collective energy of the devotees that is so evident when people regard a place as sacred. But the guru did not feel at all like a special person. He was more, as you describe him, as a facade of enlightenment. and the figure holding everything together. But also, he has a sense of innocence, a lack of shrewdness (he, clearly is not a strategist or an accomplished conman, or a great orator, intellectual, or teacher -some of this characteristics you could clearly see in people like Osho, or close to him, Micheal Wimm-). As you said, won a lucky ticket, it seems, and was in the middle of things at the right moment. This simplicity, surprisingly, gives one peace of mind. It seems he is, in many ways, authentic with his transmission, even though the substance of his teachings is small and simple -so much so that I had to complement those days with books  and talks by Alan Watts to understand the broader philosophy and implications of the sexual subset of Taoism. 

 

And yes, he openly states to be interested in money. But that may be part of a cultural tendency particular to many Asian countries, a tendency to adore wealth that we in the West don't find tasteful in public discourse, although we viciously enact de facto in our polity. He is also getting old and starts to loose his precision (if he ever had it in past years. I don´t know), so he might be more exposed.

[Neirong]

3 hours ago, oattao said:

This bears the question: then the system works in spite of the teacher? All that many people cannot be wrong, or are they all scammers and the scam continues generation past generation?Because this is not dogma, it should be verifiable,. At least that is the promise. Because there are many, many instructors that tribute to his teachings in several countries, languages and cultures. 

 

It is a prevalent logical misconception that "Everyone cannot be wrong." Someone must be correct and have all the right answers.
The first place to turn to is someone famous, reputable, and has a massive following. Surely, all these people cannot make mistakes? If people follow this practice en masse, it is a worthy teaching.
 

Cults are built on that very principle. Instead of following and seeking truth, people seek an authority figure who will be certain of what "the truth is" and will take care of it for them and would usually acknowledge their naive ideas about cultivation/reality. Esoteric forums and communities rapidly degrade into a circle-jerking activity based on praising each other Ego by agreeing with the terms and words/concepts that form together a collective psychosis or an illusion.
 

It does not even matter what those terms and concepts are; they could be about people having no Ego, loving-kindness, having an immortal soul, or any other idea.
 

The results of Daoist practices are verifiable; the tangible result is death, and everyone dies the same. There is not any known case of a Daoist teacher out there who attained immortality in any shape or form. At least we have not seen any of such teachers/students growing.
 

This flaw goes further down the rabbit hole. Some people cannot even accept the possibility of themselves being wrong and mistaken. Any kind of information that would dismantle their entrenched views and beliefs apart is taken like a malicious lie and gets immediately rejected. People who do this get labeled or attacked (ad hominem).
 

For a delusional being, protecting and reinforcing his delusions is one of the core priorities and requires constant effort. The more time and effort they invest into walking this path, the harder it is to turn back.
 

I am just giving that as an example, but there are millions of those cases. Surely, a lot to pick up if you are trying to discern information.
 

3 hours ago, oattao said:

I spent 14 days at the Tao Garden and you could feel the collective energy of the devotees that is so evident when people regard a place as sacred.

 

Tao Garden was built in an array formation, it is naturally a place of power that has a particular quality of energy associated with Daoism Egregore and teachings flowing through it. It is same thing as if you would come to a church, or a temple of any religion, where people come and pray regularly.

The whole idea of having a place with proper conditions for cultivators to gather and train regularly is good. The management of the TG and the commercial policy trying to milk/target wealthy tourists, while selling junk food, worthless massages and trash tier seminars is terrible. Basically, you have the original idea, and the realization that fall into two completely opposite sides.

[Dainin]

On 4/5/2024 at 3:40 PM, Elysium said:

What does this even mean?

 

 

[thelerner]

This site was a break off from the HealingTao USA.  That site had broken down and while we're independent for a few years most of the people on the Bums were old HT members, thus well conversed w/ Mantak Chia and Michael Winn.  

