Transgender Q&A

[Maddie]

2 minutes ago, Elysium said:

Wouldn't you be a victim therefore not go to hell if you were possessed 

 

Well that's rational thinking lol

[surrogate corpse]

16 minutes ago, Maddie said:

I'm sorry I don't think I understand.

 

Trying to detach from identity without addressing the underlying suffering doesn't work.

 

Some folks in this thread have been recommending spiritual detachment from identity as an alternative to transition. What they are recommending—however well-meaning they might be—is torture. How do well-meaning people come to recommend torture? By failing to understand not just gender, but also how it is that attachment to identity causes suffering.

 

Suppose we accept that giving up attachment to identity is good. (I'm sympathetic!) Transition is, for people like you and me, a precondition for doing so. In other words: "yeah, yeah, sure, you can be non-binary... after estrogen"

Edited May 8 by surrogate corpse

[surrogate corpse]

Sometimes, when Dao pipes through the empty inner hollows of things, what it pipes is I want a pussy.

[Mark Foote]

16 hours ago, Salvijus said:

 

It's just a question of what's the truth of the matter. 

 

Also I'm under the impression that the discussions of what is the truth regarding different topics, ideas, teachings, information, perceptions happen on every thread on this forum and not just this one. 
 

 

 

The first incompleteness theorem states that no consistent system of axioms whose theorems can be listed by an effective procedure (i.e., an algorithm) is capable of proving all truths about the arithmetic of natural numbers. For any such consistent formal system, there will always be statements about natural numbers that are true, but that are unprovable within the system.

 

(Wikipedia, "Gödel's incompleteness theorems")

 

 

There are arithmetic statements that cannot be proven to be true or false from any consistent system of axioms.  I think the physical universe within which we operate is analogous to arithmetic in that regard--there will be statements about the universe that cannot be proven true or false from any consistent set of starting assumptions.

What's important to me is my necessity.  I went without a lot of things for awhile, and I became certain of what my personal necessity was, going forward.  

Gautama was revered by his initial set of companions because he was the foremost ascetic among them.  In the end, he barely had the strength to pull himself out of a river by a low-hanging branch.  After one of the locals nursed him back to health, he came to a fortunate insight:

 

“I know that while my father, the Sakyan, was ploughing, and I was sitting in the cool shade of a rose-apple tree, aloof from pleasures of the senses, aloof from unskilled states of mind, I entered on the first meditation, which is accompanied by initial thought and discursive thought, is born of aloofness, and is rapturous and joyful, and while abiding therein, I thought: ‘Now could this be a way to awakening?’ Then, following on my mindfulness, Aggivissana, there was the consciousness: This is itself the Way to awakening. This occurred to me, Aggivissana: ‘Now, am I afraid of that happiness which is happiness apart from sense-pleasures, apart from unskilled states of mind?’ This occurred to me...: I am not afraid of that happiness which is happiness apart from sense-pleasures, apart from unskilled states of mind.’”

 

(MN 1 246-247, Pali Text Society Vol I p 301)

In "Battle for the Mind", Sargant writes about the underlying mechanism of religious conversion and Korean brainwashing.  Seems that with continued suggestion and enough stress, starvation, and illness, any normal person can be expected to wake up one morning believing in whatever they've been told is their salvation.  It's a mechanism that's built into our physiology.  

There's necessity in the placement of attention in the movement of breath, particularly as outbreath turns to inbreath and inbreath turns to outbreath.  If I take a bent-knee posture for any length of time,  that becomes apparent!

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 8 by Mark Foote

[Maddie]

3 hours ago, surrogate corpse said:

 

Trying to detach from identity without addressing the underlying suffering doesn't work.

 

Some folks in this thread have been recommending spiritual detachment from identity as an alternative to transition. What they are recommending—however well-meaning they might be—is torture. How do well-meaning people come to recommend torture? By failing to understand not just gender, but also how it is that attachment to identity causes suffering.

 

Suppose we accept that giving up attachment to identity is good. (I'm sympathetic!) Transition is, for people like you and me, a precondition for doing so. In other words: "yeah, yeah, sure, you can be non-binary... after estrogen"

 

Oh yes okay I understand now. This is exactly what I did for several years when I was trying to fight the whole thing. I told myself identity is an illusion it shouldn't matter. My mental health didn't care about my theory LOL.

 

This goes back to what I said about the raft. And the big picture I realize identity is a construct but in the meantime I'm in the middle of the river on that raft I'm not there yet I need to do what I need to do to have the best life I possibly can and not be miserable all the time.

 

I think a lot of people are forgetting that the process of enlightenment is typically long and slow and takes a lot of work and we can't just ditch identity because we decide that sounds like a fun thing to do on a Wednesday afternoon.

