Transgender Q&A

[Maddie]

I don't recall in all of those semen threads someone saying "I am a 32 year old male and I really want to retain all my semen because then I'll be able to shoot lighting out of my nostril's like Palpatine" and someone coming at them like "why do you identify with being a male? Don't you realize gender doesn't exist because something something spiritual reasons?" 

Edited May 7 by Maddie

[liminal_luke]

It´s hard to pin down the motivations of other people with any certainty.  I thought @Salvijus was hiding an antipathy toward trans people under the cover of spiritual talk, but he denies it and what do I know?  Sorry if I got you wrong Salvijus.  The topic reminds me of a conversation I had with a black friend of mine.  Greg told me that years ago he was often followed around in stores by security people and chalked this up to racism.  He supposed that I´d never been followed around like that. (I´m white.)  That´s not true though.  I remember being followed around from room to room by a shopkeeper in a gallery in Guadalajara.  She was pretending to clean and I felt like telling her to cut the act and just accompany me as I looked around.  Apparently, the whiteness of my skin didn´t put her at ease.  Who woulda thunk?

 

This is a difficult topic and I hope we can give each other more than the usual "benefit of the doubt."

[liminal_luke]

1 hour ago, silent thunder said:

 

Always free to share your opinion.  Never free from potential consequences however...

 

I wonder what consequences you´re thinking of.  The most obvious consequence is mod action, though that seems unlikely as long as civility is maintained.  Personally, I´m more worried about more mundane social consequences.  Like most of us, I like to be liked.  I want to belong.  So far I feel that the trans people active in this thread have been remarkably tolerant of my not-always-PC opinions and for that I´m very grateful.

[Nungali]

7 hours ago, Elysium said:

That indeed is so disgusting, can you send a picture of him so I can be more disgusted? ☺️

 

 

 

[Nungali]

6 hours ago, stirling said:

 

The Dao, the "I AM" and Buddhas are genderless. Most of my teachers (and me) would say (or have said) that they also have had substantial, or complete reductions in identification with their bodies or other identity constructs. I can see now that gender, for me anyway, was always shades of grey. 

 

Why wouldn't we, living in Samsara, drop the walls of various types of identification to alleviate our suffering? 

 

 

Is that 'we'  directed at    those with that belief system , or is it one of those 'all encompassing Daobums we'  , that is supposed to include  me  ( and Maddie and the wild diverse collections of people here )  ?

 

The general negative answer would be  ; ' because 'we' dont have the same beliefs that you do .'

 

The positive answer would be ; ' Because some people  hold the 'white school' view   that existence, incarnation and life are positive affirmed spiritual choices   and suffering is alleviated by different means .

 

To assume or insist everyone should have the same belief, or be following the same  ideals creates that very situation where people like Maddie are being judged ... not due  ( directly    ) to transgenderphobia but due to a projection of where her spiritual path and direction 'should '  be .

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Maddie]

5 minutes ago, Nungali said:

To assume or insist everyone should have the same belief, or be following the same  ideals creates that very situation where people like Maddie are being judged ... not due  ( directly    ) to transgenderphobia but due to a projection of where her spiritual path and direction 'should '  be .

 

 

That was an excellent summary. I had been feeling like someone else's spiritual understanding was being projected onto me. 

[Nungali]

2 hours ago, liminal_luke said:

It´s hard to pin down the motivations of other people with any certainty.  I thought @Salvijus was hiding an antipathy toward trans people under the cover of spiritual talk, but he denies it and what do I know?  Sorry if I got you wrong Salvijus.  The topic reminds me of a conversation I had with a black friend of mine.  Greg told me that years ago he was often followed around in stores by security people and chalked this up to racism.  He supposed that I´d never been followed around like that. (I´m white.)  That´s not true though.  I remember being followed around from room to room by a shopkeeper in a gallery in Guadalajara.  She was pretending to clean and I felt like telling her to cut the act and just accompany me as I looked around.  Apparently, the whiteness of my skin didn´t put her at ease.  Who woulda thunk?

 

This is a difficult topic and I hope we can give each other more than the usual "benefit of the doubt."

