Is 'just sitting' a post-enlightment practice?

[Vajra Fist]

I've done a few years of breath meditation. Once you've built a foundation in stabilising the mind, typically in zen you either dive into koan or switch to shikantaza, depending on the teacher or school.

 

I've always found the idea of koan study slightly unappealing. In particular breaking your mind, pushing and sweating only to be constantly rebuffed by the teacher. Certainly it doesn't seem like a practice that could be feasible outside of sesshin.

 

Generally, shikantaza - also called silent illumination in caodong chan - or 'just sitting', appeals a lot to my lazy arse. There's a few dojos near me with teachers in the Nishijima/Kodo Sawaki Soto lineage, and I'm curious to give it a go. 

 

But a lot of Rinzai practitioners are quite scathing of shikantaza. They say its really only a practice that can be safely employed after kensho. That is when it becomes a reflection of the enlightened mind.

 

Prior to that threshold, they say that by sitting without any effort or attempt to cut through delusion, you're effectively just 'stewing in your own hindrances'.

 

Soto teachers say this enlightened mind is already present, and by sitting in this way it naturally emerges.

 

Soto teachers say that there is no enlightenment to seek. They say so because they see seeking after enlightenment as a desire, which itself becomes an impediment to enlightenment. 

 

Whereas Rinzai teachers say that this de-emphasis of the importance of kensho could be a reflection that few if any people attain kensho through this method. 

 

----‐‐‐--‐---‐-------------

 

So what I'm asking is, where do you sit on this? Is shikantaza only something that should be practiced when you're close to kensho, or have already experienced kensho. Or is it a viable path to enlightenment even for beginners?

 

Edited April 13 by Vajra Fist

[snowymountains]

Shikantaza is, in my experience, shown early on, and with time additional instructions are passed on.

 

Actually in the Theravada tradition, the main tool for so-called enlightenment, insight meditation, is somewhat close to the spirit of Shikantaza.

 

By its definition a good technique to observe conscious processes and even some complexes.

 

Two words of caution, it won't go as deep as unconscious processes and if you do open awareness practices only while sitting at the dojo, you won't see a lot of processes because a lot of triggers are simply not there while "just sitting" at a dojo, they're out there in real life during your everyday interactions with your environment.

[Tommy]

On 4/13/2024 at 5:43 PM, Vajra Fist said:

So what I'm asking is, where do you sit on this? Is shikantaza only something that should be practiced when you're close to kensho, or have already experienced kensho. Or is it a viable path to enlightenment even for beginners?

 

Doesn't answering this kind of question require one to have experienced Kensho in order to be able to answer it?

 

I have noticed that while doing beginner's breath meditation that the words "In and Out" sometimes drops out and I am just focused on the breath. But, once I noticed that, I am back to saying the words. It is like a reflexs from becoming alert to the mind wandering or following thoughts. The attention is switched back to the process of watching the breath and saying the words "In and Out" with the breath. I do not know if it is being done right. But, it is what I have chosen to do until I can become effective in quieting the mind and focus my attention.

Edited July 29 by Tommy

[snowymountains]

7 hours ago, Tommy said:

Doesn't answering this kind of question require one to have experienced Kensho in order to be able to answer it?

 

I have noticed that while doing beginner's breath meditation that the words "In and Out" sometimes drops out and I am just focused on the breath. But, once I noticed that, I am back to saying the words. It is like a reflects from becoming alert to the mind wandering or following thoughts. The attention is switched back to the process of watching the breath and saying the words "In and Out" with the breath. I do not know if it is being done right. But, it is what I have chosen to do until I can become effective in quieting the mind and focus my attention.

 

Some degree of concentration is necessary before insight can work as intended and Samatha eg on breath is the way to progress on concentration.

 

Saying the words leaves less room for the mind to scatter, it's a good practice when you start practicing Samatha. Later, you can also count eg out-breaths till 10, then back to 1.

After some practice like that you can drop the counting entirely as the mind won't need verbal assistance to stay focused on the breath.

 

In Theravada this is quantified, a pre-jhana samadhi is the minimum concentration level required before insight can lead to eg so-called stream entry. It doesn't mean that anyone who's reached that samadhi will reach stream entry when they practice insight, it is a necessary condition though.

 

One may start practicing Insight before having reached that samadhi though and that samadhi is reachable fairly soon ( probably less than a year for someone who practices daily ), it's a pre-jhana state.

