Transgender Q&A

[Salvijus]

Just now, Maddie said:

 

My question would be why do you see it as something that needs defending in the first place as opposed to something that just is. 

I accept that identity simply is. Whatever it is. A man, a woman, an alien. I agree. Identity simply is. But how much should we cling to it and make it super important. If all identity is false in the end (according to buddha) 

[blue eyed snake]

1 hour ago, Maddie said:

In Buddhism the idea is to not identify with anything. So trying to make ourselves identify with something such as pure awareness is a type of grasping which is the opposite of what the Buddha taught. The Buddha taught letting go. 

   I don't identify as a woman as the culmination of a goal but simply because that's where I happen to be at the moment. I tried to reject this identity and that did not work for me because it was motivated by control which again isn't letting go.

 

well, the Buddha is much more an authority then poor ol BES is,

 

so that's case closed 

[Salvijus]

4 minutes ago, Salvijus said:

I accept that identity simply is. Whatever it is. A man, a woman, an alien. I agree. Identity simply is. But how much should we cling to it and make it super important. If all identity is false in the end (according to buddha) 

Perhaps I should add where this question is coming from. It's coming because I observe many people fight and trying really hard to prove to everyone they are male or female or something in between. They fight tooth and nail to be accepted as this or that. That's why I want to ask. Is it even important to fight for it, when all identity is ultimately unreal? 

 

I hope this question is still okay. 

Edited April 19 by Salvijus

[blue eyed snake]

1 hour ago, Maddie said:

 

To me personally the idea of identifying with something abstract like "pure awareness" sounds like identifying with "world peace" or "Taylor Swift's guitar". It just doesn't make sense in the real world. Not trying to be mean but it seems like its too abstract to be useful or relatable. 

 

well, I guess that people who are belligerently antitrans ( here  I am thinking of some people on (former ) twitter, not bums, these guys regularly go an ranting ) maybe is that for them it sounds like identifying as Taylor Swifts guitar 🤔 

[Maddie]

20 minutes ago, Salvijus said:

I accept that identity simply is. Whatever it is. A man, a woman, an alien. I agree. Identity simply is. But how much should we cling to it and make it super important. If all identity is false in the end (according to buddha) 

 

If we want to end suffering we shouldn't cling to anything, but I anticipate you saying then why do it. Because there would need to be a self to choose to stop clinging. Since this is not the case and instead of a self there are simply conditioned processes we have to use awareness to gradually see through the clinging. This usually takes time and is a gradual process. To think of it as a conscious choice ironically assumes that there is an identity to choose to not have an identity lol. Geez I hope that makes sense.  

[Salvijus]

2 minutes ago, Maddie said:

 

If we want to end suffering we shouldn't cling to anything, but I anticipate you saying then why do it. Because there would need to be a self to choose to stop clinging. Since this is not the case and instead of a self there are simply conditioned processes we have to use awareness to gradually see through the clinging. This usually takes time and is a gradual process. To think of it as a conscious choice ironically assumes that there is an identity to choose to not have an identity lol. Geez I hope that makes sense.  

I'm actually satisfied with this. Especially the darkened part. And with the whole conversation in general. It was quite a turn around I did not expect haha. 

 

I feel this would be a positive place to wrap things up for me. Ending things on a positive note you know lol. 

[blue eyed snake]

15 minutes ago, Salvijus said:

Perhaps I should add where this question is coming from. It's coming because I observe many people fight and trying really hard to prove to everyone they are male or female or something in between. They fight tooth and nail to be accepted as this or that. That's why I want to ask. Is it even important to fight for it, when all identity is ultimately unreal? 

 

I hope this question is still okay. 

 

well,

 

people just want to be accepted for what they are.

 

I do never like to talk about tings spiritual, all to son it  s hollow words. But during my life I've sort of seen that to get your feet on the spiritual path you first need to have a healthy ego.

A personality that fits, working on trauma's, ( and there are more ways to skin that fish the psychotherapist)

 

ego gets formed by all the things we encounter combined with karmic stuff, only after we've worked through a nice fat bunch of layers and are totally comfortable with our life stories, our ego, only then we can set foot on the path.

when still vehemently defending that may look, from the outside, as unstable.