Edited May 8 by Maddie

[stirling]

4 hours ago, surrogate corpse said:

Some folks in this thread have been recommending spiritual detachment from identity as an alternative to transition. What they are recommending—however well-meaning they might be—is torture. How do well-meaning people come to recommend torture? By failing to understand not just gender, but also how it is that attachment to identity causes suffering.

 

Suppose we accept that giving up attachment to identity is good. (I'm sympathetic!) Transition is, for people like you and me, a precondition for doing so. In other words: "yeah, yeah, sure, you can be non-binary... after estrogen"

Just so we are clear, I am NOT recommending detachment as an alternative to transition. Suffering and asceticism are not a fixture of the Buddhist path (speaking more specifically) which is why it is called the "middle way". I am also not advocating for or against transitioning - that choice rightly belongs to the individual. The path to understanding necessarily INCLUDES the struggle with identity in its many guises and I applaud anyone who makes headway on it. 

[surrogate corpse]

(to Maddie, not Stirling)

 

Not just that, but you were using "identity is fake" as a means to cling to male identity! (so was i)

 

transition is a form of letting go of identity. it can also be a way of clinging to a new identity (perhaps because it is a necessary liferaft), but that isn't essential to it. Only the relinquishing is essential.

Edited May 9 by surrogate corpse

[stirling]

Enlightenment is the end of struggle, which also means the end of "self" and identity. This is how enlightenment looked when one of my teachers, the late Jana Drakka,  was alive:

 

 

Many of the people in the hospice she regularly worked in called her "sir" or "Mr.". It didn't bother her. She was lesbian. If you asked her what her gender was she would say that her body appeared female, but that she HAD no gender identification. When I think of how the struggle of identity ends, she is the primary person I think of and admire, and the reason why I posted anything at all previously. 

[liminal_luke]

I looked Jana Drakka up and found this video especially inspiring...

 

 

[Nungali]

11 hours ago, Maddie said:

 

Not only has almost all of my family stopped having anything to do with me after I came out as trans but since they're very religious I've been told repeatedly that I'm possessed by the devil and going to hell for being trans because they're concerned for my soul which I guess is a spiritual argument. So getting spiritual about being trans definitely is triggering..

 

The last religious person that tried  to tell me gays and trans go to hell, and I probably will too (for thinking they dont ) got ; 

 

"Jesus was born of a virgin right ?   The only way that is possible is if Mary was a 46XO genetic variation and exhibited  parthenogenesis  (one of the possible results of 46XO women )  successfully  and  that is genetically impossible unless it results in a female birth . Which means Jesus was a woman . 

 

Yet he chose to 'externally  transition'  to a man .

 

There has been at least one sermon it  .

 

But I guess, I am going to hell ..... I will say hello to Jesus for you when I get there . ''

 

 

They probably have a worse 'sub-basement' in hell for people that say things like that     .

 

 

[Nungali]

5 hours ago, Maddie said:

 

Oh yes okay I understand now. This is exactly what I did for several years when I was trying to fight the whole thing. I told myself identity is an illusion it shouldn't matter. My mental health didn't care about my theory LOL.

 

This goes back to what I said about the raft. And the big picture I realize identity is a construct but in the meantime I'm in the middle of the river on that raft I'm not there yet I need to do what I need to do to have the best life I possibly can and not be miserable all the time.

 

I think a lot of people are forgetting that the process of enlightenment is typically long and slow and takes a lot of work and we can't just ditch identity because we decide that sounds like a fun thing to do on a Wednesday afternoon.

 

 

Sure you can .... I see people do it all the time   ....  on the outside !

 

“Woe  to you  scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which appear beautiful on the outside, but inside are full of the bones of the dead and every kind of impurity. "

 

Matt 23:27.
 

 

 

[Sanity Check]

12 hours ago, Maddie said:

 

Not only has almost all of my family stopped having anything to do with me after I came out as trans but since they're very religious I've been told repeatedly that I'm possessed by the devil and going to hell for being trans because they're concerned for my soul which I guess is a spiritual argument. So getting spiritual about being trans definitely is triggering..

 

 

Lust is one of seven deadly sins.

 

While LGBTs weren't sinful enough to make the top 7 list.

 

Is the catholic church slippin?

 

Or are LGBTs working hard to make Santa's nice but not too naughty list?

 

I'm not gonna judge.

[Maddie]

3 hours ago, surrogate corpse said:

(to Maddie, not Stirling)

 

Not just that, but you were using "identity is fake" as a means to cling to male identity! (so was i)

 

 

 

That's very insightful! 

[Maddie]

26 minutes ago, Sanity Check said:

 

 

Lust is one of seven deadly sins.

 

While LGBTs weren't sinful enough to make the top 7 list.

 

Is the catholic church slippin?

 

Or are LGBTs working hard to make Santa's nice but not too naughty list?

 

I'm not gonna judge.