 

 

[silent thunder]

16 hours ago, Vajra Fist said:

But a lot of Rinzai practitioners are quite scathing of shikantaza. They say its really only a practice that can be safely employed after kensho. That is when it becomes a reflection of the enlightened mind.

 

Prior to that threshold, they say that by sitting without any effort or attempt to cut through delusion, you're effectively just 'stewing in your own hindrances'.

 

Soto teachers say this enlightened mind is already present, and by sitting in this way it naturally emerges.

 

Soto teachers say that there is no enlightenment to seek. They say so because they see seeking after enlightenment as a desire, which itself becomes an impediment to enlightenment. 

 

Whereas Rinzai teachers say that this de-emphasis of the importance of kensho could be a reflection that few if any people attain kensho through this method. 

 

My response is to engage the practice and see what arises for you.

No matter their experience or expectation, what other awareness can determine what will arise for you?

[Tommy]

Doesn't Shikantaza carry with it some caveats? Such as without the crutch of watching breath, the mind can wander more easily? That over time, the attention is easily lost in the midst of ideas and thoughts that arises while sitting with no focus? IDK. It is not an easy practice for me. Probably some will find it as good a method as any? Still, there are plenty of methods available. Guess it depends upon the person?

[Mark Foote]

On 4/13/2024 at 2:43 PM, Vajra Fist said:

I've done a few years of breath meditation. Once you've built a foundation in stabilising the mind, typically in zen you either dive into koan or switch to shikantaza, depending on the teacher or school.

 

I've always found the idea of koan study slightly unappealing. In particular breaking your mind, pushing and sweating only to be constantly rebuffed by the teacher. Certainly it doesn't seem like a practice that could be feasible outside of sesshin.

 

Generally, shikantaza - also called silent illumination in caodong chan - or 'just sitting', appeals a lot to my lazy arse. There's a few dojos near me with teachers in the Nishijima/Kodo Sawaki Soto lineage, and I'm curious to give it a go. 

 

But a lot of Rinzai practitioners are quite scathing of shikantaza. They say its really only a practice that can be safely employed after kensho. That is when it becomes a reflection of the enlightened mind.

 

Prior to that threshold, they say that by sitting without any effort or attempt to cut through delusion, you're effectively just 'stewing in your own hindrances'.

 

Soto teachers say this enlightened mind is already present, and by sitting in this way it naturally emerges.
 

 

 

In one of his lectures, Shunryu Suzuki spoke about the difference between “preparatory practice” and “shikantaza”, or “just sitting”:

 

But usually in counting breathing or following breathing, you feel as if you are doing something, you know– you are following breathing, and you are counting breathing. This is, you know, why counting breathing or following breathing practice is, you know, for us it is some preparation– preparatory practice for shikantaza because for most people it is rather difficult to sit, you know, just to sit. 

(“The Background of Shikantaza”, Shunryu Suzuki; San Francisco, February 22, 1970; transcript from shunryusuzuki.com)

 

Suzuki said that directing attention to the movement of breath (“following breathing… counting breathing”) has the feeling of “doing something”, and that “doing something” makes such practice only preparatory.

 

Although attention can be directed to the movement of breath, necessity in the movement of breath can also direct attention, as I wrote previously:

 

There can… come a moment when the movement of breath necessitates the placement of attention at a certain location in the body, or at a series of locations, with the ability to remain awake as the location of attention shifts retained through the exercise of presence.

 

There’s a frailty in the structure of the lower spine, and the movement of breath can place the point of awareness in such a fashion as to engage a mechanism of support for the spine, often in stages.

 

... Again, a [person], putting away ease… enters and abides in the fourth musing; seated, [one] suffuses [one’s] body with purity by the pureness of [one’s] mind so that there is not one particle of the body that is not pervaded with purity by the pureness of [one’s] mind. 

(AN III 25-28, Pali Text Society III p 18-19, see also MN III Pali Text Society III p 92-93; bracketed material paraphrases original)

 

“Pureness of mind” is what remains when “doing something” ceases. When “doing something” has ceased, and there is “not one particle of the body” that cannot receive the placement of attention, then the placement of attention is free to shift as necessary in the movement of breath.

 

(Shunryu Suzuki on Shikantaza and the Theravadin Stages)
 

 

Returning to your question, Vajra Fist, which I think is an excellent one--I would contend that what Gautama described as the "fourth musing" is shikantaza.  Gautama often described four "musings" followed by "the survey-sign" of the concentration, a kind of overview of the body that followed the fourth musing.  My impression is that he could use the survey-sign to recall the fourth musing as circumstances dictated.

