Nathan Brine

[Taoist Texts]

53 minutes ago, snowymountains said:

In Buddhism the signs are "public domain", in the Suttas

well yes and no. This signs are available to the public, but they are not understandable to the public, only to those who experienced the signs himself

55 minutes ago, snowymountains said:

someone who progressed without knowing the keywords would be able to describe it in their own words and it would be pretty obvious what it is.

yes obvious, only to those who experienced the same progress himself

56 minutes ago, snowymountains said:

In Taoism, are the signs described in texts or they're described exclusively via oral transmission?

oral transmission as separate from texts  and comprising what is lacking in texts does not exist.  what does exist is oral explanation of texts. So the answer is no, all the signs are described in texts.  That said, some small number of the signs is described in code or mentioned rarely.

 

[snowymountains]

1 hour ago, Taoist Texts said:

well yes and no. This signs are available to the public, but they are not understandable to the public, only to those who experienced the signs himself

yes obvious, only to those who experienced the same progress himself

oral transmission as separate from texts  and comprising what is lacking in texts does not exist.  what does exist is oral explanation of texts. So the answer is no, all the signs are described in texts.  That said, some small number of the signs is described in code or mentioned rarely.

 

 

Thanks TT.

 

Yes, re the Buddhist ones, experiences are quite specific and reading a verbal description would be the same as trying to describe the sensation of eg a rollercoaster, impossible to really understand unless someone rides a rollercoaster.

 

Are the Daoist signs different to the Buddhist ones? Intuitively I'd expect some overlap to be there, after all Samatha is Samatha and insight is insight.

Which texts describe the Taoist signs?

[Nintendao]

On 4/19/2024 at 6:58 PM, Taoist Texts said:

 

 

so is is true what they say about 牢固封闭?

 

 

[Taoist Texts]

5 hours ago, Nintendao said:

so is is true what they say about 牢固封闭?

yes, totally true;)

7 hours ago, snowymountains said:

Are the Daoist signs different to the Buddhist ones?

not so much different as covering the different aspects of the same psychosomatic phenomena. Buddism is concerned with the psycho part, while  Daosim with the somatic part

7 hours ago, snowymountains said:

Which texts describe the Taoist signs?

literally every one. E. g.

6. Signs of Verification of Turning Around the Light

http://thesecretofthegoldenflower.com/ch6.html

or 

https://www.poetry-chaikhana.com/Poets/L/LuTungPin/HundredChara/index.html

 

 

[Taomeow]

On 4/19/2024 at 11:57 AM, Taoist Texts said:

of course you did , and you were. Thank you very much. Who can forget the curious case of the travelling liver? Not me.

 

Not mentioned in your proposed list of verifiable signs of having neidan, eh?  No "red blood becomes milk?"  No growing seven feet tall?  No turning into a Buddha who is supposed to be the real verifiable taoist cultivator with neidan?  Dismissed!  

 

You seem to think that either I'm lying, or I fell for some trick.  If I were lying, I'd come up with something other than a phenomenon I never encountered as any sign of anything, I'd go with something more mainstream, like setting stuff on fire with one's bare hands or healing someone's hump or limp, and so on.  And if it was some trick, I can't for the life of me imagine how it could be done -- one can hide a rabbit in a top hat but in one's own torso?..  ??  

 

On 4/19/2024 at 11:57 AM, Taoist Texts said:

Or the senior citizen who on this forum claimed to deflect a hurricane with magic.

 

Everybody who has accomplished anything in cultivation is a senior citizen.  This is not a young ageist's game -- they all are subconsciously convinced they are immortal by default, and forever young at that -- and someone who has reached an age beyond their reach so far is automatically disqualified.  Whereas their real cultivation effort should be focused on becoming a senior citizen, for starters.  Nothing is guaranteed to anyone.  Real taoist cultivation is about "living out one's human years" to the fullest -- WLP teaches just that, offering the students to set a simple goal for starters, to think of themselves as naturally equipped to live a very long healthy life, take it from there.   

