Ren acupoints, Daoist Breathing, and Belly-Dancing

[johndoe2012]

20 hours ago, dwai said:

P.S. another interesting thing to do is compress the ball while hovering over the dantiens or specific points on the meridians, and then let it expand back to previous size. The compression followed by the subsequent expansion creates a bellows like effect and activates/clears those points. 

 

That is more or less how Gift of The Tao II from Stillness Movement works except that the expansion is by opening hands up to Heaven. More effective I think plus the qi from Heaven is nice 😊

[Trunk]

a little "qi sphere basics" essay based off of Sifu Matsuo's Kwan Yin Magnetic Qigong.

lotta links!

 

[forestofclarity]

9 hours ago, dwai said:

My experiences point to something beyond the physical.

 

I agree. However, in my experience, it is usually taught without the physical parts. I think the physicalists go too far in denying the non-physical elements, but the vast majority of non-physicalists don't teach the physical parts at all (leading me to believe they never learned it or are withholding it). However, I would say 99% of all recorded qi type tricks are reducible physically (in part because the non-physical stuff wouldn't be apparent on film I would think, and must be experienced personally). 

 

9 hours ago, dwai said:

It’s like how we need some kind of mantra or ritual to facilitate a spiritual practice

 

I agree that this applies broadly. Here is my current, no doubt flawed and limited understanding: 

 

Practices can be understood as a matter of substance (what we're working with) and function (the method used). The substances are typically the three treasures, but can be pre- or post-heaven, and post-heaven can vary from more subtle to more gross. The functions are basically those with more you wei or more wu wei. Nearly everyone works with post-heaven treasures of some level, because it is difficult to fully penetrate to the essence. 

 

Toward one end, we have those who work with the grossest treasures and specific methods. These are the physicalists--- working primarily with the body--- modern Westerners for instance. Then we have those roughly classified (again, using post-heaven terminology) as working ming to xing. These folks usually say only the method of their school works, etc. Sometimes they ignore or deny more subtle practices. This would be the guest within the guest stage, which is where most of us start.  

 

On the other end, we have people who claim to focus on more wu wei methods, and will criticize others for using you wei methods (i.e. no visualization). This is the xing to ming group. However, they also seem to be using post-heavenly treasures and you wei methods, even if less gross (attention instead of visualization, for instance). They will say that the other group is ineffective. However, to be truly effective, then one would need to at least be at the host within the guest stage, which means one has seen the nature so to speak. 

 

Both poles seem incomplete, and merely at ends of a spectrum (which is ironic given the context). Both of them can be harmful is incorrectly practiced (if one stands for long periods without proper alignment leading to bodily harm, or if one meditates improperly leading to mental illness). There is a similar pattern in Chan/Zen as well. 

 

 

[Sahaja]

My understanding of using the hands this way is that you are opening Lao gong that creates a connection between the qi field in the hand and the qi fields deep in the body that have both a physical impact in the body and an energetic one. At a physical level the tissue moves in the torso and at the energetic level channels in the torso are being worked. Can feel like electrical stimulation, magnetic stimulation, a wave or pressure. The point of this is what is happening developmentally deep in the body physically and energetically rather than what happens between the hands. You can do this in a lot of ways even just pointing your palms at your body and stretching them open will start movements inside when your body is ready. Hand mudras also can do this.  Each finger position impacts a different part inside the torso in both a physical and an energetic way that will be  physically  felt when you are ready. In all these you need to be somewhat “physically aggressive” with  your hand positions initially then later less strength is needed in the hands. Then can even move it just using your relaxed little finger.
 

One can also just soak the mind into the body and relax/release the mind and stuff also starts to happen, nothing else required. Though all this takes time and hours of dedicated practice to develop. For example in tai chi release of Jin starts as a physical release of tension at the foot later it’s just soaking the mind into the body  and releasing the mind and the Jin will physically move. Wherever you are on this spectrum there are many, many  levels you haven’t yet arrived at on the way to pure nonintentionality (wu wei) which is an extremely rare and high level state. Important point is to realize, wherever you are, there is much yet to learn so you don’t glass ceiling yourself by feeling you “finally get it”. Better to be in the “ I know I don’t know state.” 

[forestofclarity]

I don't mean to jinx it, but may I say that this has been such a nice, pragmatic discussion so far? 

