Transgender Q&A

[Salvijus]

10 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

 I hoped that you would seriously consider my words and that your introspection would lead you to relate to our online community differently. 

I do seriously consider all comments. If I'm doing something out of line. I welcome everyone to point it out and I will reflect on it with all sincerity. 

 

I suppose it's the critism that you feel is my problem. But I don't see any criticism being made. All I did was propose a possibility that a particular behavior might not be as cute as it appears on the surface. That there might be something to look at more closely. 

 

Btw I have no judgement for people acting in unenlightened fashion. I'm myself full of shit and ego. But putting the light where another person is indulging in ego might be a very positive thing. If you take it the right way. 

 

 

Edited April 23 by Salvijus

[liminal_luke]

Just now, Salvijus said:

 But putting the light where another person is indulging in ego might be a very positive thing. 

 

 

Like you, I hoped that would be the case.  Alas, no.

[Salvijus]

7 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

 

Like you, I hoped that would be the case.  Alas, no.

Well. I thank you from the bottom of my heart that you pointed out that I was critical. I reflected on it. And I failed to see how that is true. I just don't see it. Sorry. If you wish you can help me see it and I will reflect on it again. 

Edited April 23 by Salvijus

[Salvijus]

26 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

 

Like you, I hoped that would be the case.  Alas, no.

You can point out I have 20 arms. And i'm going to reflect on it with sincerity. But it does not mean I'm going to agree with it. 

 

Similarly I'm just giving some suggestions to reflect on. I don't expect anyone to agree with me. Just look for yourself. Make your own conclusions. That's what matters. 

Edited April 23 by Salvijus

[Maddie]

1 hour ago, Salvijus said:

Yea that could be part of it. But perhaps there is something more to it. Because there are people who like what they see in the mirror and have no need to show off. Just as a comparison example. 

 

Yeah but I'm an unapologetic attention whore 

[Salvijus]

7 minutes ago, Maddie said:

 

Yeah but I'm an unapologetic attention whore 

 

Haha, now that's honesty  that's something I can bow down to lol. 

 

I'm full of shit too. Feels good to come clean sometimes. 😅

Edited April 23 by Salvijus

[blue eyed snake]

4 minutes ago, Maddie said:

 

Yeah but I'm an unapologetic attention whore 

 

totally normal behavior for young beautiful women, although i do not have any active intentions anymore, I still like looking at female beauty.

 

Just like I like looking at butterflies and the new flowers now bursting.

[Maddie]

9 minutes ago, blue eyed snake said:

 

totally normal behavior for young beautiful women, although i do not have any active intentions anymore, I still like looking at female beauty.

 

Just like I like looking at butterflies and the new flowers now bursting.

 

awww that's sweet actually :-). Also they can't shame you if you own it lol. 

[Salvijus]

3 minutes ago, Maddie said:

Also they can't shame you if you own it lol. 

Wisdom right there 

[surrogate corpse]

4 hours ago, Maddie said:

 

Definitely seems to be the case in my experience lol. Also welcome to my thread surrogate corpse. Would you care to introduce yourself here? Up to you. 😊🩷

sure! i have a proper dao-bums-relevant introduction thread in the welcome forum, so i'll do the trans-specific one here

 

i'm rose. i started transitioning in late 2021 because i thought it would impress zhuangzi. i'm only half-joking. (before 2021, i spent rather more time than the average cis boy thinking about the zhuangzi as a trans-inclusive text)

 

i do think that 無為 (wuwei) provides a good model for understanding gender. we tend to think of transition as a goal-directed set of changes away from Received Gender toward Desired Gender. but that misses its heart. Received Gender isn't something that comes "for free": it requires lots of active maintenance, both through active performance (為) and actively holding oneself back from behaving as the Desired Gender (不為). i don't think it's useful to define "woman", but if forced to, i would say: woman is what happens when i do nothing. 無為而無不為 (wuwei er wubuwei)—non-doing and non-not-doing.