 

As for how to deflect a hurricane with magic, that's not WLP, that's ayahuasca's teachings, in my humble case, and I think I said clearly at the time that I've no way of knowing whether it was a coincidence.  But that's what she trained me to do, for reasons I didn't understand at the time at all.  I wanted something entirely different from her, but it was what it was. 

 

Those are all sort of self-defense moves, wait until I'm on the offensive...  if the spirit so moves me. 

  

[Taoist Texts]

1 hour ago, Taomeow said:

You seem to think that either I'm lying, or I fell for some trick. 

@TaomeowI did not say anything like that.  And  take my word, i dont think that either.  I only mentioned the liver concretely to show that I pay attention to what you say. So, if we had some crossed wires, I apologize , please forgive me kindly.

1 hour ago, Taomeow said:

As for how to deflect a hurricane with magic, that's not WLP, that's ayahuasca's teachings, in my humble case, and I think I said clearly at the time that I've no way of knowing whether it was a coincidence.

this post of yours I dont remember, I was not referring to you, there was a gent who claimed that

1 hour ago, Taomeow said:

Whereas their real cultivation effort should be focused on becoming a senior citizen, for starters.

Could not put it better myself, thats why all these young western guys peddling the fountain of youth make me laugh

1 hour ago, Taomeow said:

Not mentioned in your proposed list of verifiable signs

interestingly 'hitting with the liver' is mentioned in my authoritative sources on Xingyiquan, so what you related is doable, I have no doubts about that. My take it that the lump travelling under the skin was not the liver itself, but a lump  of the liver qi travelling along the liver meridian.

1 hour ago, Taomeow said:

wait until I'm on the offensive

you cannot see it but i am waving a white flag right now. Or may be you can?;)

Edited April 22 by Taoist Texts

[Taomeow]

 

37 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

@TaomeowI did not say anything like that.  And  take my word, i dont think that either.  I only mentioned the liver concretely to show that I pay attention to what you say. So, if we had some crossed wires, I apologize , please forgive me kindly.

 

Thank  you.  I thought you were being sarcastic -- my mistake, but you often are, so...  Anyway, all is forgiven and I'm flattered by your paying attention to my meows.    

 

37 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

this post of yours I dont remember, I was not referring to you, there was a gent who claimed that

 

That's the problem with claims -- too many boys cry too many wolves.  In my case -- and I don't even remember if I told the story here, must have, I was bursting with this desire to share things ayahuasca for a while but not finding anywhere near adequate words to do it -- but I tried.  I talked to everyone about that stuff for a while, even strangers...  this only happened to me once before, after my twins were born -- I felt the world needed to know what it was like. Ha!  I'm a lot more restrained now about whatever might shake me to the core on impact.   

 

But, briefly about what I was referring to.  SHE spent 8 hours straight teaching me to control the rainfall, of all things.  I never thought it would ever be used after that night, but there was no arguing with her, and while it was going on I sort of got the knack of it, turning the rainstorm in the rain forest on and off many times.  By the end of the lesson, it was as easy as turning your shower on and off in your bathroom.  And then some time later I had to travel to New York (an unplanned and unexpected necessity trip) and right after I arrived, there was this hurricane Irene warning, a big deal it was supposed to be, they ordered mandatory evacuation for 2.5 million people and issued dire warning for the rest.  The night it was to make landfall, I stood outside, remembering and applying stuff ayahuasca taught me.  The hurricane totally fizzled out compared to what was predicted/expected.  I'll never know if I played a part. All I know is, it seemed like that was precisely what she taught me that stuff for.  

 

37 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

interestingly 'hitting with the liver' is mentioned in my authoritative sources on Xingyiquan, so what you related is doable, I have no doubts about that. My take it that the lump travelling under the skin was not the liver itself, but a lump  of the liver qi travelling along the liver meridian.