[dwai]

6 hours ago, forestofemptiness said:

 

I agree. However, in my experience, it is usually taught without the physical parts. I think the physicalists go too far in denying the non-physical elements, but the vast majority of non-physicalists don't teach the physical parts at all (leading me to believe they never learned it or are withholding it). However, I would say 99% of all recorded qi type tricks are reducible physically (in part because the non-physical stuff wouldn't be apparent on film I would think, and must be experienced personally). 

yes, the energetic part is not visible to all (some can see). However if the energetics have a physical effect, then of course one can observe the physical effect. So it might seem like it is reducible to a physical “trick”, but there are energetics at play. For instance, if we “bounce” someone, if we feel like we’re moving 1 lb vs 10 lbs vs 100 lbs to generate the same effect in the recipient of said bounce, then that can be an indication of how much physical force is being applied. 

6 hours ago, forestofemptiness said:

I agree that this applies broadly. Here is my current, no doubt flawed and limited understanding: 

 

Practices can be understood as a matter of substance (what we're working with) and function (the method used). The substances are typically the three treasures, but can be pre- or post-heaven, and post-heaven can vary from more subtle to more gross. The functions are basically those with more you wei or more wu wei. Nearly everyone works with post-heaven treasures of some level, because it is difficult to fully penetrate to the essence. 

 

Toward one end, we have those who work with the grossest treasures and specific methods. These are the physicalists--- working primarily with the body--- modern Westerners for instance. Then we have those roughly classified (again, using post-heaven terminology) as working ming to xing. These folks usually say only the method of their school works, etc. Sometimes they ignore or deny more subtle practices. This would be the guest within the guest stage, which is where most of us start.  

 

On the other end, we have people who claim to focus on more wu wei methods, and will criticize others for using you wei methods (i.e. no visualization). This is the xing to ming group. However, they also seem to be using post-heavenly treasures and you wei methods, even if less gross (attention instead of visualization, for instance). They will say that the other group is ineffective. However, to be truly effective, then one would need to at least be at the host within the guest stage, which means one has seen the nature so to speak. 

 

Both poles seem incomplete, and merely at ends of a spectrum (which is ironic given the context). Both of them can be harmful is incorrectly practiced (if one stands for long periods without proper alignment leading to bodily harm, or if one meditates improperly leading to mental illness). There is a similar pattern in Chan/Zen as well. 

 

 

Maybe they are not incomplete but different approaches required for different types of people? 
 

Towards that end, I found that Ming is more appropriate for modern practitioners as preparatory steps for Xing work. Before working with the mind, it needs to be stilled and settled. For the mind to be stilled and settled; the body needs to be stable. This is true for raja yoga practices too - asana, pranayama and then dhyana and eventually samadhi. 
 

IIRC Master Liao says that practicing Daoist systems are in cycles of 7 years. First 7, work on the body and form. Next 7, work on the qi, then subsequently work with shen. And then repeat the cycle. 

[forestofclarity]

15 hours ago, dwai said:

Maybe they are not incomplete but different approaches required for different types of people? 

 

You could say that, but there is a reason I typically don't. Many other spiritual traditions have an emphasis or focus on wisdom. However, many Daoist teachings have power teachings that aren't necessarily taught in conjunction with wisdom teachings. It seems to me that most people go to Daoist teachings (at least in the West) for health/healing or martial power, and only very few for wisdom. I've met many people who attend these teachings who enjoy real world fighting for instance. 

 

Many people do this with yoga and pranayama also. The issue is that increased power without increased wisdom seems to reinforce the acquired mind. Wisdom without power may not be as effective, but it isn't as damaging. 

 

15 hours ago, dwai said:

Towards that end, I found that Ming is more appropriate for modern practitioners as preparatory steps for Xing work.

 

That is fairly classic. The Dzogchen (and to some extent the Chan/Zen) tradition goes in the opposite direction. As the world degenerates, more traditional techniques stop working, so methods must be simpler and more direct. This is one reason why teachings which would typically be whispered from mouth to ear through a tube are now widely available. However, it can be too direct and often requires a lot of foundational work anyway. And of course it requires a teacher who understands what is being pointed out, which according to various commentaries is always "as rare as daytime stars." 

 

It is really difficult in my experience to find a capable Daoist spiritual teacher. I suppose they say it is a matter of destiny. 

 

21 hours ago, Sahaja said:

Important point is to realize, wherever you are, there is much yet to learn so you don’t glass ceiling yourself by feeling you “finally get it”. Better to be in the “ I know I don’t know state.” 