And I would contend that a person who becomes adept at returning to the first musing, and at recalling the fourth musing in a natural rhythm of mindfulness that takes place in the first musing, is generally considered enlightened.

That's not the attainment that marked Gautama's enlightenment, however.  That was Gautama's way of living.  Gautama's enlightenment involved the further deliverances, four concentrations and the final cessation of "doing something" in actions of feeling and perceiving, the actions of the mind.

So to answer your question:  yes, to actually practice shikantaza requires an experience:
 

When the location of attention can shift anywhere in the body as a function of the movement of breath, and the activity of the body in inhalation and exhalation follows solely from the location of attention, there is a feeling of freedom.
 

(What Shunryu Suzuki Actually Said)

 

The difficulty is that most people will lose consciousness before they cede activity to the location of attention–they lose the presence of mind with the placement of attention, because they can’t believe that action in the body is possible without “doing something...”

 

(Shunryu Suzuki on Shikantaza and the Theravadin Stages)

 

but it's not the same as enlightenment.  Passes for enlightenment often enough, though.

 

 

Quote

 

Is shikantaza only something that should be practiced when you're close to kensho, or have already experienced kensho. Or is it a viable path to enlightenment even for beginners?

 

 

 

Here’s Gautama, speaking about intervals of practice that can “develop mindfulness of death acutely”—the intervals are moments that call for a presence of mind with the placement of attention:

 

…whoever develops mindfulness of death, thinking, ‘O, that I might live for the interval that it takes to swallow having chewed up one morsel of food… for the interval that it takes to breathe out after breathing in, or to breathe in after breathing out, that I might attend to the Blessed One’s instructions. I would have accomplished a great deal’ — they are said to dwell heedfully. They develop mindfulness of death acutely…

 

(AN 6.19 PTS: A iii 303 p 218; Maranassati Sutta: Mindfulness of Death (1) tr Thanissaro Bhikkhu; “effluents” rendered as “cankers” in the PTS translation by F. L. Woodward)

 

 

The presence of mind with the free placement of attention is shikantaza, provided there is "one-pointedness"--here’s a picture of Issho Fujita demonstrating “one-pointedness” at the Sonoma Mountain Zen Center:

 

 

 

 

Edited April 15 by Mark Foote

[Mark Foote]

(I apologize for the dupe)

Edited April 15 by Mark Foote

[stirling]

On 4/13/2024 at 2:43 PM, Vajra Fist said:

Soto teachers say this enlightened mind is already present, and by sitting in this way it naturally emerges.

 

Soto teachers say that there is no enlightenment to seek. They say so because they see seeking after enlightenment as a desire, which itself becomes an impediment to enlightenment. 

 

Whereas Rinzai teachers say that this de-emphasis of the importance of kensho could be a reflection that few if any people attain kensho through this method. 

 

----‐‐‐--‐---‐-------------

 

So what I'm asking is, where do you sit on this? Is shikantaza only something that should be practiced when you're close to kensho, or have already experienced kensho. Or is it a viable path to enlightenment even for beginners?

 

Soto Zen teacher in the Shuryu Suzuki lineage here. Sorry if sharing this annoys anybody. 

 

I have practiced since 1990 in the Nyingma/Dzogchen tradition, and for the last 7 years in the Soto Zen tradition. Shikantaza is the same as Dzogchen - resting in enlightened mind. It is sitting without any crutch of a technique, allowing enlightened mind to be as it is, and is therefore the SAME as enlightened mind, only in most people there is no insight into its nature. The Rinzai teachers I am friends with would agree with this summation, only they would simply use the term "zazen" to refer to their meditation. Shikantaza, to me is a more specific and detailed assessment of what it means. 

 

I started sitting in Dzogchen at the age of 23 and it has been my primary practice until now. I was introduced to the non-dual "nature of mind"/beginner's mind/buddha nature at that time, and became increasingly better at this meditation until it "stuck", and a moment of complete non-dual insight opened everything up almost 10 years ago. Since that point, it has become a permanent perspective, supplanting the previous frame of duality permanently. Now mind is ALWAYS in shikantaza/dzogchen. IF you can practice by resting the mind in it's enlightened (actual) nature, I would do so as often as I possibly could knowing what I do now. It IS a very direct path to enlightenment for those that are able to see the non-dual nature, and have some faith in what it is. 