 

Interesting.  WLP's rationale was, it was for not letting an attacker hit you in the liver should they aim a strike there.  He taught us how to move qi wuxing style between five organs first, and then how to increase mobility of the organs themselves.  He asserted it's a modern, and abnormal, thing for internal organs to be "stuck" and "glued," similar to (but harder to tackle than) any other manifestation of stiffening, hardening, loss of freedom of movement and control of one's mobility range.  

[Elysium]

19 hours ago, Taomeow said:

Whereas their real cultivation effort should be focused on becoming a senior citizen, for starters.  Nothing is guaranteed to anyone.  Real taoist cultivation is about "living out one's human years" to the fullest -- WLP teaches just that, offering the students to set a simple goal for starters, to think of themselves as naturally equipped to live a very long healthy life, take it from there

Kind of like Maslows Pyramid then? Where you get the survival needs first, and then stability and so on, self actualization coming last? Or am I missing the nuance in this?

Edited April 23 by Elysium

[Taomeow]

3 minutes ago, Elysium said:

Kind of like Maslows Pyramid then? Where you get the survival needs first, and then stability and so on, self actualization coming last? Or am I missing the nuance if this?

 

Yes, sort of -- though it's not a pyramid in taoism, more like a spectrum...  or a bell curve.  Or even a sine wave.

 

Self-actualization and survival needs are not as opposed in "classical" taoism as they are in other traditions.  As Hong Junsheng (one of the great masters in Chen style taiji) once put it, "the meaning of life" is a very Western concept which he had a hard time wrapping his mind around on first exposure.  I suspect self-actualization in Maslow's sense is a phenomenon of neurotic/traumatic origins as well...  but my mind has been skewed in a somewhat barbaric fashion for quite some time, so don't take my word for it.       

[RobB]

Thanks all. I'm not sure if I'm better informed but it's been an interesting read. Just another day on the internet 

[Sahaja]

On 4/19/2024 at 11:57 AM, Taoist Texts said:

of course you did , and you were. Thank you very much. Who can forget the curious case of the travelling liver? Not me.

or this. Or the senior citizen who on this forum claimed to deflect a hurricane with magic. If an eyewitness says it happened then it happened. No argument there, i am totally convinced that it did happen for you good folk. Unfortuntely, it did not not happen in my reality which is my loss;)

 

Going back to the OP, what WLP and Brine purport to teach is immortality (neidan in western parlance) . Its a weird way to make a living but hey, not the weirdest one. Now when a teacher teaches immortality, is either he is  an immortal already - then he knows what he teaches. Or he is not immortal yet - then he is  a fraud. And being immortal or not starts from having a little thing called neidan, or the elixir. So per the OP whoever is interested in Brine  just gotta ask him: "Sifu with all due respect, you teach neidan, so....do you have the neidan? " Then watch the shuffle dance begin.

Only a Xian can teach ? Wow, thats quite a steep hurdle. 

Does this mean  only winners of  Wimbledon can teach one anything about tennis? The tennis lessons must be quite expensive. 

 

 

 

 

 

[Neirong]

6 hours ago, Sahaja said:

Only a Xian can teach ? Wow, thats quite a steep hurdle. 

Does this mean  only winners of  Wimbledon can teach one anything about tennis? The tennis lessons must be quite expensive. 

 

It is more of a problem of dishonest claims they make during teaching to sell/push their info-business product to the masses. Even worse, they get knowledge from public books/sources and resell it as if their name has copyright on the tradition itself.

 

If people would sell Qigong classes casually for what it is. But, no they have to add that energy cures cancer/all kinds of diseases and grants enlightenment and immortality.

 

It is the same as saying that burnt paper is extremely valuable resource because it is literally same as diamond. Indeed, same carbon material, but not nearly the same quality.

 

I mean seriously, there are people around who think that simple body moves and simple qigong can turn you into an immortal, enlightened being and cure all ailments. Fragrant qigong? How much more delusional can it get?

 

Self-development is not in the same dimension as annunaki, homeopathy, astrology, flat earth, and ctulhu. People who believe any of that stuff are pretty much hopeless cases to teach.