 

But we all know that in Guadalajara , most gay people are shoplifters ( second after black people and after them are the transgender shoplifters )  . 

 

 

People I know here , nice Aboriginal family , got security guard stopped while  shopping :  " Your son stole that shirt ! "

Big argument ensued , they got management down from office. The guard was asked if he actually saw the theft and he  hesitated and mumbled . Then dad showed the shirt label brand  " Do you even sell this brand ?"  They didnt . Then the guard was asked what led him to believe he stole it, he couldnt answer .  Dad went off, threatened to call his lawyer..

 

A nice out of court settlement they got       .

[Nungali]

12 minutes ago, Maddie said:

 

That was an excellent summary. I had been feeling like someone else's spiritual understanding was being projected onto me. 

 

Hang on, didnt I just do that ?   (and get it right    ) 

[stirling]

17 minutes ago, Nungali said:

Is that 'we'  directed at    those with that belief system , or is it one of those 'all encompassing Daobums we'  , that is supposed to include  me  ( and Maddie and the wild diverse collections of people here )  ?

 

The general negative answer would be  ; ' because 'we' dont have the same beliefs that you do .'

 

The positive answer would be ; ' Because some people  hold the 'white school' view   that existence, incarnation and life are positive affirmed spiritual choices   and suffering is alleviated by different means .

 

To assume or insist everyone should have the same belief, or be following the same  ideals creates that very situation where people like Maddie are being judged ... not due  ( directly    ) to transgenderphobia but due to a projection of where her spiritual path and direction 'should '  be .

 

I see I have been unskillful with my language here.

 

What I am saying is: Identity for everyone I have known, including myself, is not a fixed position. If we carry around an identification that doesn't make us happy, why wouldn't we drop that identification or even choose a new one that better represents how we feel we are in the world? Maddie has gone from soldier to acupuncturist. That in itself would be a major change in identification. 

 

The other part of my post was in reference to what you were saying in YOUR post. 

 

Quote

The 'divine androgyne' concept .  ' a blend of male and female or by being neither male nor female '

 

I support what Maddie has chosen (and have said so privately) and the right of anyone to choose to present in the world as they wish.

 

 

[Maddie]

I think it is important to remember that just because we discard the raft when we get to the other side of the river does not mean it would  be a good idea to do so while still in the middle of the river. 

[liminal_luke]

38 minutes ago, Nungali said:

 

But we all know that in Guadalajara , most gay people are shoplifters ( second after black people and after them are the transgender shoplifters )  . 

 

Ain´t that the truth.

[Maddie]

3 hours ago, Nungali said:

and after them are the transgender shoplifters 

 

^the actual reason I transitioned. 

[Salvijus]

8 hours ago, Maddie said:

I don't recall in all of those semen threads someone saying "I am a 32 year old male and I really want to retain all my semen because then I'll be able to shoot lighting out of my nostril's like Palpatine" and someone coming at them like "why do you identify with being a male? Don't you realize gender doesn't exist because something something spiritual reasons?" 

 

I'm not following what you're trying to say here. 

 

The thing is. The nature of the topic in this thread will naturally draw the type of questions and conversations that are happening. Why would you find it strange that a thread about identity was met with questions about identity? And there's nothing "spiritual woo woo" about talking about identity. It's just a question of what's the truth of the matter. 

 

Also I'm under the impression that the discussions of what is the truth regarding different topics, ideas, teachings, information, perceptions happen on every thread on this forum and not just this one. 

Edited May 8 by Salvijus

[Salvijus]

7 hours ago, Maddie said:

 

That was an excellent summary. I had been feeling like someone else's spiritual understanding was being openly discussed with me. 

 

Wow. That's so scary. 

 

And btw this understanding is your own aswell. I could even quote you saying things on this thread earlier in complete alignment with what I'm saying about identity. I'm applying your own understanding to talk about this subject. 

Edited May 8 by Salvijus

[Salvijus]

7 hours ago, Maddie said:

I think it is important to remember that just because we discard the raft when we get to the other side of the river does not mean it would  be a good idea to do so while still in the middle of the river. 