[Maddie]

50 minutes ago, surrogate corpse said:

sure! i have a proper dao-bums-relevant introduction thread in the welcome forum, so i'll do the trans-specific one here

 

i'm rose. i started transitioning in late 2021 because i thought it would impress zhuangzi. i'm only half-joking. (before 2021, i spent rather more time than the average cis boy thinking about the zhuangzi as a trans-inclusive text)

 

i do think that 無為 (wuwei) provides a good model for understanding gender. we tend to think of transition as a goal-directed set of changes away from Received Gender toward Desired Gender. but that misses its heart. Received Gender isn't something that comes "for free": it requires lots of active maintenance, both through active performance (為) and actively holding oneself back from behaving as the Desired Gender (不為). i don't think it's useful to define "woman", but if forced to, i would say: woman is what happens when i do nothing. 無為而無不為 (wuwei er wubuwei)—non-doing and non-not-doing.

 

Thank you for sharing and welcome to the Dao Bums in general and to the transgendered thread specifically :-). Always nice to have another sister around. 

 

* and brother Blue Eye's ;-)

Edited April 23 by Maddie

[EFreethought]

16 hours ago, Maddie said:

 

I know I know I probably post too many selfies. I'll try to slow down LOL

 

You could request a PPD, and tell everyone that yours is not a "Personal Practice Discussion", but a "Perpetual Photo Discussion".

 

[Maddie]

1 minute ago, EFreethought said:

 

You could request a PPD, and tell everyone that yours is not a "Personal Practice Discussion", but a "Perpetual Photo Discussion".

 

 

The photos are the practice. The Tao of the selfie

[blue eyed snake]

4 hours ago, surrogate corpse said:

i don't think it's useful to define "woman", but if forced to, i would say: woman is what happens when i do nothing. 無為而無不為 (wuwei er wubuwei)—non-doing and non-not-doing.

 

excellent

[Mark Foote]

15 hours ago, Nungali said:

 

I have an anti-desire to appear in photographs    .

 

I usually use this guy instead  and claim he is me  ;

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'm completely fooled, Nungali!

 

 

[Mark Foote]

18 hours ago, Nintendao said:

  On 4/16/2024 at 3:25 PM, Maddie said:

You seem to be confusing sex and gender. 

 

This. This right here might be at the core of a majority of vexation with regards to the topic. For individuals who have not personally experienced a significant enough decoupling of the societally enforced equivalency of the two, i guess i can see how it might be inconceivable that such a thing even exists.

 

 

 

Dao Bums needs a "heart" icon.

Lacking which, I give you a quasi-mystical photo of the lake and mountain I live next to, in appreciation.

 

 

 

(photo by Stephanie Espinosa)

 

 

Edited April 23 by Mark Foote

[Mark Foote]

5 hours ago, Salvijus said:

But putting the light where another person is indulging in ego might be a very positive thing. If you take it the right way. 

 

 

I've never found that to be true.

 

 

[surrogate corpse]

for what it's worth, i'm rather in favor of confusing sex and gender, so long as you do it the right way ; )

 

biological "sex" is very complicated and very messy, subject to a massive range of variation. some sex characteristics are changeable, others are not (with current technology). none are universal among those we call "men" and those we call "women". biological sex encompasses a broad range of phenomena, sorted differently depending on particular research projects. ("sex" isn't special in this regard; biological categories are generally like this)

 

to seek to find simple "biological sex" categories that neatly sort individuals into "biological males" and "biological females" is to impose greater simplicity on the range of human variation than can actually be found. in the background of this, there always lie normative judgments—always an implicit teleology. (sometimes people will make this explicit, talking about what the body is "organized around"). indeed, the very desire to have these categories be fixed and unchangeable is already a normative judgment about category construction—a judgment that lacks biological motivation.

 

so much for the difficulties with biological sex, considered in its own right. but even supposing we find some straightforward biological characterization that sorts (the bulk of) people into two sex categories, to then put these categories to social use is to impose further normative judgments. (it is impossible, for example, to have bathrooms segregated just by biological sex, without considering gender, for the simple reason that that very act in itself has brought us into the realm of gender)

 

the sex/gender distinction can be useful, but it's risky: the more we rely on it the more we risk reifying both sides of the dichotomy, separating them in ways that ignores their IRL inseparability. there has never been "biological sex" untainted by "gender".