But one has to realize the enormous amount of backlash some like Maddie gets, in those circumstances it can be a healthy way of getting positioning yourself, she strikes me as an activist.

 

I would never have reached a balanced me, a stable ego, a good healthy sense of "me" without putting my gender in the package.

 

Try to think up the following, I guess you are a male, now you have had to dress up as a girl as a kid, you had to do sewing instead of woodwork at school, you were totally treated like a girl and had to conform to the female role.

 

would  you have developed a stable and happy sense of self?

I guess not

 

only after the ego has developed to a stable and happy baseline is it possible to let go of it, very slowly

 

 

[Maddie]

1 minute ago, Salvijus said:

I'm actually satisfied with this. Especially the darkened part. And with the whole conversation in general. It was quite a turn around I did not expect haha. 

 

I feel this would be a positive place to wrap things up for me. Ending things on a positive note you know lol. 

 

I guess I owe you an apology. I really thought you were trolling me. I do get trolled a lot so I guess it makes me a bit assumptive but that would not be your fault so I hope you accept my apology. 

[Salvijus]

❤️

[Nungali]

23 hours ago, Maddie said:

 

I think we're witnessing some inner Nungali ego dialogue LOL

 

Not just that ... an inner  dialogue   with a lot more than just ego  .... one could even say 'multiple  entities '     ( I only use that term as 'personalities' is lacking  )  .....   some of them dont seem to have much 'personality' .

[Nungali]

6 hours ago, Salvijus said:

 

Please I will try to explain it in the most gentle way i can. Bear with me please. 

 

First i did not dismiss the textbook answer. I actually accepted it. Their definition is that "gender is what you identify with". Okay. I have accepted it. 

 

Now i rised another question. Wouldnt it make more sense to identify with pure awareness rather than male or female? 

 

If you find this question offencive please let me know. Im really trying to ask the question in a most gentle way i can. 

 

If I had a referee  whistle I would blow it now .

 

It seems to me  Salvijus made a relevant point (in the midst of all that kerfuffle ) ' that some ascribe to the belief that spiritually we are neither male or female but  incarnation  chooses a role for us  and to go with that experience we should not try to change that .

 

I had thought that back there somewhere Maddie said .  yeah , but I am not  totally enlightened yet .  Or something like that .

 

Yoy should have accepted that S.  as a an answer to what you where pointing out .,

 

And further to that ; how do we know what a persons path really is ?  Maybe it is to accept what 'life has given them' or maybe it is to find a way to change that . I would suggest such decisions about that stay with the person concerned  and not be projected onto others  choices .

 

Just a thought , if I got things wrong I will hand my whistle in .

Edited April 19 by Nungali

[doc benway]

3 hours ago, blue eyed snake said:

Try to think up the following, I guess you are a male, now you have had to dress up as a girl as a kid, you had to do sewing instead of woodwork at school, you were totally treated like a girl and had to conform to the female role.

 

would  you have developed a stable and happy sense of self?

I guess not

 

Well said!

 

 

[Nungali]

6 hours ago, Maddie said:

 

May I ask you what you identify as? Is there a pure awareness restroom in public I wonder? 🤔

 

No, its in the  LGBTQ PA  restroom .

 

Spoiler

I went into a transgender gender rest room once  and  .....

 

Spoiler

 ... oh no ! Its gonna be one of those terrible politically incorrect Nungali jokes !  

 

......

 

Spoiler

 ... and I noticed there was no toilet .... no hand basin ..... just a few lounge chairs and a bunch of trans people sitting around  chatting  , not being hassled by their relatives  , no one online defending themselves , no one  closely inspecting their facial features and hands, none of them having to explain or defend themselves , no one being judged , no one being asked why they not enlightened   ....   then one of them  looked at their watch, stood up and  "Oh well, rest time over ,  back to the 'real world '  " .