 

YES

Edited August 2, 2024 by forestofemptiness

[dwai]

30 minutes ago, forestofemptiness said:

 

You could say that, but there is a reason I typically don't. Many other spiritual traditions have an emphasis or focus on wisdom. However, many Daoist teachings have power teachings that aren't necessarily taught in conjunction with wisdom teachings. It seems to me that most people go to Daoist teachings (at least in the West) for health/healing or martial power, and only very few for wisdom. I've met many people who attend these teachings who enjoy real world fighting for instance. 

 

Many people do this with yoga and pranayama also. The issue is that increased power without increased wisdom seems to reinforce the acquired mind. Wisdom without power may not be as effective, but it isn't as damaging. 

Yes, for sure—power might be the initial attraction, but if connected to a good lineage and teacher, it should transform into a spiritual quest. YMMV, depending on how much prior work has already been done—some are beginners, and others have done the work in previous lifetimes as well. 

30 minutes ago, forestofemptiness said:

 

 

That is fairly classic. The Dzogchen (and to some extent the Chan/Zen) tradition goes in the opposite direction. As the world degenerates, more traditional techniques stop working, so methods must be simpler and more direct. This is one reason why teachings which would typically be whispered from mouth to ear through a tube are now widely available. However, it can be too direct and often requires a lot of foundational work anyway. And of course it requires a teacher who understands what is being pointed out, which according to various commentaries is always "as rare as daytime stars." 

There is a specific technical term used in Vedanta - Adhikari-bheda (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adhikari-bheda). It has to do with what kind of practitioner is eligible for the wisdom teachings. I know it is kind of diluted in the modern day, and I vacillate on how applicable it is. To go with that is the distinction made in terms of intellect. One type of intellect is called the sthula buddhi - gross intelligence - the kind that might make one successful in the transactional world - high IQ, etc. Then there is the suksha buddhi - subtle intelligence - which is needed to study the wisdom traditions. 

 

Individual teachers need to evaluate individual students to determine eligibility. 

 

In my own personal experience, I have always been blessed with sthula buddhi (has to do with upbringing, etc) - was fairly competent in academics, engineering, etc. However, initially, I could not even understand what the Upanishads, etc., were pointing to - luckily, I had enough respect for the tradition to not dismiss the teachings as nonsense and instinctively knew that I was not ready to process those teachings. After a few more years of practice (yoga, Taichi, Daoist meditations), I was able to somewhat understand what was being taught - but it was still not clear to me.  It was not until I had done sufficient preparatory work and after being initiated by my current teacher that everything fell into place in terms of sukshma buddhi - and things became apparent to me in terms of understanding. 

 

After that, it was more of listening, contemplation, and meditation until the realization sparked one day. 

30 minutes ago, forestofemptiness said:

 

It is really difficult in my experience to find a capable Daoist spiritual teacher. I suppose they say it is a matter of destiny. 

I would tend to agree. Only someone who has realized themselves can point to the truth (or if someone has the ability to transmit the lineage spiritually). But, realization is entirely on the individual student. 

30 minutes ago, forestofemptiness said:

 

YES

 

[Trunk]

as far as vertical aspects

wisdom ~ love ~ power

and layers

physical ~ subtle ~ transparent

 

imho, the guiding aesthetics end up being
well blended

well rounded

toward balance and harmony as basis for development

”every inch of the central channel (sushumna)”

 

different schools, different teachers

have their areas of expertise (and gaps, usually).

a well rounded internal arts *culture*

has a variety of mature authentic schools, teachers

[Giles]

56 minutes ago, Trunk said:

as far as vertical aspects

wisdom ~ love ~ power

and layers

physical ~ subtle ~ transparent

 

imho, the guiding aesthetics end up being
well blended

well rounded

toward balance and harmony as basis for development

”every inch of the central channel (sushumna)”

 

different schools, different teachers

have their areas of expertise (and gaps, usually).

a well rounded internal arts *culture*

has a variety of mature authentic schools, teachers

 

 

Sushumna:

 

 

❤️😁

 

[johndoe2012]

Direct pointing for anyone who would find it useful 

 

 

Then we proceed with the Ming work 😅

 

Good luck everyone 😊

[Trunk]

~ a year later, and I'm still finding the original premise (orig post link below) of this thread to be fresh and progressive in my practices, and consideration of principles.