 

almost as if the warring states daoists were onto something with their cautions about naming and dividing...

[silent thunder]

2 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

 

 

Dao Bums needs a "heart" icon.

Lacking which, I give you a quasi-mystical photo of the lake and mountain I live next to, in appreciation.

 

 

 

(photo by Stephanie Espinosa)

 

 

  I use this in the stead of a missing heart emoji

 

that photo is absolutely stunning Mark.

Thanks for sharing!

Edited April 23 by silent thunder

[Mark Foote]

11 minutes ago, silent thunder said:

  I use this in the stead of a missing heart emoji
 

That works, although it's a tad more person to person than a heart to indicate a love of what was written.
 

Quote

 

that photo is absolutely stunning Mark.

Thanks for sharing!

 

You're so welcome!  If you're interested, there are some amazing photos of Clear Lake and Mount Konocti, here (and some duds, lots of duds, actually, but what's good is very good)--if you're not on Facebook, just click the "x" in the upper right-hand corner of the "See More on Facebook" pop-up.

 

 

Edited April 23 by Mark Foote

[silent thunder]

3 minutes ago, Mark Foote said:

That works, although it's a tad more person to person than a heart to indicate a love of what was written.

 

I love that it's person to person... thanks again mate.

[Nungali]

11 hours ago, blue eyed snake said:

I've seen that more yes.

 

at last the way you look fits with how you feel and that's reason for joy and pictures.

 

like the happiness I felt as a preschooler having told my mom that I did not want dresses anymore. After a slight hesitation she told me "yes, that's okay for me"

 

I was so happy  

 

But WHY ?????? I never got this   ( the pants for boys dresses for girls thing ) .

 

Dresses or kilts or similar ... or at least a pants with codpiece suits the male anatomy ,  pants do not !   Pants suit more the female anatomy .   I even remember it being weird , when fitted for a junior school uniform being asked if I 'dressed to the left or right ', I had no idea what that meant . Later when I understood I thought ' Why should I do either ' ?    Why do I need that seam up there in the way at all ?  It can get quiet uncomfortable .

[Nungali]

10 hours ago, liminal_luke said:

 

People give up promising dance careers and become accountants in order to win the approval of their parents.  Nobody transitions to win the approval of their parents.

 

Mine where horrified when I said I wanted to become a 'window dresser'   ( I saw a guy doing it, he made a life size 'diorama '  in a shop window , I was impressed at his style, creativity  and  harmonious use of shapes and color  ) .... parents where worried that I might have 'suspect tendencies'  and made me go to 'career  guidance '  .... over 50 years later , I  design all aspects  and build my own ' rainforest wetroom '   (wash house )  .  people are amazed  " You did that ! "   -   river rock tile floor , Imported multi shade greens  subway tile with a silver , moonstone and  mother-of-pearl accent strip ,   stone basins ,  retro fittings and switches in bake-a-light  etc etc .

 

That was probably  just one of my potential careers they steered me away from ... then went on asking and  complaining to me about what I was going to do in life as a career  !    ... no, not that , Oh no certainly not that !      No not that either .   Why dont you do something with yourself !    .

[Nungali]

8 hours ago, Maddie said:

 

Yeah but I'm an unapologetic attention whore 

 

Fair question, fair answer . 

 

[liminal_luke]

3 hours ago, surrogate corpse said:

 

to seek to find simple "biological sex" categories that neatly sort individuals into "biological males" and "biological females" is to impose greater simplicity on the range of human variation than can actually be found. 

 

Is it?  Seems to me that almost everyone from a very young age can reliably sort people into male and female groupings at sight.  There are some people of indeterminate sex, of course, but the vast majority of folks are born clearly male or female.  I realize that these categories don´t feel comfortable to some people.  Some people avail themselves of medical therapies to successfully change their outward appearance such they appear as a different sex -- and if this make them happier or relieves suffering then more power to them!  But let´s not deny the reality of the categories themselves.  Afterall, if "maleness" or "femaleness" didn´t exist there would be nothing to transition away from.

Edited April 24 by liminal_luke