Transgender Q&A

[old3bob]

 

Great communications "mate".

 

[Tommy]

16 hours ago, liminal_luke said:

Like so many others, I´m sorry to see Maddie go and wish her well.  I hope she feels supported and safe.  Still, I´m not sure we should accept Maddie´s view of what counts as transphobic wholesale, without applying a critical lens.  Is it transphobic, for instance, to question whether transwomen should play in women´s sports?  (This was one of the main areas of controversy in the thread.)  California governor Gavin Newsom, who is not known for his fascist right-wing views, recently said that transwomen´s participation in women´s sports is "deeply unfair" --  and, as you might imagine, he´s getting hell for that comment in some progressive quarters.  So Gavin´s a transphobe.  Along with Tommy in the thread.  Me too, although I think the question of participation should be decided by individual sporting organizations and not the federal government.  

 

The point is there´s not much wiggle-room to step outside the boundaries of progressive consensus and still be considered a good person.  There´s a meme going around with a picture of an angry man saying "there are 600 genders, but only 2 political positions -- mine and Nazi."  It´s funny because it´s true.  We´re not living in a time when diversity of political views is amply tolerated.  

I believed that this forum is a place to have conversations. To express ideas and get feedback. Express opinions and learn from others. What I have learned is that I am sorry that I made mention of any such things that got Maddie so angry and so hateful of me. It was not my intent to offend. And did not believe it was transphobic at the time. I regret having said anything of the sort now. I have apologized may times and each time was met with more anger and hatred. I wish her well.

[Bindi]

Just on this one issue, and not thinking of myself as a right wing fascist, I have to agree trans women in women’s sport is an issue which deserves objective debate. 

[doc benway]

An entire group of living and loving human beings, trans and intersex, not to mention the rest of the LGBTQ+ community, are being faced with legalized discrimination, loss of jobs, loss of healthcare, loss of humanity, violence and threats of violence, high rates of suicide, and loss of validation as human beings in the US and elsewhere. And yet there’s all this hand wringing about a handful of trans women competing in sports and the possibility of an unfair edge in competition.

 

My feeling is FUCK sports and an unfair edge in competition at the moment. In the context of the loss of basic human rights, it is an exceedingly unimportant detail that deserves the least priority and attention. We can have that discussion AFTER we insure that our federal, state, and local governments acknowledge the need for safety, healthcare, and basic human rights for people, regardless of gender identity. Sex and gender are most certainly NOT binary or dichotomous. That is a societal construct of convenience. Anyone stuck in, or choosing, that particular type of ignorance should educate themselves. 

https://newsroom.ucla.edu/stories/male-or-female

 

Apologies if I sound harsh but my tolerance for anti-trans propaganda and the ridiculous obsession with related athletic issues is at an all time low.

[Tommy]

1 hour ago, doc benway said:

This is a good illustration of the power of not identifying with the illusory self. If I hold tightly to certain beliefs or traditions, if I identify with them, words could feel insulting or provocative. This is why politics and religion cause such intense reactivity, because we identify with them at a deep level, we allow them to define our core values, our very sense of self. If I am fully open to your words, without feeling the need to grasp at or protect my own beliefs, my spiritual identity if you will, then who is there to take offense? I can be open to being right, to being wrong, to believing this or believing that, or best of all IME, to releasing any sense of a need to believe. Why is there a need to grasp at a belief when I can be open and present to this very moment, as it is? A good metaphor for this is being as the sky, open and clear. Clouds and even powerful storms can arise in the sky, but they simply pass through, leaving the sky open and clear, as before. The sky is indestructible because it is empty.

This is a good illustration of the power of not identifying with the illusory self. If I hold tight to certain beliefs or traditions, if I identify them words could feel insulting or provocative. Those are good words.