 

6 hours ago, Sahaja said:

Now when a teacher teaches immortality, is either he is  an immortal already - then he knows what he teaches. Or he is not immortal yet - then he is  a fraud. And being immortal or not starts from having a little thing called neidan, or the elixir.

How exactly would elixir make you immortal?

@Taoist Texts what kind of immortality do you expect from "internal alchemy" practices?

[snowymountains]

12 hours ago, Taomeow said:

 

Yes, sort of -- though it's not a pyramid in taoism, more like a spectrum...  or a bell curve.  Or even a sine wave.

 

Self-actualization and survival needs are not as opposed in "classical" taoism as they are in other traditions.  As Hong Junsheng (one of the great masters in Chen style taiji) once put it, "the meaning of life" is a very Western concept which he had a hard time wrapping his mind around on first exposure.  I suspect self-actualization in Maslow's sense is a phenomenon of neurotic/traumatic origins as well...  but my mind has been skewed in a somewhat barbaric fashion for quite some time, so don't take my word for it.       

 

The pyramid is more of a practical statement, if eg someone is hungry and doesn't have food, they'll focus on getting food, only then will they move to other needs. One way to see it is that it's harder to work on the upper parts of the pyramid unless the lower ones have been taken care of at a reasonable level. So it's effectively a statement on how people tend to prioretise.

 

"Living to the fullest" that you mentioned before needs some context, Maslow's pyramid does not provide the full context for this, without engaging in a long post at the cost of exactness, indeed not living life to the fullest according to one's true needs may cause neurosis ( and even psychosis ).

Edited April 23 by snowymountains

[Taoist Texts]

7 hours ago, Sahaja said:

Only a Xian can teach ? Wow, thats quite a steep hurdle. 

Yes only a Xian can teach Xian-hood. Either there is a hurdle or there is larping. To each his own, its a free country

7 hours ago, Sahaja said:

Does this mean  only winners of  Wimbledon can teach one anything about tennis?

There once was a teacher of tennis

Who charged the fools pretty pennies

Never won Wimbledon

Nor a racket he owned

Since he was  such a larping genius

 

12 hours ago, Taomeow said:

I'll never know if I played a part. All I know is, it seemed like that was precisely what she taught me that stuff for.  

Thanks for the story. The principle of magic is synchronicity which in turns works like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Observer_effect_(physics)

meaning we must not know if it us who do the magic or things just happen on their own. If the magician is sure it is him then he deludes himself.

1 hour ago, Neirong said:

@Taoist Texts what kind of immortality do you expect from "internal alchemy" practices?

first physical then spiritual

1 hour ago, Neirong said:

How exactly would elixir make you immortal?

the exact mechanism is secret, but the general answer is : by going back to the Immortal Source

Edited April 23 by Taoist Texts

[snowymountains]

15 hours ago, Taomeow said:

As for how to deflect a hurricane with magic, that's not WLP, that's ayahuasca's teachings, in my humble case, and I think I said clearly at the time that I've no way of knowing whether it was a coincidence. 

 

That's the problem with synchronicities, it could always just be a coincidence, there's no way to validate that it wasn't, not even in principle.

There's also no way to disprove that synchronicities may in principle exist as they're meant to a non-causal so eg physics would not find a linkage by definition.

 

A friend keeps a notebook of his synchronicities, I don't enter a long analysis of what could be perceived as a synchronicity. There are + & - in each approach.

He does look however into great depth if there is any possible causal pattern at play and also if it was just his unconscious signaling him something he hadn't become consciously aware of ( which, also means he has centered his personal practice around dreamwork, active imagination etc ).

 

For me this sort exercise is just too time consuming and one has to consider what's the benefit (and minuses) to spending that time in this way compared to taking a long walk in the forest.

I mean, let's say that after doing all that it turns out that X was a synchronicity, so what, what really changes.. is it so important.. ?

Edited April 23 by snowymountains

[snowymountains]

30 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

The principle of magic is synchronicity which in turns works like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Observer_effect_(physics)

This is what Pauli and Jung were trying to prove without success though, so it's not clear if the observer effect is related to synchronicities.