 

 

 

[Nungali]

3 hours ago, Maddie said:

 

I guess I owe you an apology. I really thought you were trolling me. I do get trolled a lot so I guess it makes me a bit assumptive but that would not be your fault so I hope you accept my apology. 

 

I see my refereeing  came in late .     Glad to see a resolve .

 

I was sorta  taking the view that it was not trolling and got a bit out of hand and S got dumped on a bit in an overreaction . Although I chose not to say so   ( I didnt want the same barrage he got  ... well, actually, I dont mind a barrage , but I was worried it would be taken the same way ) ,   so I decided to hold back and see what played out . 

 

You came through !

 

very admirable Maddie !     You 'salvijed' it  

 

and Salvijus .... finally someone who says they are leaving but didnt   came back and got resolve .

[Vajra Fist]

36 minutes ago, Nungali said:

very admirable Maddie !     You 'salvijed' it

 

Can I just please compliment Maddie on how level-headed she's been throughout this thread. How she has been able to explain from a position of patience and repose. 

 

I find it really difficult to discuss critically things I care about in the face of challenge. Least of all things that would be as personal to me as this. So while I learned a lot I didn't know about the transgender experience, it has been this display of emotional maturity that has been the most instructive part of this thread for me. Bravo.

Edited April 19 by Vajra Fist

[liminal_luke]

@Salvijus deserves credit too.  Like some others, I really thought Salvijus was a troll but I was wrong.  Sorry Salvijus!

[surrogate corpse]

when hungry, eat

when thirsty, drink

when tired, sleep

when dysphoric, transition

[Maddie]

1 hour ago, liminal_luke said:

@Salvijus deserves credit too.  Like some others, I really thought Salvijus was a troll but I was wrong.  Sorry Salvijus!

 

I think this just highlights the importance and difficulty of communication. It did not escape my notice that all of the lgbtq+ identifying people assumed I was being trolled and those who did not assume that are not people who have identified as lgbtq+. 

 

It's my assumption that when ones existence as an lgbtq+ person gets challenged regularly it makes one more sensitive to certain keywords or triggers. 

 

Communication is not an easy thing.

[liminal_luke]

Yes, communication is a tricky thing -- particularly on a forum like this where everything is writing and there are no visual or verbal cues.  It´s not surprising that we all get it wrong sometimes.

 

Personally, I don´t feel like my existence as a gay man is challenged.  Or maybe I do and am just not describing the experience the way you do?  Occasionally I´ll avoid coming out to someone (say a new acquintance at a coffeeshop) because I think they might be judgmental and am just not invested enough in the potential relationship to want to bother.  Mostly though I think that that´s something I´m doing to myself.  I could be completely out and probably things would be just fine.  And if someone doesn´t want to talk to me after they learn that I´m gay is that really such a loss?  Probably not.  

 

I do think that it´s harder socially to be trans than gay.  My mom has a gay son, me, and my mom´s partner Skip has a trans daughter.  Skip once confided in my mom that he wished Emily was just gay like me, implying that that would of been easier to deal with.  In another twenty years I think it will be much easier to be trans than it is today.  At least relatively speaking, you are a pioneer.  

 

 

[S:C]

15 hours ago, blue eyed snake said:

only after the ego has developed to a stable and happy baseline is it possible to let go of it, very slowly

interesting…  

 

[Nungali]

22 hours ago, liminal_luke said:

@Salvijus deserves credit too.  Like some others, I really thought Salvijus was a troll but I was wrong.  Sorry Salvijus!

 

 

Apech can come back now .      

[Apech]

9 hours ago, Nungali said:

 

 

Apech can come back now .      

I’m in hiding and can’t be reached.

[blue eyed snake]

His luminous blobness is in hiding, 

hiding or not, but you cannot hide you luminosity.

 

 

 

 

[Nungali]

13 hours ago, Apech said:

I’m in hiding and can’t be reached.

 

Its okay .... you can down from the top of the wardrobe now  .

[Apech]

22 minutes ago, Nungali said:

 

Its okay .... you can down from the top of the wardrobe now  .

yeah right I’ve heard that one before …