 

One of my family members told me I was going to hell for being trans and I said can you show me where it says that in the bible? They were unable to LOL.

[Sanity Check]

29 minutes ago, Maddie said:

 

One of my family members told me I was going to hell for being trans and I said can you show me where it says that in the bible? They were unable to LOL.

 

 

The old testament of the bible says.

 

"A man lying with a man as a woman is an abomination."

 

"Eating shellfish (crab & lobster) is an abomination."

 

"Eating that which has a cloven hoof and chews the cud (pork) is an abomination."

 

Most christians are A OK with 2/3 abominations apparently.

 

There are abominations and then there are   a b o m i n a t i o n s.

 

Or however they rationalize it.

 

Maybe they flip a coin to decide which abominations are legit.

 

 

Edited May 9 by Sanity Check

[Salvijus]

7 hours ago, surrogate corpse said:

Not just that, but you were using "identity is fake" as a means to cling to male identity! 

 

That's an interesting perspective. 

 

It made me think. Indeed it could be that some are afraid to wear the clothes they want to wear, the clothes that reflect their inner state because they feel it would look outrageous and socially unacceptable. And the fear is making them conform to the "norm". In such a case going beyond the fear and embracing what your heart wants to wear is a very good act towards authenticity and can play a role in transcending fear based identity. 

 

This logic can be applied to transformation of the body aswell. So that's a nice way to look at it. 

 

But here's the thing. Your outlook could be a reflection of a messed up mind or ego aswell. For example, if you have lots of hate in you, you might wear "fuck you" t-shirt that day and feel good about it. You will think. Yea that's my authentic self. And in a way it is. But it will be the reflection of the ego(distorted mind) not the real you (natural mind). And probably such a person would feel much more comfortable and happier in "fuck you" t-shirt rather than "I love you" t-shirt. The "I love you" t-shirt might make them puke. And probably they will defend that outlook a lot. And the question would follow. Is movement in this direction have value towards happyness you're really looking for? 

 

Sometimes what people call happiness can be seen as "fool's gold" aswell. 

 

Interesting stuff. This is getting deep. 

Edited May 9 by Salvijus

[surrogate corpse]

@Salvijus

 

Thank you for your kind words about my point being interesting. I am glad you found something worth chewing on in what I said.

 

In your explanation of why you found it interesting, you showed a concern for "transcending fear based identity". I share that concern. So I think we have found a point of agreement that can perhaps help resolve our points of disagreement.

 

I think that, if you genuinely want to help people transcend fear-based identity, you are going about it the wrong way. You are insistent on keeping keeping open the possibility that someone who chooses to transition is doing so on the basis of a delusion. Here is my basic critique: this insistence serves to help maintain fear-based identity.

 

Let me explain why. My apologies in advance for the length of this message. I hope to be clear, and thorough.

 

Everything pushes against people transitioning. Anyone who has reached the point of making that choice is doing so in the face of enormous social pressure. The depth of fear, of sheer terror, that one has to overcome to let oneself even consider it as an option is so, so much more than people who haven't stared down that choice realize. People don't stare down and overcome that terror on the basis of a distorted mind. The distortion is precisely the fear.

 

And that fear claims reason as its ally: reason that scrutinizes, that raises doubts, that asks, "am I really trans? do I really have a right to do this? might I just be deluded?" Reason that works overtime to raise doubt, to point to all the reasons it might just be ego, to set conditions on when transition is acceptable. Reason that lies and connives to keep you from staring your desire dead on in the face. To make the choice to transition is to cut—if only for a moment—through that reasoning and that doubt with a knife, to look that screaming, wailing, hurting part of you in the face and say, "I see you. I won't look away. I'm going to take care of you."

 

It's easy to lose that. When I knew I was trans, it was a specific moment. I saw, beyond words, the content of my desire. If I had to put it into words, it wasn't "I'm a woman" or "I'm trans", it was Rilke's "you must change your life". I saw my inarticulate but wholly genuine desire on one side, and on the other side I saw the whole horrible mass of "reasons" for what they were: terror.

 

Then that moment faded into memory: the memory of what I saw, what I knew. And when that happened, the terror came surging back. I have never felt as scared, small, helpless, and alone as in that first hour or two after the realization. I curled up naked in bed clinging to the memory of what I saw, telling myself (did I know? was it just hope?) that if I could hold onto that through the night, the terror would vanish, that this was its last gasp.

 

When I woke up the next morning, the terror was gone, and 20 years of depression vanished with it. Just like that. Neither has come back.

 

I spell this out in such detail because I want you to know what the decision actually looks like that you are rather blithely suggesting might be mere delusion. The details differ from person to person, but the broad outlines are entirely common. I see the same struggle in every trans person—without exception—I have ever talked to: the struggle, against monstrous fear, to acknowledge one's deepest desire. In this struggle, fear (aided by its best ally reason) seizes on every resource at its disposal to hide that desire, to delegitimize it, to raise doubts about it.