 

Much to say and pressed for time ... considering, reviewing, the abdomen in Daoist terms ...

- sinew changing

- opening the channels and tissues

- ren and ren acupoints

- vertabral marrow washing

 

Basically just going in from the front, kind of dan tien breathing, all up & down major pts of the abdomen (pubic bone to solar plexus).  

 

 

 

Layers: 

All in concert with breathing & stabilized attention.

1. More physical.

2. More energetic.

3. Core and vertebral.

 

1. More physical.

Touching, pressing with finger to sensitize musculature at a pt. 

It's also self-acupressure.

Touching w/ finger tip is such a simple technique, and so effective.  One of those simple things that, duh!, I should'a could'a done from the very beginning.

 

2. More Energetic.

Gentler touch, or slightly not-touching, = more energetic in through the ren pt.

 

3. Vertebral joints.

stabalized attn, space and a *little* traction to *gently* open vertebral joints. 

 

I find that this approach emphasizes the bulky front "marrow" of the spine.  "Opening the joints" of the spine in this way naturally sucks up jing into the vertebral space and triggers a pulsing through the vertabral chain of marrow & rubbery pads.  Naturally, effortlessly, refining jing, healing the roots of the nerve plexuses ... right at the spine.

 

Still in an editing phase with these pictures and ideas, any kicking around, discussing, experimenting feedback appreciated.

 

Trunk

 

 

Edited February 27 by Trunk

[Trunk]

Context, on my previous post above.

a few quick thoughts

 

My experience, and I think that it's typical of others, coming up through popular presentations of the orbit, etc. is ...

1. Some exposure to the m.orbit, often by shooting energy up the back.  It's easy, and people tend to learn it first.

2. Later a revision of that approach by emphasizing the establishment of the lower dan tien.

 

Both of those approaches (while important pieces) typically leave gaps:

- the abdominal work in general gets put off until later (when often trouble has accumulated)

- Ren gets neglected, overall (until later).  Ren acupoints tend to not get activated.

- the sinewy aspects of the spine are emphasized (the back) and the bone-marrow-alternating-with-rubbery-discs stack (front) aspect of the spine is de-emphasized.  There's a semi-missed marrow washing opportunity there.  

While the idea of "jing up the spine" is nothing new, taking a detailed look at spinal anatomy clarifies the denser aspects of this rich organic chain as structurally apt for processing the pulsing of jing.  (Not merely whooshing it around).

 

the Yin of the Spine

    

 

There are deep practices, in various traditions, to address the abdomen deeply.  Worth while exploring - but they also tend to be rather difficult, long term projects to really get.

 

I found that the methods that I presented above (prev. post) give a few very accessible tips, that anyone can easily implement. 

Simple easy tools.

Edited February 28 by Trunk

[Trunk]

On 2/23/2025 at 8:31 AM, Trunk said:

3. stabalized attn, space and a *little* traction to *gently* open vertebral joints. 

 

 

I find that this approach emphasizes the bulky front "marrow" of the spine.  "Opening the joints" of the spine in this way naturally sucks up jing into the vertebral space and triggers a pulsing through the vertabral chain of marrow & rubbery pads.  Naturally, effortlessly, refining jing, healing the roots of the nerve plexuses ... right at the spine.

 

re: this marrow-washing the spine part (of course there’s a million spine exercises, why is this one cool?) :

 

Consider that various tension & trauma can get all the way to the spine … that results in some chronic ‘holding’ right at the spine, at the root of a nerve plexus .. and how that inhibits healing, perpetuates tension/trauma from the core outward.  I’d say, also, that the vulnerable abdomen is a very layered protection system, and there’s a lot of survival strategy holding trauma at various layers, so that it doesn’t go further.

Ok, bottom line: spine holding tension.

Goal: getting the vertebral joint to let go of that tension and to gently open (just a little). 

 

This method avoids recruiting surrounding musculature.

 

Usually, you’re twisting and bending the spine - all cool, healthy … but part of that is that you’re employing muscular tension at *some* angle of the spine.  The alternative to this is traction, pulling vertically on the spine, and we often do it by hanging from our hands or feet and there’s stretching and it feels good … but, still, a lot of supportive surrounding musculature is recruited: The vertebra don’t fully relax and let go.

 

The trick in this method is to press down gently enough so that one vertebral joint *might* open, and it opens only with the application of basic alchemical elements: sustained focused attention and breath.