 

Back then we'd have Chi/genital weightlifters debates, jade egg commentaries,  million dollar point debates, many on the pros and cons of HT version of MCO.  Over the years they faded.  Practices like genital weightlifting have clear potential danger, much more so without a live experienced teacher and triply so if one has a Western mindset of more is better.  

 

To some extent the same could be said about a couple of Chia's practice.  Some were helped, some were burned.  The ones who could get the most live instruction tended to do much better.  

 

A decade or two ago I took a couple Michael Winn seminars (up to Fusion) and enjoyed them but was never hardcore.  I still practice his Gi Gong basics and his version of Pan Gu.  As a blast from the past my wife recently signed us up for community center Tai Chi, which is Healing Tao based.  Which makes me happy.  As I'm assuming it'll be more flow oriented versus precision based which plays to my bias's. 

[oattao]

16 hours ago, Neirong said:

Cults are built on that very principle. Instead of following and seeking truth, people seek an authority figure who will be certain of what "the truth is" and will take care of it for them and would usually acknowledge their naive ideas about cultivation/reality. Esoteric forums and communities rapidly degrade into a circle-jerking activity based on praising each other Ego by agreeing with the terms and words/concepts that form together a collective psychosis or an illusion.

This is exactly what intrigues me. This really touches core for me. The fact that so many people sware by his teachings, and others (you can pick up the teacher or philosophy here, including this one -respectfully and with admiration, must be said-), others don't, is a testament to this problem. More precisely: a conundrum. And it is logical to conclude that because the system works for some people, thus keeps spreading generationally and culturally. That is what we assume. The Big question is (Big question), if things in ultimate reality are to be discovered (as Truth, what the Greeks called Aleteia) or things are to be created (Constructed). This would mean that a collective psicosis (whatever level of involvement you want, be it a whole Culture, a discipline, a Society, a Religion, a Standard model, a psychotic break) can be reinforced enough to produce reality at the level of experience.  If this is the case, how far can you go? Did people who have articulated over centuries disciplines, systems and philosophies discover things, or the discovery is a process of creation by disciplined belief? This seems to be at the core of Chia`s system, and, if you want to push it, most esoteric systems. 

 

[forestofclarity]

On 9/7/2024 at 9:20 PM, Neirong said:

Any kind of information that would dismantle their entrenched views and beliefs apart is taken like a malicious lie and gets immediately rejected.

 

I think that is fairly typical for how the acquired mind works (spoiler alert: including my own). 

 

FWIW, I agree with many things in the above posts, but I don't think the view is quite complete in my limited view. How does one measure the impact of a being's actions? Unless we have expanded to a relative point of omniscience, with the ability to discern the flow of a being's karma, it is speculation.

 

Chia is may be junk food, like box wine perhaps, visiting harm on some or even many. But for others he may be a gateway to something greater, like the start of a deep appreciation for fine wine. Or for others, an opportunity to develop discrimination, which may lead to a better path. Maybe in this life, or the next or the next. And at the end of the day, if Chia exchanged his precious life for an "empire of dirt," he will certainly reap the fruits of those decisions. This is not suggested to say that one of us is right and others are wrong, but more to call into question whether any of us really knows. 

 

If something had no place in the totality, would it even arise? 

 

On 9/7/2024 at 9:20 PM, Neirong said:

everyone dies the same

 

I don't think that is true at all. Everyone may die, but not everyone dies the same way. 

 

 

[Thrice Daily]

I first got into Mantak Chia in 2006 or so when I was 24. Iron Shirt, The Inner Smile, 6 sounds and micro cosmic orbit. Plus the sexual practices. The 6 sounds was incredibly powerful and knocked me off balance in a way while also helping me deal with a lot of past issues but it was tough going. 

 

The sexual practices, very easy to get carried away and difficult to control myself and just work with cooler energies rather than chase orgasm. 

 

I did go to a workshop and found it deeply beneficial to spend some time with Chris North and Anamarta. This meeting was humbling and grounding for me. 

 

That being said, it's understandable how many people have messed themselves up with these practices. There is so much to take stock off and trying to learn from books can become quite forceful and not gentle with intent. Although of course Mantak stresses the importance of being gentle, it's taken me till my 40's before I really can work with naturalness well enough to benefit from his practices and use them well.