 

ALL of my 7 or so teachers (and their teachers) sat this way and realized the nature of things. It requires giving up on results, and the belief in agency,  and requires a faith in the practice that comes from seeing that even BEFORE awakening it is transformative. 

 

Feel free to message me if you have any questions. 

[stirling]

On 4/13/2024 at 3:32 PM, snowymountains said:

Two words of caution, it won't go as deep as unconscious processes and if you do open awareness practices only while sitting at the dojo, you won't see a lot of processes because a lot of triggers are simply not there while "just sitting" at a dojo, they're out there in real life during your everyday interactions with your environment.

 

Whether you want to deal with them or not, meditation WILL absolutely dig up ALL of your unprocessed mental garbage. The spaciousness of "open awareness" meditation practices such as shikantaza create space for them to come up. If you go on retreat you are guaranteed to see at least ONE person suddenly burst into tears on the meditation cushion for this reason. These stories are actually the fodder for insight. In Buddhism we call them "samskaras" or "shankaras".

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samskara_(Indian_philosophy)#:~:text=Saṃskāra or Saṅkhāra in Buddhism,Saṅkhāra) rather than eliminate them.

 

Samskaras are mental imprints you carry around with you that are "unfinished business". In Buddhism it isn't necessary to have them make sense, or understand the underlying story of them that you have told yourself, but rather to allow them to come up in consciousness, and leave consciousness (arise and pass away) without telling their story over and over again. Some people will need both counseling AND this approach to process the most difficult amongst them. The intention isn't to deny them, but rather to have them become possible to experience without mental residue in the body/mind (namarupa). 

 

Samskaras are "obsurations", like dirt on a lense, to seeing the reality of how things are. They are stories we tell ourselves about how things really are that are biased and limited, and get in the way. The more of them we are able to clear, the more likely we are to have the "accident" of suddenly seeing through them entirely and deeply into the duality of reality. 

[stirling]

2 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

Returning to your question, Vajra Fist, which I think is an excellent one--I would contend that what Gautama described as the "fourth musing" is shikantaza.  Gautama often described four "musings" followed by "the survey-sign" of the concentration, a kind of overview of the body that followed the fourth musing.  My impression is that he could use the survey-sign to recall the fourth musing as circumstances dictated.

And I would contend that a person who becomes adept at returning to the first musing, and at recalling the fourth musing in a natural rhythm of mindfulness that takes place in the first musing, is generally considered enlightened.

That's not the attainment that marked Gautama's enlightenment, however.  That was Gautama's way of living.  Gautama's enlightenment involved the further deliverances, four concentrations and the final cessation of "doing something" in actions of feeling and perceiving, the actions of the mind.

 

The fourth "musing" refers to fourth jhana, which is where mind becomes still. This is the gateway to emptiness. While this is where shikantaza begins, it extends easily into formlessness (jhanas 5 - 8), and in most sits will pass back and forth over these territories. 

 

Any enlightened "being" can allow the mind to become entirely still at any time. The jhanas are valuable because an unenlightened practitioner can get a taste of what formless mind (in various progressively deeper flavors) is like in their meditation practice and become familiar with them TO A DEGREE. The enlightened mind is predisposed to naturally be present in the formless, at one depth or another, at all times. 

 

Guatama (and all other countless enlightened beings) would naturally experience "non-meditation" after 4th path (no-self) where the mind is always formless and requires no effort to be as it naturally is. 

 

[stirling]

15 hours ago, Tommy said:

Doesn't Shikantaza carry with it some caveats? Such as without the crutch of watching breath, the mind can wander more easily? That over time, the attention is easily lost in the midst of ideas and thoughts that arises while sitting with no focus? IDK. It is not an easy practice for me. Probably some will find it as good a method as any? Still, there are plenty of methods available. Guess it depends upon the person?

 

Students are often taught to recognize the "nature of mind" and then see if they can naturally rest in it as a meditation right off the bat. If you can't, you'll be taught something like watching the breath, which you would do UNTIL you notice that sometimes the crutch of the meditation "method" drops away, and that there are moments at a time of quiet awareness appearing. From then on, most students are taught to notice the quiet awareness and see if they can notice and then rest in it. Success depends on the acuity and dedication of the student. 