1. tiny bit of vertical traction +

2. sustained focus +

3. breathing

= provides the condition where the vertebra “feels safe” and relaxes, opens, on it’s own.  It “lets go” of that tension under safe conditions.  

(It does NOT feel like “pulled open”.)

 

ime, when this happens

- the “opening” is small … I’m saying 1-2mm guesstimate

- but it is palpable

 

The inter-vertebral joint “let’s go” of the tension, opens, and naturally sucks in essence which pulses the stack of vertebral marrow n’ bouncy pads.  It’s a marrow washing practice whose structure (the marrowy vertebral stack w/rubbery pads) naturally supports the pulsing of jing.  Naturally refines the jing, you don’t have to “do” anything once the process is triggered.  Feels good, heals the nerve plexuses starting at the roots.  

(If you have trauma stored in layers, expect that it will soothe and loosen and may be painful coming out.)

 

When this first started to happen, especially, I needed to do it before rest/sleep.  Significant spinal adjustment, delicate, just needed to be still with it.  In general, I think it’s best before bed/resting, though I do mix it up some.

 

re-emphasize to be gentle through this whole process.  You’re making adjustments right at the spine level in a open relaxed way: very vulnerable.  Don’t rough up through this process, nor use this practice as warmup for more rigorous work.  Exercise caution.

 

Trunk

Edited February 26 by Trunk

[Trunk]

Hopefully this is my last post on this, get it off my mind ...

 

REN, exploring some ideas ...

1. I'm cautious about "flowing" energy through channels.  Yeah, I do it some, but also cautious ... do I know which direction? it really goes?, or should go?  Often, "nope".  Specifically regarding ren, some Ch.medical texts say that there's a branch of ren that goes up.  (My experience is that there's flow - at least in the vicinity of ren - that goes up and down)

2. I do like activating points, deepening the alchemy that happens at a point ... and then the energy goes where ever it goes from there.

3. I do find connecting to the center to be reliably refining.

4. The "ming lines", and the general integration of front ~ back I find to be progressive.  Not merely the loop-d'-loop of the orbit.

 

Consider in regards to the above.

 

Edited February 27 by Trunk

[liminal_luke]

I´m reminded of a Chi Nei Tsang technique taught by Gilles Marin.  A bodyworker puts fingers just lightly in contact with either side of an individual vertebrae and "listens" for any movement, passively allowing the hands to follow the subtle movement of the bone.  After a minute or so, the bodyworker moves on to the next vertebrae down the line.  The effect is profoundly relaxing.

Edited February 27 by liminal_luke

[Lairg]

4 hours ago, Trunk said:

I'm cautious about "flowing" energy through channels.  Yeah, I do it some, but also cautious ... do I know which direction?

 

Usually I source energy from the heart and that provides a proper direction - for the propagation of life force in the energy body.   There are other energy sources for other functions.

 

Often I have found blockages, for example in a joint.   Blockage can be symptomatic of external interference  or unresolved internal processes.

 

Often a body pain will disappear immediately the local blockage is resolved

 

 

 

 

[oak]

On 06/04/2024 at 9:05 PM, Trunk said:

Inspired by the video below, I’ve made some effective strides on ren and the whole abdominal region.  She instructs along the line of belly dancing … I modify the breathing towards a more Daoist orientation.

 

The tip:

1. Put your finger on any acupoint (indendation) along the abdominal section of ren (below the sternum and above the pubic bone).  Whether you place your finger firmly, lightly, or not quite touching at all - will emphasize physical ~ subtle engagement (all good).

 

2. Do a slow smooth inhale ~ exhale from the center at finger-level.  Basically, doing dan tien breathing at the level of the finger.  Slowly, so that the layers of tissues gently separate during the (inhale oops!) exhale, often including a gentle tug-pull from the inside at the acupoint.  Just 1 to several breaths, then…

 

3. Next acupoint, repeat 1&2.  All up n’ down.

 

I find that this extremely simple tip:

- Helps to locate areas of the abdomen that are … unfamiliar, inarticulate, physically, and getting the sensitivity and muscular articulation online.

- extraordinarily effective in activating acupoints along ren 

- overlaps + complements other kinds of deep abdominal work

 

- Trunk

 

 

 

 

 

I found this today and this thread immediately came to mind. Enjoy 🙂

 

[Lataif]

Nice find, thanks . . .