 

 

 

9 minutes ago, doc benway said:

An entire group of living and loving human beings, trans and intersex, not to mention the rest of the LGBTQ+ community, are being faced with legalized discrimination, loss of jobs, loss of healthcare, loss of humanity, violence and threats of violence, high rates of suicide, and loss of validation as human beings in the US and elsewhere. And yet there’s all this hand wringing about a handful of trans women competing in sports and the possibility of an unfair edge in competition.

 

My feeling is FUCK sports and an unfair edge in competition at the moment. In the context of the loss of basic human rights, it is an exceedingly unimportant detail that deserves the least priority and attention. We can have that discussion AFTER we insure that our federal, state, and local governments acknowledge the need for safety, healthcare, and basic human rights for people, regardless of gender identity. Sex and gender are most certainly NOT binary or dichotomous. That is a societal construct of convenience. Anyone stuck in, or choosing, that particular type of ignorance should educate themselves. 

https://newsroom.ucla.edu/stories/male-or-female

 

Apologies if I sound harsh but my tolerance for anti-trans propaganda and the ridiculous obsession with related athletic issues is at an all time low.

Sorry, trying to reconcile this post with your previous post. Not that you are wrong or right. Just trying to understand. Humans are quite complex. Still, I did believe that a forum was about having conversations. Asking questions and make statements on a reasonable level and reply in the same manner. Well, I am trying to educate myself.

[Bindi]

1 hour ago, doc benway said:

An entire group of living and loving human beings, trans and intersex, not to mention the rest of the LGBTQ+ community, are being faced with legalized discrimination, loss of jobs, loss of healthcare, loss of humanity, violence and threats of violence, high rates of suicide, and loss of validation as human beings in the US and elsewhere. And yet there’s all this hand wringing about a handful of trans women competing in sports and the possibility of an unfair edge in competition.

 

My feeling is FUCK sports and an unfair edge in competition at the moment. In the context of the loss of basic human rights, it is an exceedingly unimportant detail that deserves the least priority and attention. We can have that discussion AFTER we insure that our federal, state, and local governments acknowledge the need for safety, healthcare, and basic human rights for people, regardless of gender identity. Sex and gender are most certainly NOT binary or dichotomous. That is a societal construct of convenience. Anyone stuck in, or choosing, that particular type of ignorance should educate themselves. 

https://newsroom.ucla.edu/stories/male-or-female

 

Apologies if I sound harsh but my tolerance for anti-trans propaganda and the ridiculous obsession with related athletic issues is at an all time low.

Fair point, there is a lot going wrong right now, the US president is acting in the interests of himself, the rich and the Russians, more Ukrainian civilians are dying right now because of him, US neighbours are feeling threatened, some people in the  US are being targeted, in this setting I agree trans women in sport is an irrelevant detail at the moment.

 

 

Edited March 8 by Bindi

[Mark Foote]

From last night's PBS Newshour:

 

Laura Barron-Lopez:

What does the science say about a competitive advantage or lack thereof among transgender girls competing in sports?

 

Dr. Bradley Anawalt:

Well, the evidence is incomplete on that particular question.

 

The best data we have really comes from military recruits, people that have been enlisted in the Army or the Air Force. A 2023 study, they have an annual test where they undergo a 1.5-mile timed run. They do as many sit-ups as they can in a minute, as many push-ups as they can in a minute.

 

They had data from these individuals before they started gender-affirming hormone therapy, and then each year after that, for up to four years.

 

Laura Barron-Lopez:

Anawalt says, even though the performance of trans women dropped after starting gender-affirming hormones, it took two years for their running times to fall in line with women assigned female at birth. The sit-up scores of trans women stayed higher until four years after they started hormones, but their push-up scores remained higher the entire time.

 

Dr. Bradley Anawalt:

What we don't really know is, what are the effects in elite athletes? Most of the data is from people that are not elite athletes.

 

And the other thing that we don't know is, how long and how significant are these changes over time?

 

 

... Laura Barron-Lopez:

You have said we're never going to be able to answer the fundamental question about fairness when talking about this issue. Why exactly do you say that?