 

Nobody is going to drown in the middle of the river by deepening their understanding. If fact genuine inquiry is what will get you to the other side. I don't think that analogy applies well here. 

Edited May 8 by Salvijus

[Maddie]

One doesn't see through identity by being told that they shouldn't have one anymore than one solves their financial problems by being told they shouldn't have bills.

[Salvijus]

25 minutes ago, Maddie said:

One doesn't see through identity by being told that they shouldn't have one anymore than one solves their financial problems by being told they shouldn't have bills

 

True. I like what you sayed before also that it takes awareness to stop clinging to false things. I believe it's possible to have discussions that make people reflect and question things deeper and that in turn is what brings results. How wonderful is that huh?

[liminal_luke]

It´s all very well to have spiritual discussions but I think we need to be aware of the context.  Here, in Maddie´s case, the context is someone whose very personal and deeply considered decisions about her body resulted in her losing regular contact with much of her family.  Or so I gather from earlier in this discussion.  If this was my context, I´d be a smidge sensitive.  I´d feel a bit put upon by a world that seemed to understand me so little.  I might even be a tad angry.  Which is not to say that Maddie is any of these things -- who knows?  But this is the interpersonal context of the thread as I see it.

 

None of this means we can´t have spiritual conversations about identity.  We can.  But we should do so with sensitivity and awareness.  We owe the people personally connected to this issue that much.

Edited May 8 by liminal_luke

[Salvijus]

39 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

It´s all very well to have spiritual discussions but I think we need to be aware of the context. 

 

There is no context or situation in the world where search for truth would be bad or inappropriate. 

 

But for the record, I do put a lot of effort to be as gentle as I can and tip toe around all the triggers people might have. 

 

I do apologize if I'm not doing it perfectly. It's not easy. 

Edited May 8 by Salvijus

[Maddie]

2 hours ago, liminal_luke said:

It´s all very well to have spiritual discussions but I think we need to be aware of the context.  Here, in Maddie´s case, the context is someone whose very personal and deeply considered decisions about her body resulted in her losing regular contact with much of her family.  Or so I gather from earlier in this discussion.  If this was my context, I´d be a smidge sensitive.  I´d feel a bit put upon by a world that seemed to understand me so little.  I might even be a tad angry.  Which is not to say that Maddie is any of these things -- who knows?  But this is the interpersonal context of the thread as I see it.

 

None of this means we can´t have spiritual conversations about identity.  We can.  But we should do so with sensitivity and awareness.  We owe the people personally connected to this issue that much.

 

Not only has almost all of my family stopped having anything to do with me after I came out as trans but since they're very religious I've been told repeatedly that I'm possessed by the devil and going to hell for being trans because they're concerned for my soul which I guess is a spiritual argument. So getting spiritual about being trans definitely is triggering..

[liminal_luke]

24 minutes ago, Maddie said:

 

Not only has almost all of my family stopped having anything to do with me after I came out as trans but since they're very religious I've been told repeatedly that I'm possessed by the devil and going to hell for being trans because they're concerned for my soul which I guess is a spiritual argument. So getting spiritual about being trans definitely is triggering..

 

I´d be concerned for their souls.  Different strokes, I guess.

[Maddie]

1 hour ago, liminal_luke said:

 

I´d be concerned for their souls.  Different strokes, I guess.

 

Ironic isn't it?

[surrogate corpse]

The current discussion reminds me of a friend of mine who, when I was telling her about my pre-transition attempts to be "non-binary", responded, "Yeah, yeah, sure, you can be non-binary... after estrogen."

[Elysium]

3 hours ago, Maddie said:

as trans but since they're very religious I've been told repeatedly that I'm possessed by the devil and going to hell

Wouldn't you be a victim therefore not go to hell if you were possessed 

[Maddie]

50 minutes ago, surrogate corpse said:

The current discussion reminds me of a friend of mine who, when I was telling her about my pre-transition attempts to be "non-binary", responded, "Yeah, yeah, sure, you can be non-binary... after estrogen."

 

I'm sorry I don't think I understand.