 

The most direct path is this dropping the method and just resting in the "natural state" of open awareness, from a Dzogchen/Zen perspective.

[snowymountains]

1 hour ago, stirling said:

 

Whether you want to deal with them or not, meditation WILL absolutely dig up ALL of your unprocessed mental garbage. The spaciousness of "open awareness" meditation practices such as shikantaza create space for them to come up. If you go on retreat you are guaranteed to see at least ONE person suddenly burst into tears on the meditation cushion for this reason. These stories are actually the fodder for insight. In Buddhism we call them "samskaras" or "shankaras".

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samskara_(Indian_philosophy)#:~:text=Saṃskāra or Saṅkhāra in Buddhism,Saṅkhāra) rather than eliminate them.

 

Samskaras are mental imprints you carry around with you that are "unfinished business". In Buddhism it isn't necessary to have them make sense, or understand the underlying story of them that you have told yourself, but rather to allow them to come up in consciousness, and leave consciousness (arise and pass away) without telling their story over and over again. Some people will need both counseling AND this approach to process the most difficult amongst them. The intention isn't to deny them, but rather to have them become possible to experience without mental residue in the body/mind (namarupa). 

 

Samskaras are "obsurations", like dirt on a lense, to seeing the reality of how things are. They are stories we tell ourselves about how things really are that are biased and limited, and get in the way. The more of them we are able to clear, the more likely we are to have the "accident" of suddenly seeing through them entirely and deeply into the duality of reality. 

 

Shikantaza can't go as deep, it cannot and will not touch automatic reactions nor go deep into the unconscious, it simply lacks the tools for accessing these, nevermind working on them. Only therapy can do that.

Actually meditation practice is one of the most common means of avoidance for doing the deep work.

 

Shikantaza is a very good practice, I do it myself, but it should not be advertised for doing things it can't.

[johndoe2012]

5 hours ago, snowymountains said:

 

Shikantaza can't go as deep, it cannot and will not touch automatic reactions nor go deep into the unconscious, it simply lacks the tools for accessing these, nevermind working on them. Only therapy can do that.

Actually meditation practice is one of the most common means of avoidance for doing the deep work.

 

Shikantaza is a very good practice, I do it myself, but it should not be advertised for doing things it can't.

 

Not only therapy, but many other methods, eg

 

Energy healing 

Kiloby inquiries 

Methods like Core Transformation, Sedona Method, Release Technique

Etc etc. 

 

Just sitting is not enough to release unconscious stuff.

Scott Kiloby mentioned in one of his talks that the reason people fail to recognize the nature of mind is due to trauma which fires automatic reactions that cloud the system. 

 

[silent thunder]

10 hours ago, snowymountains said:

 

Shikantaza can't go as deep, it cannot and will not touch automatic reactions nor go deep into the unconscious, it simply lacks the tools for accessing these, nevermind working on them. Only therapy can do that.

Actually meditation practice is one of the most common means of avoidance for doing the deep work.

 

Shikantaza is a very good practice, I do it myself, but it should not be advertised for doing things it can't.

Seems a rather broad proclamation of absolute certainty when your experience is limited to your own awareness and the hearsay of teachers you believe.

 

My wife's experience runs counter to your claim of cannot and will not, so sharing this for some perspective.

Edited April 15 by silent thunder
Two grammar goblins

[Mark Foote]

On 4/14/2024 at 8:12 AM, Tommy said:

 

Doesn't Shikantaza carry with it some caveats? Such as without the crutch of watching breath, the mind can wander more easily? That over time, the attention is easily lost in the midst of ideas and thoughts that arises while sitting with no focus? IDK. It is not an easy practice for me. Probably some will find it as good a method as any? Still, there are plenty of methods available. Guess it depends upon the person?

 

 

 

When I sit, I look for an experience of the placement of attention out of necessity.  That necessity can come out of the breath, or out of a particular frailty in the structure of the lower spine in the movement of breath, or even from somewhere beyond the boundaries of the senses.  Essentially, I am turning the light to look at the placement of awareness out of necessity, particularly as a sense of gravity fines the location of awareness to a point (a point that can shift and move).

 

Regarding the mind--here's something from a post on my own site, entitled "What Shunryu Suzuki Actually Said":

 

So, when you practice zazen, your mind should be concentrated in your breathing and this kind of activity is the fundamental activity of the universal being. If so, how you should use your mind is quite clear. Without this experience, or this practice, it is impossible to attain the absolute freedom.