In my 20's I could spend hours in certain practices. So much time spent and deep work done sure but very unsettling and not really consistent practice could build. It was too powerful and affecting to be consistent, does that make sense?

 

now I practice basic iron shirt, micro cosmic orbit , inner smile and six sounds but wu wei leads the practice and an hour a day tends to do, it's not super deep but it's super consistent and there are incremental gains in aspects of the practice each day. 

 

I also now follow the advice of weightlifting and do a heavy full body workout 3 times per week. I think this is very beneficial while following Mantak, as he suggests in Iron Shirt 1 I think.. 

 

It's a shame he got a bad name, I don't see him like a Taoist Sage / spiritual guide, I don't see him in visions or altered states. But his books are pretty common sensical and surly point to sound Taoist logic. 

 

It's a shame to read them as being childish. Chi Self Massage for example is a wonderful ( perhaps simple book ). But when committed to memory it serves as a faithful companion in your health life whether you use the chi element or not. Full respect to him for that one from me. 

 

If you have naturalness and good connection with intuition or wu wei . Not too much ego or force. If you can listen to your inner sense and have good consistency in the rest of your life, enough to practice I think this can be a good path. 

 

The question is can you face yourself and keep going in spite of what you see. Me in my 20's that was hard work. I earned my salt though and after spending time in Mahayana Buddhism and Vippasana I can practice Mantak Chia with respectful ease, life is Good and better with practices. 

 

Good luck whatever you choose and wherever you may be...

 

Stick with the basics and always be prepared to return to the uncarved block.

 

 

 

 

Edited Tuesday at 07:47 PM by Thrice Daily
Late night brain burp

[oatisnottao]

On 9. 9. 2024 at 9:55 PM, Thrice Daily said:

I first got into Mantak Chia in 2006 or so when I was 24. Iron Shirt, The Inner Smile, 6 sounds and micro cosmic orbit. Plus the sexual practices. The 6 sounds was incredibly powerful and knocked me off balance in a way while also helping me deal with a lot of past issues but it was tough going. 

 

...

 

 

Funny thing is that from various records even the microcosmic orbit was thought of to be quite advanced practice. 

M. Chia and various other ppl. (now I am talking about traditional or classical (the preffered one) chinese medicine have so much foundational materials as well that are really great to start with - talking about posture, food you eat and straying away from the extremes. these things are so much better than crazies (without any prior knowledge, practice and cultural roots) going after sexual practices possibly Multiorgasmic men (which I dont like, the Winn cooperation produced book is so much better and still has its issues) and being after sex ignoring important details and fucking up big. 

 

 

Edited Tuesday at 11:05 PM by oatisnottao

[Thrice Daily]

10 hours ago, oatisnottao said:

 these things are so much better than crazies (without any prior knowledge, practice and cultural roots) going after sexual practices possibly Multiorgasmic men (which I dont like, the Winn cooperation produced book is so much better and still has its issues) and being after sex ignoring important details and fucking up big. 

The sexual practices I find are not so problematic if I do iron shirt and six sounds afterwards. it tends to smooth things out naturally and I don't get energy stuck in head of heart.

 

it feels important to move the body and go for a walk outside at least. The glute exercises and pc muscle exercises are very beneficial to me also, as well as breathing in earth energy and connecting more with legs than top half. (I did the opposite in my 20s to my detriment)

 

I like to keep the energy work as secondary these days and much more stay with body physically in practice instead of drifting into other states and neglecting physical strength. Much better I find. 

 

thanks for writing back to me always interested to read other points.

 

 

[oattao]

On 9/11/2024 at 3:50 AM, Thrice Daily said:

The sexual practices I

So, you have been able to move sexual energy around the microcosmc orbit? What about multiple orgasms and the activation of upper body chakras within sexual transmutation energies? (the boiling of the water and the use of steam, if you recall). 

 

The healing sounds, many instructors said, were for evening practices geared towards rest and sleep.

 

And the main practice, Qi weightlifting? Has it been beneficial to you? Problematic?