 

Dr. Bradley Anawalt:

It comes back to this conflict between these two important values that I alluded to, the fairness and then the desire to allow everybody to participate in sports.

 

And whenever you do that, there are going to be inherent inequalities between people. And how do we limit those inequalities and yet allow everybody to play? I really don't think that science is going to give us a perfect answer on this. We can get better and better evidence and data about the effects of gender-affirming hormone therapy on athletic performance.

 

But, ultimately, this is going to be a question for the general public to try to balance out those two very important issues. And it's also going to be an opportunity for us to ask the question, just how important our sports at the very highest level in our society?

 

This whole debate rages around sports because of how much we venerate sports and, at this point in time, what an economic engine it's become.

 

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/what-science-tells-us-about-transgender-athletes

 

I particularly liked that last part, ""how do we limit those inequalities and yet allow everybody to play?"

 

 

Edited March 8 by Mark Foote

[doc benway]

4 hours ago, Tommy said:

This is a good illustration of the power of not identifying with the illusory self. If I hold tight to certain beliefs or traditions, if I identify them words could feel insulting or provocative. Those are good words.

 

Yes, there is the practice and the ideal of non-identification.

It is a wonderful practice and, with enough familiarity, becomes effortless and very consistent.

It serves me well in many circumstances.

 

Quote

Sorry, trying to reconcile this post with your previous post. Not that you are wrong or right. Just trying to understand. Humans are quite complex. Still, I did believe that a forum was about having conversations. Asking questions and make statements on a reasonable level and reply in the same manner. Well, I am trying to educate myself.

 

And then there’s the imperfect human being living in a society that is regressing towards xenophobic, racist, misogynist, fascist, theocratic and imperialistic ideologies. This leads to anger and fear, especially for those more vulnerable to the cruel policies of this insane administration and its supporters. These are genuine feelings and have an important place in my life and our society. While spiritual practices are important, and effective at easing the stress and suffering, it is very easy to bypass real feelings and forego the real need to engage for the benefit of others, and for myself. My life, at the moment, embraces both the numinous and the pain. I do try to engage in practice regularly, whenever the need is there, but do not try to suppress outrage in the face of outrageous offenses.

Edited March 8 by doc benway

[doc benway]

5 hours ago, Tommy said:

Still, I did believe that a forum was about having conversations. Asking questions and make statements on a reasonable level and reply in the same manner.

 

This puts me in mind of a quote from Robert Jones, Jr, sometimes mis-attributed to James Baldwin -

 

 

 

Edited March 8 by doc benway

[Tommy]

@doc benway

On the one hand you talk about not identifying with those words "If I am fully open to your words, without feeling the need to grasp at or protect my own beliefs, my spiritual identity if you will, then who is there to take offense?" Then you come up with, "These are genuine feelings and have an important place in my life and our society..."  I wonder how some can compartmentalize their lives so that they are always right? Not saying you are right or wrong. Just trying to educate myself.

 

 

Note: I said, "Still, I did believe that a forum was about having conversations. Asking questions and make statements on a reasonable level and reply in the same manner." 

Edited March 9 by Tommy

[Master Logray]

On 3/7/2025 at 8:14 PM, liminal_luke said:

Like so many others, I´m sorry to see Maddie go and wish her well.  I hope she feels supported and safe.  Still, I´m not sure we should accept Maddie´s view of what counts as transphobic wholesale, without applying a critical lens.  Is it transphobic, for instance, to question whether transwomen should play in women´s sports?  (This was one of the main areas of controversy in the thread.)  California governor Gavin Newsom, who is not known for his fascist right-wing views, recently said that transwomen´s participation in women´s sports is "deeply unfair" --  and, as you might imagine, he´s getting hell for that comment in some progressive quarters.  So Gavin´s a transphobe.  Along with Tommy in the thread.  Me too, although I think the question of participation should be decided by individual sporting organizations and not the federal government.  