 

What I am hoping you will see is: you are on the side of fear. This isn't a claim about your intent. I do not believe you mean to be aiding fear. Indeed, I believe you when you say, explicitly, that you are not. It is a claim about effects. What you are doing is furnishing fear with resources. You can't hurt me, because I've made the decision and seen its effects on my life. You can't hurt me because I have long since let go of the fear you are aiding. But should you show this "concern" to any trans person still grappling with that fear, you will hurt them. You will strengthen their fear and weaken their desire.

 

There's a general rule here. If you're a cis person, by the time someone is letting you see their struggle with gender, they're deep in that struggle. Showing "concern" that takes the form of "well is this really what you want?" can only harm them. By that time, the single best thing you can do is set the fear at ease. And the way to do that is to show them that, whatever else the rest of the world might do, you will accept and see them as they are—whatever they decide that is. Because, if they're coming to you, if they're letting you see it, that's what they need: something, anything, that will make them less afraid.

Edited May 9 by surrogate corpse

[Maddie]

5 hours ago, Sanity Check said:

 

 

The old testament of the bible says.

 

"A man lying with a man as a woman is an abomination."

 

 

That's about homosexuality not being trans.

[blue eyed snake]

9 hours ago, stirling said:

Enlightenment is the end of struggle, which also means the end of "self" and identity. This is how enlightenment looked when one of my teachers, the late Jana Drakka,  was alive:

 

 

Many of the people in the hospice she regularly worked in called her "sir" or "Mr.". It didn't bother her. She was lesbian. If you asked her what her gender was she would say that her body appeared female, but that she HAD no gender identification. When I think of how the struggle of identity ends, she is the primary person I think of and admire, and the reason why I posted anything at all previously. 

 

 

_/|\_

[Sanity Check]

1 hour ago, Maddie said:

 

That's about homosexuality not being trans.

 

 

Well for what its worth, is it ok if I say I don't think that LGBTism.

 

Is as sinful as some of your relatives claim.

 

Gay marriage has been legal in my state for many years. Tons of gay / trans couples everywhere no one looks twice.

 

Its only recently that things have gotten a bit strange. But that has more to do with politics than anything.

[Maddie]

8 minutes ago, Sanity Check said:

 

 

Well for what its worth, is it ok if I say I don't think that LGBTism.

 

Is as sinful as some of your relatives claim.

 

Gay marriage has been legal in my state for many years. Tons of gay / trans couples everywhere no one looks twice.

 

Its only recently that things have gotten a bit strange. But that has more to do with politics than anything.

 

Oh I don't think anything is wrong with being gay, just saying that verse is not about being trans.

[Salvijus]

@surrogate corpse

 

Reading your posts made contemplate and I realized that we all desire to have our appearance be in accordance to our identity. 

 

Some carry the identity of "tough guy" so they seek to have tattoos and big muscles and even speak in a certain manner. All to form a certain appearance. 

 

Others are obsessed with spirituality so they wear wizard robes and what not. They want to be seen like that. 

 

Others identify with being "elite" so they wear class and brandy clothers and expensive watches maybe etc. 

 

Each choice for appearance, dressing style, our hair style, body shape and form is all about being a reflection of what we identify with. 

 

I realized transgenderism should called transappearace instead. It would be a more accurate description of the phenomena isn't it. 

 

_________________________________________

Now to adress your last comment. 

 

I see what you're saying that certain appearances can be met with lots of judgement in the world. Like wearing wizard clothes could invite lots of roasting at you. And to stay true to what you want to look like despite all the judgements being thrown at you requires certain level transcendce of fear. And that way we become more authentic. That is very good imo. 

 

Perhaps one thing that is also worth adding is. Our appearance and outlook probably contains many elements that are not a reflection of natural mind but a reflection of distortions of various degrees in our mind. And that it's perhaps wise to keep a lose grip on our appearance because it's anyways going to change many times as we go through the process of turning the mind into the natural state without any distortions.

 

In the meantime, having a desire to look according to our inner condition is natural. Appearance that doesn't fit our inner environment can can be very uncomfortable. 

Edited May 9 by Salvijus

[Maddie]

20 minutes ago, Salvijus said:

@surrogate corpse

 

I realized transgenderism should called transappearace instead. It would be a more accurate description of the phenomena isn't it. 

 

 

 

No that's called crossdressing. 

 

We change our appearance to align better with our identity. 

Edited May 9 by Maddie

[Maddie]

One side effect of transitioning that I'm not so keen about is that I used to be strong. Used to be lol.

[liminal_luke]

If an enlightened person is unattached to their own male or female appearance in the world, surely they´re also unattached to the male or female appearance of others.

Edited May 9 by liminal_luke