 

30 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

meaning we must not know if it us who do the magic or things just happen on their own

which is impossible to know, synchronicities can almost never be distinguished from unlikely coincidences. It can always be a story our minds made to explain a coincidence.

 

I'm not saying synchronicities do not exist, as they're also impossible to disprove. But given the above, how much of our time are they worth...

Edited April 23 by snowymountains

[Apech]

49 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

Yes only a Xian can teach Xian-hood. Either there is a hurdle or there is larping. To each his own, its a free country

There once was a teacher of tennis

Who charged the fools pretty pennies

Never won Wimbledon

Nor a racket he owned

Since he was  such a larping genius

 

Thanks for the story. The principle of magic is synchronicity which in turns works like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Observer_effect_(physics)

meaning we must not know if it us who do the magic or things just happen on their own. If the magician is sure it is him then he deludes himself.

first physical then spiritual

the exact mechanism is secret, but the general answer is : by going back to the Immortal Source

If you are immortal could you promise never to rhyme Wimbledon and owned again…ever?

[Taoist Texts]

25 minutes ago, snowymountains said:

which is impossible to know, synchronicities can almost never be distinguished from unlikely coincidences.

not sure if you want me reply but here goes;)

it is only impossible to know because we did not define the term 'synchronicity' - once we define it properly, then it is quite possible.

7 minutes ago, Apech said:

If you are immortal could you promise never to rhyme Wimbledon and owned again…ever?

of course i can, because it is a rhyme for the ages

[snowymountains]

6 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

not sure if you want me reply but here goes;)

it is only impossible to know because we did not define the term 'synchronicity' - once we define it properly, then it is quite possible.

 

That's a good point, things need definition, otherwise we could well be talking about a voleyball ball a football ball and describe different things by referring to them as ball.

 

The definition of synchronicity I had in mind is the Jungian one, so a spiritual event ( be it dream, vision etc ) followed by physical events that are connected to the spiritual event but not causally connected.

E.g. you dream of X , whom you haven't talked to in 10 years and see they face a health issue, then next day , out of nowhere, you see them on the street and they say they do face that health issue.

Edited April 23 by snowymountains

[Taoist Texts]

2 hours ago, snowymountains said:

The definition of synchronicity I had in mind is the Jungian one, so a spiritual event ( be it dream, vision etc ) followed by physical events that are connected to the spiritual event but not causally connected.

excellent. now whoever figures out to what are these two events causally connected - will understand how magic works

[snowymountains]

4 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

excellent. now whoever figures out to what are these two events causally connected - will understand how magic works

 

I don't know what the events are, but to causally link them one would need other planes/dimensions a la Plato's cave ( or Jung's Unus Mundus ). Now as to what the events are there, no clue.

 

Another interesting nugget, this one not from my own, but from someone else's experiences ( without going into details publicly as it's someone else's stuff ), is that for the vision/dream component may [*] be linked to a different point in spacetime, which I found interesting. Without going into details I fully trust that experience as a genuine one.

 

[*] may, as in it could also be memories of the sort epigenetics describes and the physical part that followed can be a coincidence, impossible to tell if a candidate synchrinicity is after all just an odd coincidence.

Edited April 23 by snowymountains

[Taomeow]

I get synchronicities nearly every day.  Almost enough to convince me we live in a simulation.

 

I vividly remember the very first one -- I was 8 years old, spending a month in a summer camp.  Several girls in the corner of a very large room were talking about something while I was reading a book in another corner.  A name of a new protagonist came up in my book, a very unusual one -- unusual enough for me to have never encountered that name not only before, but ever again.  At exactly the moment my eyes were reading that name on the page, one of the girls across the room yelled it out excitedly -- that very name.  Turned out they were trying to remember an unusual name of someone they knew, and did, simultaneously with it appearing in front of my eyes.  