 

The point is there´s not much wiggle-room to step outside the boundaries of progressive consensus and still be considered a good person.  There´s a meme going around with a picture of an angry man saying "there are 600 genders, but only 2 political positions -- mine and Nazi."  It´s funny because it´s true.  We´re not living in a time when diversity of political views is amply tolerated.  

 

 

Why there is a serious controversy in the USA?   Segregation of players according to physical sizes and capabilities are common.  MMA and boxing are in weight classes.   Football has age classes.   Disable players have their own games.   The male and female segregation was based on same principles.   

 

[doc benway]

14 hours ago, Tommy said:

@doc benway

On the one hand you talk about not identifying with those words "If I am fully open to your words, without feeling the need to grasp at or protect my own beliefs, my spiritual identity if you will, then who is there to take offense?" Then you come up with, "These are genuine feelings and have an important place in my life and our society..."  I wonder how some can compartmentalize their lives so that they are always right? Not saying you are right or wrong.

 

Do you assume that I have perfected my practice and engage in it continuously? I’m flattered but it’s simply not the case. It’s one thing to talk about the effects and mechanism of a spiritual practice and realization and another thing to live it perfectly in every waking, sleeping, dreaming, and dying moment. That takes a lot of practice and dedication.

 

Compartmentalizing has never worked for me as best I can tell. My thoughts and feelings don’t respect any inner boundaries, they arise when they will and I make no effort to segregate them but I have a few options. Sometimes they come and go spontaneously and effortlessly and there is nothing to be done. Sometimes I engage my practice which involves simply being with the thoughts and feelings for as long as is needed until they liberate. Sometimes I choose to act on them and engage with people and situations. 

 

All that said, my journey has often brought me face to face with paradox and contradiction, in me, in others, in spiritual teachings, in science, and in the world in general. I love this quote from the Celtic mystic John O’Donohue:

 

”We need to have greater patience with our sense of inner contradiction in order to allow its different dimensions to come into conversation within us. There is a secret light and vital energy in contradiction. Where is energy, there is life and growth. Your contemplative solitude will allow your contradictions to emerge with clarity and force. If you remain faithful to this energy, you will gradually come to participate in a harmony that lies deeper than any contradiction. This will give you new courage to engage the depth, danger, and darkness of your life.”

 

14 hours ago, Tommy said:

Just trying to educate myself.

 

I don’t claim to know your true intention, I will assume it is pure, but this reminds me of a friend and colleague who hides behind a disclaimer much like this one anytime he wants to ask probing and potentially offensive questions. While your intentions may be very pure and innocent, the effects of our words often take on a life of their own.

 

14 hours ago, Tommy said:

 

Note: I said, "Still, I did believe that a forum was about having conversations. Asking questions and make statements on a reasonable level and reply in the same manner." 

 

Yes, we can have conversations, that’s what we are doing right now. We can and should ask questions and comment on answers and then we need to be prepared to deal with whatever consequences may arise, some of which may be unpredictable and seem to us unwarranted. What seems a reasonable question to you may sound very aggressive or demeaning in the mind of someone else, particularly someone who has been sensitized by circumstances you don’t have a frame of reference to fully understand. We create our reality through the lens of our life experience. Words are powerful and, since we are in the thread regarding transgender Q&A in the context of the OP announcing her departure from the forum, there’s a big difference between worrying about your kid losing a basketball game to a trans female and losing your healthcare, your job, and validity as a human being because of your gender identity. One may ask questions on a reasonable level, full of calm and curiosity and just trying to educate themselves. Another may react to those questions as if their very existence and safety are being threatened. Which is being unreasonable?

[silent thunder]

There was a small village that welcomed many travelers.  It eventually developed a deep sickness, masked in clever word play and pretend.  Saddening.

 

[Tommy]

23 minutes ago, doc benway said:

 

Do you assume that I have perfected my practice and engage in it continuously? I’m flattered but it’s simply not the case. It’s one thing to talk about the effects and mechanism of a spiritual practice and realization and another thing to live it perfectly in every waking, sleeping, dreaming, and dying moment. That takes a lot of practice and dedication.