 

(“Thursday Morning Lectures”, November 4th 1965, Los Altos; emphasis added)

 

 

The mind is “concentrated in the breathing” when the movement of breath necessitates the placement of attention. If the presence of mind continues the placement of attention by the movement of breath, then the role of the mind is clear–that’s the way I read the transcript.

 

Suzuki ended his lecture by asserting that “without this experience, or this practice, it is impossible to attain the absolute freedom”. Gautama the Buddha also mentioned freedom, in the context of “the ceasing of action”:

 

And what… is the ceasing of action? That ceasing of action by body, speech, and mind, by which one contacts freedom,–that is called ‘the ceasing of action’.

 

(SN IV 145, Pali Text Society IV pg 85)

;lllllllll

 

The action that could be expected to cease was a particular kind of action, the action of “determinate thought”:

 

… I say that determinate thought is action. When one determines, one acts by deed, word, or thought.

 

(AN III 415, Pali Text Society Vol III pg 294)

 

 

I wrote about the “ceasing of action”... :

 

A central theme of Gautama’s teaching was the cessation of “determinate thought” in action, meaning the cessation of the exercise of will or volition in action. A cessation of the exercise of will could be attained, said Gautama, through the induction of various successive states of concentration. As to the initial induction of concentration, Gautama declared that “making self-surrender the object of thought, one lays hold of concentration, one lays hold of one-pointedness of mind”.

 

I begin with making the surrender of volition in activity related to the movement of breath the object of thought. For me, that necessitates thought applied and sustained with regard to relaxation of the activity of the body, with regard to the exercise of calm in the stretch of ligaments, with regard to the detachment of mind, and with regard to the presence of mind. I find that a presence of mind from one breath to the next can precipitate “one-pointedness of mind”, but laying hold of “one-pointedness of mind” requires a surrender of willful activity in the body much like falling asleep.

 

(Response)

 

 

When the location of attention can shift anywhere in the body as a function of the movement of breath, and the activity of the body in inhalation and exhalation follows solely from the location of attention, there is a feeling of freedom.

 

 

 

[stirling]

7 hours ago, snowymountains said:

Shikantaza can't go as deep, it cannot and will not touch automatic reactions nor go deep into the unconscious, it simply lacks the tools for accessing these, nevermind working on them. Only therapy can do that.

Actually meditation practice is one of the most common means of avoidance for doing the deep work.

 

Shikantaza is a very good practice, I do it myself, but it should not be advertised for doing things it can't.

 

Shikantaza isn't intended as a tool for working with sankharas/obscurations/mental problems. It merely opens up the space to process them. Our attachments, aversions, personal stories and beliefs arise naturally moment to moment and don't need encouragement, they just require our attention, and non-grasping. Even small day-to-day events often link us to much deeper traumas; pulling at these threads begins to unravel them. Meditation done to avoid thoughts and feelings will fail. If anything, meditation makes the onslaught of our difficult thoughts and feelings worse, though you might get lucky if your only sit for 15 or 20 minutes a day, which isn't really enough for profound transformation. 

 

As you are probably aware, the buddha didn't practice because it made him more effective at work.  The Four Noble Truths make a bold claim: That there is a way to end suffering. Those who practice diligently begin to see reductions in suffering in weeks. The suffering in question is the "second arrow", or mental story of suffering that is experienced - the specific thing Buddhist practice intends to treat.

 

Quote

"Now, the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones, when touched with a feeling of pain, does not sorrow, grieve, or lament, does not beat his breast or become distraught. So he feels one pain: physical, but not mental. Just as if they were to shoot a man with an arrow and, right afterward, did not shoot him with another one, so that he would feel the pain of only one arrow. In the same way, when touched with a feeling of pain, the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones does not sorrow, grieve, or lament, does not beat his breast or become distraught. He feels one pain: physical, but not mental. - Buddha, Sallatha Sutta: The Arrow

 

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn36/sn36.006.than.html

 

Does Buddhism do what it says on the tin? This is for sincere, dedicated practitioners who have finally had enough of suffering or wish to understand the true nature of "mind".

[stirling]

2 hours ago, johndoe2012 said:

Scott Kiloby mentioned in one of his talks that the reason people fail to recognize the nature of mind is due to trauma which fires automatic reactions that cloud the system. 

 

Exactly. Untangling our ancient twisted karma is at least half of what Buddhist practice is about. 