 

This particular kind of synchronicity has been happening to me with some regularity.  I wish I knew what it means.  I have several theories, but no definitive proof of anything...  

[snowymountains]

3 minutes ago, Taomeow said:

I get synchronicities nearly every day.  Almost enough to convince me we live in a simulation.

 

I vividly remember the very first one -- I was 8 years old, spending a month in a summer camp.  Several girls in the corner of a very large room were talking about something while I was reading a book in another corner.  A name of a new protagonist came up in my book, a very unusual one -- unusual enough for me to have never encountered that name not only before, but ever again.  At exactly the moment my eyes were reading that name on the page, one of the girls across the room yelled it out excitedly -- that very name.  Turned out they were trying to remember an unusual name of someone they knew, and did, simultaneously with it appearing in front of my eyes.  

 

This particular kind of synchronicity has been happening to me with some regularity.  I wish I knew what it means.  I have several theories, but no definitive proof of anything...  

 

As it's something that's impossible to prove and at the same time impossible disprove, it's like the universe is trolling us...

 

I ignore them because what is one to make out of them, fry their brain if it was a synchrinicity? Impossible to answer.

 

And let's say, for the sake of the argument, there even was a way to tell in retrospect.

Then what? What is one supposed to do with their next dream, assume it has predictive value and act on it? They're bound to be disappointed after 1-2-3 dreams.

Hence I ignore the cosmic trolling

[Sahaja]

8 hours ago, Neirong said:

 

It is more of a problem of dishonest claims they make during teaching to sell/push their info-business product to the masses. Even worse, they get knowledge from public books/sources and resell it as if their name has copyright on the tradition itself.

 

If people would sell Qigong classes casually for what it is. But, no they have to add that energy cures cancer/all kinds of diseases and grants enlightenment and immortality.

 

It is the same as saying that burnt paper is extremely valuable resource because it is literally same as diamond. Indeed, same carbon material, but not nearly the same quality.

 

I mean seriously, there are people around who think that simple body moves and simple qigong can turn you into an immortal, enlightened being and cure all ailments. Fragrant qigong? How much more delusional can it get?

 

Self-development is not in the same dimension as annunaki, homeopathy, astrology, flat earth, and ctulhu. People who believe any of that stuff are pretty much hopeless cases to teach.

 

How exactly would elixir make you immortal?

@Taoist Texts what kind of immortality do you expect from "internal alchemy" practices?

A part of it is your body producing the immortal medicine. However, it’s not really at the level of a practice. My understanding is it’s  more of an outcome to transformations that change how practices work and who you are. It does have a physical component to it related to the bodies  organ systems. I would say it’s not only part of certain alchemy lineages but is also referenced in certain old tantric yoga systems as well. 
 

we tend to approach things simply as practices as that’s the way the intellect works. However it’s much more subtle and  nuanced than that and way more difficult or so I’m told. Not something that arises from a few practices or reading a few books.  Probably requires substantial time in retreat from society, changes to the acquired mind and some feedback from others further along the path. 
 

I sometimes wonder if people really think through what it means to go beyond the acquired mind, if they really want to go through that much change to who they think they are. Though I don’t think you need to find a Taoist  immortal to learn about it just as you don’t need access to a Buddha to learn about Buddhist cultivation methods or a Yogic immortal to learn about yogic methods. Though I imagine it might help, haha. 

[forestofclarity]

54 minutes ago, Taomeow said:

I get synchronicities nearly every day.  Almost enough to convince me we live in a simulation.

 

How very synchronistic. I've been looking for a summation of different views on synchronicity. I have some theories as well, but am in a theory collecting mode right now. 

 

A fun one for me is one day, I went to a particular outdoor mall (Mall X) and decided to sit and watch the people drifting by. My mind drew an analogy to the inner states of mind--- this is how one might observe and relate thoughts/feelings. That night, I went to satsang type of activity. The teacher began to explain how to relax from being caught up in the mind. He said it was like going to Mall X, sitting down, and watching the people wander by. He'd never used that analogy before or since, nor had I explained what I had done.