 

Compartmentalizing has never worked for me as best I can tell. My thoughts and feelings don’t respect any inner boundaries, they arise when they will and I make no effort to segregate them but I have a few options. Sometimes they come and go spontaneously and effortlessly and there is nothing to be done. Sometimes I engage my practice which involves simply being with the thoughts and feelings for as long as is needed until they liberate. Sometimes I choose to act on them and engage with people and situations. 

 

All that said, my journey has often brought me face to face with paradox and contradiction, in me, in others, in spiritual teachings, in science, and in the world in general. I love this quote from the Celtic mystic John O’Donohue:

 

”We need to have greater patience with our sense of inner contradiction in order to allow its different dimensions to come into conversation within us. There is a secret light and vital energy in contradiction. Where is energy, there is life and growth. Your contemplative solitude will allow your contradictions to emerge with clarity and force. If you remain faithful to this energy, you will gradually come to participate in a harmony that lies deeper than any contradiction. This will give you new courage to engage the depth, danger, and darkness of your life.”

 

 

I don’t claim to know your true intention, I will assume it is pure, but this reminds me of a friend and colleague who hides behind a disclaimer much like this one anytime he wants to ask probing and potentially offensive questions. While your intentions may be very pure and innocent, the effects of our words often take on a life of their own.

 

 

Yes, we can have conversations, that’s what we are doing right now. We can and should ask questions and comment on answers and then we need to be prepared to deal with whatever consequences may arise, some of which may be unpredictable and seem to us unwarranted. What seems a reasonable question to you may sound very aggressive or demeaning in the mind of someone else, particularly someone who has been sensitized by circumstances you don’t have a frame of reference to fully understand. We create our reality through the lens of our life experience. Words are powerful and, since we are in the thread regarding transgender Q&A in the context of the OP announcing her departure from the forum, there’s a big difference between worrying about your kid losing a basketball game to a trans female and losing your healthcare, your job, and validity as a human being because of your gender identity. One may ask questions on a reasonable level, full of calm and curiosity and just trying to educate themselves. Another may react to those questions as if their very existence and safety are being threatened. Which is being unreasonable?

Yes, I often take people at their words. Especially when they talk about their practice. It is a fault of mine to trust people. And compartmentalizing is how most people (i believe) deal with paradoxes in their lives. Sort of do as I say and not as I do. We all live and learn.

 

I can be true in my intent and words but how others see those words or actions can be different. Am I then responsible for how other interpret what they see? I understand that questions and statements can be offensive in their nature. So, I do try to take that into account (well I do now, after what recently happened). I did not intend to offend and have offered apologies. Unfortunately, they were take in the spirit of being more offensive than the first statements. I understand that Maddie has feelings and I should have just stop and deleted those words. Doesn't matter who is right or wrong. Just take into account her feelings and remain respectful. Can't undo the harm.

 

I really did believe that the people on this spiritual journey would be more open to discussion and understand the nature of inquiry and statements made from observations. Since the spiritual journey is made up of what we experience, it is often a place where things can become misunderstood. So, a little acceptance or tolerance is needed for people to have a conversation. Reasonable words??

[liminal_luke]

This topic is so fraught with emotion, especially these days, that conversation is difficult.  I respect doc benway´s blunt and honest Fuck-Sports approach.  I also believe that Tommy is sincere and doesn´t wish to offend.  As for myself, I think that my positions on this and other "current events" topics have shocked and dismayed Bums who I care about and whose opinions I value.  It´s something of an unfortunate mess.  While I enjoy thinking about and debating controversial topics, I try to hold my views lightly, acknowledging the limitations of my knowledge and the shortfalls of my virtue.  I hope that those who disagree with things I´ve said will extend me a little grace.  

Edited March 9 by liminal_luke

[forestofclarity]

Mod Note: This was Maddie's thread for transgender Q&A. With Maddie's departure, I see no reason to continue the thread.