[liminal_luke]

I can confirm that meditation can indeed bring up deeply buried impulses and feelings.  It´s terrible that way.

[snowymountains]

7 minutes ago, stirling said:

 

Shikantaza isn't intended as a tool for working with sankharas/obscurations/mental problems. It merely opens up the space to process them. Our attachments, aversions, personal stories and beliefs arise naturally moment to moment and don't need encouragement, they just require our attention, and non-grasping. Even small day-to-day events often link us to much deeper traumas; pulling at these threads begins to unravel them. Meditation done to avoid thoughts and feelings will fail. If anything, meditation makes the onslaught of our difficult thoughts and feelings worse, though you might get lucky if your only sit for 15 or 20 minutes a day, which isn't really enough for profound transformation. 

 

As you are probably aware, the buddha didn't practice because it made him more effective at work.  The Four Noble Truths make a bold claim: That there is a way to end suffering. Those who practice diligently begin to see reductions in suffering in weeks. The suffering in question is the "second arrow", or mental story of suffering that is experienced - the specific thing Buddhist practice intends to treat.

 

 

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn36/sn36.006.than.html

 

Does Buddhism do what it says on the tin? This is for sincere, dedicated practitioners who have finally had enough of suffering or wish to understand the true nature of "mind".

 

The thing is that it opens space to some of the unconscious objects ( not all, there's a lot it won't ) but bringing them to consciousness is only one of the steps, and for the rest of the steps the approaches are very incomplete . 

 

Cognitive methods like the second arrow may be good in some cases, some people would even say in a lot of cases, in other cases not so much.

Cognitive methods also do not solve everything and also they're not the right tool for all people.

 

In the general case, meditation is something good, dokusan is good, Buddhist cognitive methods are good, reading the Stoics is also good for cognitive methods btw.

 

But even within the scope of self-improvement (forget e.g. trauma) there is important stuff missing there.

 

So it's about distinguishing if some practices are good practices and whether their scope and effectiveness is oversold.

They are good practices, I'd even say for some people they're very good, but they also have a more limited scope than advertised.

[snowymountains]

19 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

I can confirm that meditation can indeed bring up deeply buried impulses and feelings.  It´s terrible that way.

 

Yes it can, some, but not all.

Also for the ones it brings to the surface, then there's no proper toolset on what to do with them.

[liminal_luke]

38 minutes ago, snowymountains said:

 

Yes it can, some, but not all.

 

 

I know the "some" part from my own experience.  How do you know the "not all"?  Seems to me that would be a difficult thing to know with confidence because how would we know what would happen if we just kept going.

[Mark Foote]

1 hour ago, stirling said:

 

Does Buddhism do what it says on the tin? 
 

 

 

Love it, thanks stirling!

 

 

[Mark Foote]

50 minutes ago, snowymountains said:

 

... dokusan is good...
 

 

My understanding is that dokusan is a rare occurrence in Soto Zen in Japan.
 

 

50 minutes ago, snowymountains said:

 

... a more limited scope than advertised.
 

 

 

On the tin? 

[snowymountains]

6 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

 

I know the "some" part from my own experience.  How do you know the "not all"?  Seems to me that would be a difficult thing to know with confidence because how would we know what would happen if we just kept going.

 

We can know it, the techniques used for this job are structurally different and they're much more efficient at that.

 

But in practical terms, eg observe your self when you interact with your environment, moments of anger, sadness, happiness are gold, you'll find out a lot that you haven't by sitting at the dojo, simply because the triggers were not there.

So insight in "real life" will show you a lot more than insight at the dojo.

 

The part which remains open though is what to do with all that once it's uncovered.

Using a cognitive approach for some of that, like the two arrows our friend above mentioned is fine, but not for all and it's not the whole story.

 

It also depends on one's goals, if we define "self improvement" as becoming free from all conditioning ( a bit of an exaggeration, completely free is simply impossible), then one needs to pick the tools for that job.

 

Also I don't want to sound like preaching some arcane art, because I don't, but this may take decades of continuous work.

It's also why eg therapists are ( at least should be ) in perma-therapy, and have tried (as clients themselves) all sorts of therapy. Because all sorts of triggers appear and unless they actively remove conditioning they can't be good at entering the client's frame of reference.

 

That said, yes shikantaza is a very good practice, insight meditation is very a very good practice.

It's just that they're good at what they can do.